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Pelosi takes responsibility for J6


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18 hours ago, robosmith said:

Trump told them to "stop the steal" and EVERYONE (but you) knew where the "steal" was being perpetrated. Duh

You believe they would "fight like hell" to "stop the steal" out on the steps of the Capitol? LMAO

IF you do, you really are a M0R0N.

No he's actually correct. But that's because many of us are not mindless liars. We prefer reality to warped trash.

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3 hours ago, Moonbox said:

You're right.  It was over 3 hours. 

Talk about some mental gymnastics and being plain bad at math. Even if we accept your timeline starting at 12:53, that is still not even 2 hours before Trump sent out the tweet saying to be peaceful. 

You don't just get to pretend like that doesn't count, when you were trying to claim he did nothing for 3 hours. 

Even then, the 12:53 time is dubious at best, because he was not even done speaking until it was just after 1:00. The 12:53 time is when the first small group of folks basically walked over some cheap temporary fencing... 

At that time no one knew what was going on or how serious anything would turn out being. Trump couldn't know, he was still on stage talking for crying out loud. But yeah, sure, throw that into your timeline where you claim he was sitting around doing nothing. 

Seriously, at this point, you are just being straight-up dishonest. It is pathetic. 

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3 hours ago, Hodad said:

Sure. "Well thought out." Like the idea that saying peaceful once in an hour of bombast and provocation means Trump didn't incite the attack. Because, wishful thinking. 🙄

No, Trump did not incite the attack. The dozen or so worst offenders had dubious intentions before Trump ever spoke... but you will claim his speech incited them?

The simple fact is that you don't care about the facts. Trump said to be peaceful, the vast majority of folks were in fact peaceful. The vast majority of folks who even got caught up doing anything criminal that day were peaceful, they wandered around and left.

But then, in the same breath you will sit here claiming he incited this violence, you will ignore Democrats "inciting" violence during the summer of violence around BLM protests. 

Give me a break. 

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12 hours ago, User said:

Talk about some mental gymnastics and being plain bad at math. Even if we accept your timeline starting at 12:53, that is still not even 2 hours before Trump sent out the tweet saying to be peaceful. 

The Capitol building was already overrun and people (and police officers) were already hurt.  Qanon Karen got shot a few minutes later.  If only she'd been watching a live feed of Donald's twitter.  🙄

I'm not sure how many different ways I can tell you that tweet was a hollow and worthless gesture.  The protestors obviously felt that way, especially since he'd just them up minutes before. All of the agencies, media figures, White House aides and even his freaking family were begging him to tell them to go home.  While all of this was happening, Donald sat there watching Fox News for hours, and refused to do so until 4:17, over three hours after the festivities began. 

The end result?  They left.  Imagine that!  

 

 

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2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The Capitol building was already overrun and people (and police officers) were already hurt. 

Not at 12:53.

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Qanon Karen got shot a few minutes later.  If only she'd been watching a live feed of Donald's twitter.  🙄

Babbit was shot at 2:44.

You are the ones claiming Trump was somehow in control of a rioting mob and if only he hit the magic stop button telling them to stop this could all have ended much sooner. 

Now you are here mocking the fact that Trump did in fact tell folks to be peaceful and Babbit was not watching. 

Duh. Glad you are coming around to my point. 

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I'm not sure how many different ways I can tell you that tweet was a hollow and worthless gesture.

The issue isn't what you think about it... its that you keep lying and trying to claim he did nothing. Now that I have shown you repeatedly he did more than nothing, you are just trying to downplay what he did. 

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The protestors obviously felt that way, especially since he'd just them up minutes before.

Oh, I see. So now you play both sides. Trump controlled the rioting mob with his tweets and then you say his tweets are worthless and didn't do anything. 

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

All of the agencies, media figures, White House aides and even his freaking family were begging him to tell them to go home.  While all of this was happening, Donald sat there watching Fox News for hours, and refused to do so until 4:17, over three hours after the festivities began. 

The end result?  They left.  Imagine that!  

Another outright lie. They did not all leave after that video. I already explained this. Members of Congress were still calling for help from the National Guard to clear the building and perimeter after this. The National Guard did not show up until after 5 and they were still clearing people and it was not until around 8 they declared it secured. 
 

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3 hours ago, User said:

Not at 12:53.

No, at 2:38, when Trump earnestly and valiantly lifted his fat fingers and sent his useless Tweet.  The point the damage was that the damage was already done, the Capitol was overrun, violence had already erupted, and Trump's limply tweeting "Be peaceful" after the fact. 

3 hours ago, User said:

Babbit was shot at 2:44.

Yes.  I wonder if she'd yet been able to read Dear Leader's heroic message of peace yet on Twitter.  🙄🙄🙄

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1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

No, at 2:38, when Trump earnestly and valiantly lifted his fat fingers and sent his useless Tweet.  The point the damage was that the damage was already done, the Capitol was overrun, violence had already erupted, and Trump's limply tweeting "Be peaceful" after the fact. 

You claimed he did nothing. Even after I corrected you, then you tried to play dumb games with the timeline, I corrected you again, and you still refuse to admit what you are doing and that you were wrong. 

No, the point was not that the damage was already done. The point is that you have repeatedly lied now and are twisting things to further your lie. 

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Yes.  I wonder if she'd yet been able to read Dear Leader's heroic message of peace yet on Twitter. 

It is your characterization that Trump had some control over a rioting mob that he could make them all stop. 

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15 minutes ago, User said:

You claimed he did nothing. Even after I corrected you, then you tried to play dumb games with the timeline, I corrected you again, and you still refuse to admit what you are doing and that you were wrong. 

Two problems:

First, your argument is pedantic.  Your are absolutely right that Trump didn't do "nothing".  In the over three hours the riot (that he instigated) unfolded, he watched it turn violent, he watched the capitol building get stormed, he sent a useless tweet after the fact about being peaceful, and then he probably ate some McDonald's, took a shit, and watched another hour or so of the coverage on Fox News.  So yeah...he didn't do "nothing" - just nothing positive, nothing serious, nothing worthwhile. 

Second, I never even made the claim.  🙃 

 

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5 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

 

Second, I never even made the claim.  🙃 

 

Yes, you did, and looking back it was a bit more specific:

"The fact that he watched the riot unfold for over three hours without saying anything should dispel any fanciful notions otherwise.  "

It was not just that he did nothing. It was that you tried to claim he didn't say anything. As I have clearly demonstrated, he did. That you don't think it was substantive enough doesn't change the fact that you are a liar and were wrong. Instead of owning up to this, you just keep playing these games and lying even more.  

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17 hours ago, User said:

It was not just that he did nothing. It was that you tried to claim he didn't say anything. As I have clearly demonstrated, he did.

Nonono.  If we're playing puerile games of pedantic reasoning, you said: 

19 hours ago, User said:

You claimed he did nothing.

I never said that.  That makes YOU a liar. 

....

....

Do you see how useless this sort of argument is? 🙄

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21 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I never said that.  That makes YOU a liar. 

....

....

Do you see how useless this sort of argument is? 🙄

Well, what you are doing is undoubtedly useless and just furthers what a liar you are being here. 

 

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1 hour ago, User said:

Well, what you are doing is undoubtedly useless and just furthers what a liar you are being here. 

So you don't actually want to debate anything meaningful here.  You just want to be a petty word-monger, and (according to those standards) you've proven yourself a liar anyways. 

🙄

 

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18 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

So you don't actually want to debate anything meaningful here.  You just want to be a petty word-monger, and (according to those standards) you've proven yourself a liar anyways. 

It is really pathetic how you are acting here. 

Your lying assertion was never anything meaningful to debate. It was easily disproven by anyone who cared to be honest about the timeline. Instead of simply admitting you were wrong, you have spent days and countless posts furthering the lie by trying to lie even more. 

 

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3 hours ago, User said:

It is really pathetic how you are acting here. 

I'm throwing your buffoonish nitpicking back in your face.  It is pathetic.  If you figure your winning argument is that Trump didn't literally say nothing, then sure, I'll concede that brilliant point to you.  🤣

A casual tweet saying "be peaceful" somehow balances out the fact that Trump whipped the mob up in the first place, threw gas on the fire with further deranged rhetoric as it unfolded, and sat around watching it on TV for hours while law enforcement, republican colleagues and even his family begged him to put a stop to it.  Maybe in alternate reality that makes sense...  

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12 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I'm throwing your buffoonish nitpicking back in your face.  It is pathetic.  If you figure your winning argument is that Trump didn't literally say nothing, then sure, I'll concede that brilliant point to you.  🤣

A casual tweet saying "be peaceful" somehow balances out the fact that Trump whipped the mob up in the first place, threw gas on the fire with further deranged rhetoric as it unfolded, and sat around watching it on TV for hours while law enforcement, republican colleagues and even his family begged him to put a stop to it.  Maybe in alternate reality that makes sense...  

It is no more buffoonish nitpicking to point out obvious facts about the timeline than for you to make exaggerated assertions. 

The problem was that instead of just admitting it, you tried to lie even more with defending the literal timeline, trying to change when it started and still claim 3 hours when even then it was maybe 2 and you tried to start the timeline when Trump was still speaking. 

Every step of the way, you had every chance to admit you were wrong or exaggerating, but instead, you proved how far you were willing to go to lie. 

But sure, now after days and many posts lying and obfuscating, you will "concede" but not really as you still go on to argue about it. 

You are trying to have it both ways... you sit here saying he had the power to rile the mob up with his tweets, but then he didn't have the power to calm them down with his tweets. Nevermind your continued lies about the timeline trying to claim when he finally posted the video they all left. You have lied repeatedly in this thread. 

As I have already pointed out before, the simple fact is that Trump had no power over a rioting mob. 

 

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1 hour ago, User said:

Every step of the way, you had every chance to admit you were wrong or exaggerating, but instead, you proved how far you were willing to go to lie. 

The only exaggeration here is the comically elevated importance you place on an insincere, perfunctory tweet made by that fat orange baboon long after chaos and violence erupted.  

It's the equivalent of whispering, "Guys, please stay calm" after a bar brawl you've instigated erupts, while you fade into the background watching it unfold, bottles smashing everywhere.  

1 hour ago, User said:

You are trying to have it both ways... you sit here saying he had the power to rile the mob up with his tweets, but then he didn't have the power to calm them down with his tweets.

I'm saying he spent two months riling up his retards, who he collected on January 6th and then sent off to the Capitol shouting "Fight for Trump!  Fight for Trump!"  

He then tried to join them, even attempting to grab the steering wheel of his car away from his Secret Service detail when they refused to let him.  

Rather than condemn the Jan 6 rioters, he praised and lauded them after the fact.  

In what clownworld do you figure he had nothing to do with the riot, or that he was trying to stop it?   

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9 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

The only exaggeration here is the comically elevated importance you place on an insincere, perfunctory tweet made by that fat orange baboon long after chaos and violence erupted.  

This argument differs entirely from your saying "nothing" and defending it as if he did nothing and your further lying to defend it literally. 

That has been and continues to be the point. 

10 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

It's the equivalent of whispering, "Guys, please stay calm" after a bar brawl you've instigated erupts, while you fade into the background watching it unfold, bottles smashing everywhere. 

It was, and continues to be, more than nothing. Less than 3 hours of doing nothing. 

Even in your analogy... even if someone did start a bar brawl... once a mindless fight breaks out, they certainly don't have much ability to stop it. 

That aside, Trump did not instigate any bar brawl. He held a peaceful rally, what was branded as a peaceful rally, and told folks to go continue to march in peace. 

Do you hold Democrats and BLM organizers/supporters as responsible for instigating all the summer long violence around BLM protests a few years ago too? Or... do you play the mostly peaceful card?

13 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

He then tried to join them, even attempting to grab the steering wheel of his car away from his Secret Service detail when they refused to let him.  

Tried to join them... to do what?

The dishonest implication you are making here is that he was going to join in the fighting. It was supposed to be a peaceful march. 

I am not interested in contested versions of events based on hearsay, when we have first hand accounts refuting it. 

19 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Rather than condemn the Jan 6 rioters, he praised and lauded them after the fact.  

Which after the fact?

He condemned what happened after the fact when he conceded to Biden. 

20 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

In what clownworld do you figure he had nothing to do with the riot, or that he was trying to stop it?   

Nothing to do with the riot? When was this the argument, when did I say this?

He certainly did try to stop it. You yourself lied trying to claim he had that power to stop it too, when he released the video. 

 

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3 hours ago, User said:

This argument differs entirely from your saying "nothing" and defending it as if he did nothing and your further lying to defend it literally. 

No, it doesn't.  Your various arguments collapse in on themselves as soon as you can't hide behind your strictly literal semantics.  Here's another example:

3 hours ago, User said:

Nothing to do with the riot? When was this the argument, when did I say this?

Everything you've said on this thread appears to deny Trump's culpability for the riot.  If that's not the case, here's your opportunity to clarify.  Otherwise, this is yet another example of deflection via petty semantics.  

3 hours ago, User said:

Even in your analogy... even if someone did start a bar brawl... once a mindless fight breaks out, they certainly don't have much ability to stop it. 

Since he instigated it in the first place, then it's absurd to assume that his feeble and transparent token of de-escalation was sincere or intended to have any effect. 

When Trump was told Mike Pence had been evacuated, he apparently said, "So what?" and instead of asking the mob to calm down, he went on another tirade about how Pence lacked courage.  This was 15 minutes before the heroic Gandhi-esqued tweet you keep talking about.  

As I've said (and you keep ignoring), his staff, his party members and even his family members begged him for hours to tell the rioters to stop and go home, and he refused.  

3 hours ago, User said:

Which after the fact?

He condemned what happened after the fact when he conceded to Biden. 

4:17, January 6th.  

His concession to Biden was an acknowledgement that he wasn't going to be allowed to stay president.  He's never given up on his lies about the election being stolen, has claimed he'll pardon most of the rioters convicted, and even claimed that they're patriots.  

So...yeah...he totally condemned them. 

3 hours ago, User said:

He certainly did try to stop it. You yourself lied trying to claim he had that power to stop it too, when he released the video. 

He did not try to stop it, as I've explained above.  Any suggestion otherwise is a joke, along with your BLM whataboutism.  

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13 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Everything you've said on this thread appears to deny Trump's culpability for the riot.  If that's not the case, here's your opportunity to clarify.  Otherwise, this is yet another example of deflection via petty semantics.  

Appears to deny. 

So, where did I say nothing to do with it?

I am not the one speaking these extreme exaggerations here; you are. So, you can't defend your own absurd claim about "nothing" and accuse me of saying it about something else instead. 

Trump clearly planned for and organized the peaceful protest that day... he had something to do with it, but no, he did not incite a riot in any illegal sense of the word. 

As I have already repeatedly questioned you on and you ignore, it is no different than how much Democrats are at fault for the summer of violence around the BLM protests. 

I fault Trump for his stupidity and acting like a clown and the constant lies... but he did not cause, plan for, promote, etc... the violence that day. 

13 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Since he instigated it in the first place, then it's absurd to assume that his feeble and transparent token of de-escalation was sincere or intended to have any effect. 

Now you are presuming motivations. I am not interested in your biased take on things, you can't even be honest about literal facts. 

13 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

His concession to Biden was an acknowledgement that he wasn't going to be allowed to stay president.  He's never given up on his lies about the election being stolen, has claimed he'll pardon most of the rioters convicted, and even claimed that they're patriots.  

So...yeah...he totally condemned them. 

Yes, he did condemn them for what they did that day:

"Like all Americans, I am outraged by the violence, lawlessness and mayhem."

"The demonstrators who infiltrated the Capitol have defiled the seat of American democracy. To those who engaged in the acts of violence and destruction, you do not represent our country."

You ignore this and try to conflate that with his not accepting the election results. 

Guess what? Democrats still think the election was stolen from Gore, that Hillary had the election stolen from her... hell, both of them still push that garbage too. 

Folks on this forum still push it right now. 

Do you think Gore lost fair and square?

13 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

He did not try to stop it, as I've explained above.  Any suggestion otherwise is a joke, along with your BLM whataboutism.  

You already admitted he tried to stop it with your lie, which you ignored in this response:

"You yourself lied trying to claim he had that power to stop it too, when he released the video. "

 

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1 minute ago, User said:

Appears to deny. 

So, where did I say nothing to do with it?

I asked you to clarify, and this is the best you're willing to do?  

3 minutes ago, User said:

Trump clearly planned for and organized the peaceful protest that day... he had something to do with it, but no, he did not incite a riot in any illegal sense of the word. 

He had "something" to do with it? 

He did not incite in "any illegal sense of the word"?  

If this sort of marble-mouthed nothing-speak is the debating standard you're going to stick to, I'm not even going to read the rest of your post.  

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59 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I asked you to clarify, and this is the best you're willing to do?  

It was. I wrote quite a bit, even honestly conceding what I have always thought about Trump's stupidity... and this is the best you are willing to do in response?

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

He had "something" to do with it? 

He did not incite in "any illegal sense of the word"?  

If this sort of marble-mouthed nothing-speak is the debating standard you're going to stick to, I'm not even going to read the rest of your post.  

Words have meaning and I earnestly try to use them correctly. 

Of course you are going to ignore my post... you have been doing that repeatedly throughout this thread when I throw the stupidity of your arguments back in your face. 

Let me guess, you do in fact question the Gore election, right?

Let me guess, you don't actually blame Pelosi or other Democrats like Harris for the violence all summer long around the BLM protests/riots. Right?

Let me know when you stop being a two-faced hypocrite on these things. 

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17 hours ago, User said:

It was. I wrote quite a bit, even honestly conceding what I have always thought about Trump's stupidity... and this is the best you are willing to do in response?

What you wrote was mealy-mouthed.  I said it appears you deny Trump's culpability in the riot, and asked you to clarify.  It was a simple question, with an affirmative or negative answer.  Your response was more dissembling and word-games:

22 hours ago, User said:

where did I say nothing to do with it?

22 hours ago, User said:

he had something to do with it, but no, he did not incite a riot in any illegal sense of the word.

22 hours ago, User said:

he did not cause, plan for, promote, etc... the violence that day. 

What am I to make of this?  He had not-nothing to do with it, apparently, but he did not incite a riot in any illegal sense of the word?  🙄

When you follow that up with a bunch of gratuitous projection and goofy whataboutism (whatabout BLM?  whatabout Al Gore?  whatabout, Hilary, Nancy Pelosi etc...), and in the same post accuse me of bias, I abandoned any notion that you were debating seriously and/or in good faith.  

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1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

What am I to make of this?  He had not-nothing to do with it, apparently, but he did not incite a riot in any illegal sense of the word? 

You are the one who keeps pushing the "nothing" to do with it line, it is an absolutist extreme position that if I agree to... would be silly and absurd, because clearly he had something to do with it all since he sought to have the very rally that day in the first place. 

Again, these are all your stupid games you are trying to play while I am trying to engage earnestly and honestly. 

The fact that you refuse to answer anything regarding Pelosi, BLM, etc... only shows how you are being a two faced lying hypocrite here. 

You are not arguing in good faith when you are here trying to blame Trump for January 6th and refuse to do the same for how Democrats like Pelosi contributed to the BLM violence. 

 

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3 hours ago, User said:

You are the one who keeps pushing the "nothing" to do with it line,

and that you're still hung up on, unable to move past lame petty semantics, that have already been clarified.  

3 hours ago, User said:

it is an absolutist extreme position that if I agree to... would be silly and absurd,

That was your hint, genius.  If the claim is that silly and absurd, why would you settle on the most absolute and literal, but least reasonable interpretation, rather than the less literal, far more reasonable one?  

Failing to recognize that isn't a big deal. What's lame is that you didn't just assume the dumbest meaning behind the words, you insisted on them, argued them for 3 pages, accused people of lying, and refused any attempts to clarify.  

That's what you call good faith debate?  Ookay.  🙄

3 hours ago, User said:

The fact that you refuse to answer anything regarding Pelosi, BLM, etc... only shows how you are being a two faced lying hypocrite here. 

You are not arguing in good faith when you are here trying to blame Trump for January 6th and refuse to do the same for how Democrats like Pelosi contributed to the BLM violence. 

No, this is just you projecting your tribal assumptions on me.  Nancy and Hilary caused the BLM riots.  Al Gore and the Democrats never conceded to Bush.  Now what?  😑

Edited by Moonbox
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