NDP = Communism... is that what 2 million canadians want?

[Slavik44]

I don't think they'd push for flat out communism. But the idea that they want to increase taxes (queue the NDP supporters to say this is not true) so they can push through their pet projects is a scary one. More government regulations and restrictions, especially on people's money, is exactly what we don't need at this time.

No its much better to regulate peoples personal lives, maybe set them up with a day planner...you could give them 10 minutes free from supervision.

[BubberMiley]

Scary pet projects like what? Daycare? That sends chills down my spine.

[scribblet]

Is it a fair statement to say that the NDP are socialists, and left wing? Is that not close to Communism?? Did they not at one point suggest "Free for all governement where there are no rich or poor" (jack layton speech from 2004)

Just like on the right, there's a whole spectrum of philosophies on the left. Being from the left doesn't make you a communist.

No it doesn't for sure, like all parties, they do have a radical wing, some parties on rabble are examples of extremists.

BC didn't do well under the NDP, neither did Ontario, so I don't see a Federal NDP being good for the economy. Inheritance taxes were proposed some time ago by the NDP, don't know for sure if it is still part of the platform, and they are dead against enshrining property rights in the Constitution. I do believe given the time, they would severely increase taxes for the 'rich', but I've never heard what their definition of rich is.

Actually, I don't think they are as far to the left as they used to be, but they scare me more than the conservatives ever would. Indeed, I would say that if any party has the tendency to become fascist (for use of a better word) it would be the NDP.

[geoffrey]

It blew me away when someone on this site mentioned that the NDP was the closest party to Communism. I think thats a fair statement.

Going from social Democrat to communism is one heck of a jump. The NDP is definitely not a communist party. It doesn't advocate the abolition of private property or inheritance nor does it want to nationalise big business. Read their platform, thread over.

Actually they'd love to ban inheritance, in fact, their first step is to tax off half of it. It's in the platform, its not even a 'hidden agenda'!

[BigGunner]

Actually they'd love to ban inheritance, in fact, their first step is to tax off half of it. It's in the platform, its not even a 'hidden agenda'!

Perhaps you didnt read their platform, it was NOT there...in fact, they learned from the 2004 campaign and tossed out that old pledge and said flat out in the last campaign that they would NOT go for an inheritance tax...even if America has one.

[geoffrey]

Actually they'd love to ban inheritance, in fact, their first step is to tax off half of it. It's in the platform, its not even a 'hidden agenda'!

Perhaps you didnt read their platform, it was NOT there...in fact, they learned from the 2004 campaign and tossed out that old pledge and said flat out in the last campaign that they would NOT go for an inheritance tax...even if America has one.

There goes the American reference. My apologies, I was looking at 2004.

[uOttawaMan]

SamStranger has far too much free time on his hands so he libels the NDP by calling them communist. What a waste of bandwidth. This is typical of conservative and liberals party hacks that cannot see the failings in their own party's agenda's so they blame the NDP...but to call them communist? Give me a break. Your infantile ranting against the NDP like this is sooooo stupid, that it makes you look like the extremist nutbar. Have a nice day, genius.

Anyone, with any intelligence whatsoever would leave this topic alone.

Is it a fair statement to say that the NDP are socialists, and left wing? Is that not close to Communism?? Did they not at one point suggest "Free for all governement where there are no rich or poor" (jack layton speech from 2004)

Don't critisize me because I am starting a debate. 6 people have voted with me saying that they would, or possibly would push for communism. Speak up fellow supporters!! Have your voices heard.

Did you ever consider the fact they might be doing it to goad you on? It's an online annoynomous poll... who gives a flying &$*#.

The NDP is moving more towards the centre all the time, simply because that's the type of party that gets elected in Canada. (see: Party, Liberal; and more recently : Party of Canada, Conservative.)

LoL and tml, my lil "left'wing utopia is starting to become severely confused, because I kinda hold opposing values. Such as this little blurb.

"Genetic researchers have been expelled, all recreational drugs are legal, military spending is on the increase, and organ donation is compulsory."

SO bascially.. my government says cloning is wrong, drugs are ok, we need a solid army, and health care is a top priority . 7 million people and a developing economy! w00t im 2nd World!

[concerned citizen]

The NDP started out as the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation (CCF) and it was a socialist party which many people associate with communism.

I believe that it is a moot point because the NDP will never come into power federally. As we have seen in past elections you need Ontario in order to form the gov't and Ontario will never forget what Bob Rae and the NDP did to it for the brief time they were in office.

[lost&outofcontrol]

Actually, I don't think they are as far to the left as they used to be, but they scare me more than the conservatives ever would. Indeed, I would say that if any party has the tendency to become fascist (for use of a better word) it would be the NDP.

I don't think you know what a fascist is, it's the exact opposite of a communist in every possible way.

[lost&outofcontrol]

I believe that it is a moot point because the NDP will never come into power federally. As we have seen in past elections you need Ontario in order to form the gov't and Ontario will never forget what Bob Rae and the NDP did to it for the brief time they were in office.

According to the latest poll the NDP are in a "dead heat" with the liberals in Ontario.

As a side note, I still don't understand all this hate towards the former Rae government especially with the government workers. He at least saved their jobs, Harris just cut them out of the budget altogether.

[Montgomery Burns]

Im not saying they are communists. Im saying that if they had a Majority, they would probably push for communism. Their wolves in sheeps clothing. They have such radical left wing views.

If we agree that Communism is the furthest to the left possible, then... why would be support a party that is also to the left? The Liberals are Centered to the left, just like the Conservatives are Centered to the right. But the NDP are right behind communism, im sure we can all agree on that?

Why do you think the NDP has been so moderate with the majority they've had for six years in Manitoba? They've reduced taxes and balanced the budget every year. They are very closely affiliated with the federal NDP and even had an election post-mortem with them a couple of weeks ago.

They've reduced taxes?

Manitoba's top Provincial Tax rate is a whopping 17.4% and it kicks in at only $65,001. Manitoba's Basic Personal Amount is only $7734. Were taxes actually higher than this? How do you keep your best and brightest there if you are soaking them in taxation?

[Montgomery Burns]

Scary pet projects like what? Daycare? That sends chills down my spine.

Me too...but I'm serious.

[Montgomery Burns]

I voted no. I don't think the NDP would push for communism. Some of us are still armed and our military isn't incapable. But the NDP would implement far-left policies. Look at the official NDP Constitution:

...That the production and distribution of goods and services shall be directed to meeting the social and individual needs of people within a sustainable environment and economy and not to the making of profit;

To modify and control the operations of the monopolistic productive and distributive organizations through economic and social planning. Towards these ends and where necessary the extension of the principle of social ownership;

... The New Democratic Party is proud to be associated with the democratic socialist parties of the world and to share the struggle for peace, international co-operation and the abolition of poverty.

And more:

We remain in the forefront of the people’s struggles : for labour rights, social justice and the environment; defending the rights of minorities, women, gays and lesbians; fighting for youth and students.

The struggle of the Canadian people for democracy, sovereignty, peace and social advance is essentially a political struggle against big business and its control of the Canadian State. The interests of the vast majority of Canadians are in conflict with the anti-democratic, neoliberal policies of the transnationals and the banks.

...offering a clear and consistent vision of a socialist Canada, where the priority is people’s needs, not corporate greed

Actually the last quote is from the official platform of the Communist Party of Canada.

Both loathe private business and both want an unmotivated population where everyone scrapes by from month to month with table scraps from the wealthy (but lives in subsidized housing) elitist Dear Leader.

[geoffrey]

Whenever a party has the exact words "social planning" and "social ownership" in the same sentance, I fear commuism.

[cybercoma]

Scary pet projects like what? Daycare? That sends chills down my spine.

I didn't say the pet projects were scary, I was saying the amount of money they would rape us for is scary. Socialism is obsolete, the United States didn't become the most powerful and innovated nation in the world because they micro-managed the economy.

[scribblet]

Scary pet projects like what? Daycare? That sends chills down my spine.

I didn't say the pet projects were scary, I was saying the amount of money they would rape us for is scary. Socialism is obsolete, the United States didn't become the most powerful and innovated nation in the world because they micro-managed the economy.

One only has to read the NDP constituion to know what they are really about.

Income tax is just a redistribution of wealth, a form of socialism, but I think all of us agree that there has to be a social safety net, we have to help the disabled and those who need help to get back on their feet. Most people agree with fully funded public education except for University.

What some of don't agree with is the extent of that, and and how much should be taken from the rich, and what the definition of rich is (in the NDP's eyes) IMHO people who envision a total nanny state are those who are less successful in life and so are envious of the success of others. They can't stand other people having more than they do so they try to take it away.

Layton is currently lobbying Harper to increase foreign aid payment, this is just a redistribution of wealth, as is Kyoto. I have no problem helping countries who put the aid to good use, but foreign aid should require more accountability.

[Spike22]

This is the funniest forum question yet. Good to start a debate however the communist party of Canada would fight tooth and nail that the NDP would be stealing thier ideas.

Don't think there is any support in Canada's a communist party? From the CPC's own website:

The Communist Party's own electoral campaign registered a modest improvement in the average vote among our 21 candidates, despite the highly polarized character of the election and the backward, undemocratic first-past-the-post electoral system. The campaign raised the visibility of the Party through increased coverage in the media, at all-candidates meetings, and on thousands of doorsteps. It is particularly significant that our party website received almost 100,000 visits (more than 4.2 million hits) during the campaign. Many more working and progressive-minded people, especially youth, are interested and attracted to our policies and socialist perspective.

YIKES!

[margrace]

Envy and greed go hand in hand. On one hand we have the people who do envy others success and then there are the ones who must control every cent they make and are so dismissive of the people who helped them get it.

We have unions because of the horrific labour practices of a lot of employers. Even today this is going on, Honda of Canada will fire anyone who needs health care in their employ and they have lost several court cases over this for illegal firings. Of course no one hears about it because one of their requirements of paying off , when they lose the court case, is that the employee concered sign a paper of non disclosure.

I agree on the other hand that there are people who envy people who succeed with no idea of the hard work and dedication it takes to get there. Jealousy in my opinion creates more problems in the world than any other emotion.

The third component in this is that despite the belief of such documents as the American one, people are not created equal. This is the problem that is never addressed.

In my observation over my three score years and ten I believe that for every child born with the true abilites to push ahead of the rest, there are five or more who do not have it. The problem is that the people born with these abilities believe it is their God given right to be the king of the castle and that the others have no rights.

The other problem today seems to be the huge increase in health problems of various degrees caused by the destroying of our environment by the top few with no concern of who they hurt.

The increases of autism, leukemia, lung diseases and many other environmental types puts a huge dent in the cost of health care. Did you know that a bone marrow transplant cost $250,000 and that is only the doctor and hospital costs. There is always extra costs in medicines and family loss of income.

It is also said that most families are only two paychecks away from using food banks. We have a false economy based on consumerism. If, as I have heard some men say, women should be staying at home and looking after their own children, no childcare. Then who would support the many products they would not be able to buy. I never hear anyone explain that one.

Any service provided by our goverment is socialist by its very definition. We could force the people unable to look after themselves into work houses as they did in the 19th century. But it seems to me that, like prisons, that too would be pretty costly. Doesn't it cost over $70,000 a year to keep someone in prison. The average income where I live is around $25,000 a year. Pretty costly way of wharehousing people.

And what other solutions are there. Yes after being involved in a food bank for 10 years there is the odd person I would like to give a boot. But there are so many more just trying to get enough to eat.

So what are your solutions, let them eat cake. Watch out that can come back to bite you, the French could tell you about that one.

[scribblet]

Envy and greed go hand in hand. On one hand we have the people who do envy others success and then there are the ones who must control every cent they make and are so dismissive of the people who helped them get it.

And what other solutions are there. Yes after being involved in a food bank for 10 years there is the odd person I would like to give a boot. But there are so many more just trying to get enough to eat.

So what are your solutions, let them eat cake. Watch out that can come back to bite you, the French could tell you about that one.

No one has ever said people should not be helped, and as I said most agree with a social safety net. What they don't agree with is welfare for life for able bodied people. Nor do they agree with all people being equally poor, but to compare Canada with France is assinine.

"The best form of welfare is a job"

[margrace]

Envy and greed go hand in hand. On one hand we have the people who do envy others success and then there are the ones who must control every cent they make and are so dismissive of the people who helped them get it.

And what other solutions are there. Yes after being involved in a food bank for 10 years there is the odd person I would like to give a boot. But there are so many more just trying to get enough to eat.

So what are your solutions, let them eat cake. Watch out that can come back to bite you, the French could tell you about that one.

No one has ever said people should not be helped, and as I said most agree with a social safety net. What they don't agree with is welfare for life for able bodied people. Nor do they agree with all people being equally poor, but to compare Canada with France is assinine.

"The best form of welfare is a job"

Would you please give me an idea of what you mean by welfare for life for able bodied people.

Yes a good job is the best thing to have but in this age of technicality a lot of able bodied people are unable to do those jobs. My grandfather was a very self educated literate man who loved to garden. He loved to dig ditches. Where would he work today?

[Spike22]

And what other solutions are there. Yes after being involved in a food bank for 10 years there is the odd person I would like to give a boot. But there are so many more just trying to get enough to eat.

So what are your solutions, let them eat cake. Watch out that can come back to bite you, the French could tell you about that one.

Yes let them eat cake with a little ice cream on the side.

Yes we are fortunate to be able to afford a social safety net here and Canada and I fully support it to an extent food banks, proper housing, work programs etc.

However I see enough lazy ar*seholes that are unwilling to relocate for a job or don't want a low end starting position and unwed teens having their second or third child that we the taxpayer have to take care of it gets a little nauseating.

[lost&outofcontrol]

We remain in the forefront of the people’s struggles : for labour rights, social justice and the environment; defending the rights of minorities, women, gays and lesbians; fighting for youth and students.

The struggle of the Canadian people for democracy, sovereignty, peace and social advance is essentially a political struggle against big business and its control of the Canadian State. The interests of the vast majority of Canadians are in conflict with the anti-democratic, neoliberal policies of the transnationals and the banks.

...offering a clear and consistent vision of a socialist Canada, where the priority is people’s needs, not corporate greed

Actually the last quote is from the official platform of the Communist Party of Canada.

Both loathe private business and both want an unmotivated population where everyone scrapes by from month to month with table scraps from the wealthy (but lives in subsidized housing) elitist Dear Leader.

I'd like to know why you think that last quote is wrong/bad ? I'm not judging you by the way or anything.

In a communist world, there is no "wealthy to live off and no elitist leaders. The whole point of living isn't trying to amass capital (hence control over others) anymore, it's to enrich your life. I don't know about you but working 4 days a week with 7 hrs shifts while learning and understanding the world better sounds pretty sweet to me. The problem I think people have is that they look at a communist world through capitalist eyes. I know I'm opening a can of worms here but I'd like to keep the flames to a minimum.

[Hicksey]

I have no doubt that 2 million fools want this. And if they want it, let them have it. I am out of here in that case though...

Sweet ! What part of Canada do you give us

Nunavut.

[arif]

It's like being afraid that the Conservatives would go as far as Social Darwinism.

I think the centre will always hold the balance of power as long as a healthy democracy is in place, an NDP government would end up being centrist, although we would hope that being in power they would have the interests of all in mind.

We have to give the work of social democrats some credit. It's that movement that ensured we don't have child labour, that we have universal health care etc. If you look at what happens in a liberalized economy where the labour movement hasn't been successful in protecting people, look no further than the vast pools of cheap labour in developing countries and the conditions under which people must work because it is the only choice.

If I'm running a company, i'd be happier knowing that my competitors and I all had to follow some rules regarding employees, so I know that I can offer them employment that sustains their quality of life without losing the competition. When that happens all across the world, we won't have companies factories leaving for poor countries where they don't have to respect labour laws. That wouldn't be communism, it would be truly free trade, trade where companies can do business where they want (freedom of the market), and trade that promotes emancipation (freedom of people). Freedom is not equated just with doing what you like, it's equated with making your own choices, the choice to work and live in dignity, the choice for a company to compete while securing its workers rights.

So if you have the emancipatory energies of the market and the emancipatory energies of the community, they may seem to oppose, but like the yin and yang, they can work together.

I think the NDP or the Conservatives, if they are to succeed, should avoid an ideology that pushes itself away from its opposite and more extreme, and see how integrating the opposing ideology actually benefits their ends, be those prosperity, justice, peace, security, health and all.

But it's not just up to the party, it's up to the people - and it's because we have a dialogue that we don't go to the extreme.

Arif

[geoffrey]

I'd like to know why you think that last quote is wrong/bad ? I'm not judging you by the way or anything.

In a communist world, there is no "wealthy to live off and no elitist leaders. The whole point of living isn't trying to amass capital (hence control over others) anymore, it's to enrich your life. I don't know about you but working 4 days a week with 7 hrs shifts while learning and understanding the world better sounds pretty sweet to me. The problem I think people have is that they look at a communist world through capitalist eyes. I know I'm opening a can of worms here but I'd like to keep the flames to a minimum.

So no motivation to actually work. I know if communism came to Canada, I'd never lift a finger.

I can tell you right now, that people aren't equal. Give up on this. Some people are better than others. They need to be paid and have status accordingly to encourage those below to work their way up to that level. Otherwise, economic collapse happens. I'm sure 4 day weeks at 7 hours would be nice... especially when your living in a straw hut with no TV or car because the country is broke and nothing is being manufactured.

Where do you think all the stuff in your life comes from? Thin air? No, people work to make that.

Look at the Soviet Union. Is that the life you want to live? If so, Cuba awaits your arrival. Thats what communism is really, poverty for everyone.