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Elvis: "...gays want to be gay..." I hate to break it to you, but gay people don't choose to be gay any more than straight people choose to be straight.

Sorry but YES THEY DO... Were all born as God made us, Straight!!! Adam and Eve!!! get the point???

We all have Fathers and Mothers, not fathers and fathers, or mothers and mothers.

Every year there are hundreds of gay teenagers who commit suicide because they want to be straight but can't. NO THEY DON'T.

If you are born Adam and Eve, you are a hermaphrodite. Copulate with thyself.

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Notice how 20 years ago gays were a lot more rare than they are now,

There were as many gays then as now. It is only that back then, you could be fired from your job on the simple suspicion you were gay. Or thrown out of your appartment. Or harassed by cops.

Ever heard of gay bashing?

You could even murder a gay person and get acquitted if you claimed that the (dead) gay guy made a pass at you. Miss the "good old days"?

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Notice how 20 years ago gays were a lot more rare than they are now,

There were as many gays then as now. It is only that back then, you could be fired from your job on the simple suspicion you were gay. Or thrown out of your appartment. Or harassed by cops.

Ever heard of gay bashing?

You could even murder a gay person and get acquitted if you claimed that the (dead) gay guy made a pass at you. Miss the "good old days"?

If a gay guy made a pass at me, I'd inform him that I'm straight. If he continued, I'd leave his presence. If he persisted, I'd have to assume he was infringing on my right not to be gay and defend myself if necessary, but if I saw a one-sided fight between a gay male who had done nothing wrong and a bunch of thugs who hated gays, I'd do my best to defend the gay male. Firing someone, killing them, hitting them, suing them or otherwise being mean to them based on sexuality is wrong. All men are created equal, and I stand by that. People have no right to hurt gays for being gay. BUT research where marriage came from and you'll see where I stand. A premiscious man who cheats on his fiancee should not be allowed to marry her. Anyone who cannot keep it in their pants except with their husband or wife should not be allowed to marry. Marriage is between a man and a woman, you know the routine. Now this bit about the gay suicides due to wanting to be heterosexual, are you kidding me? I want to have been born with 12" reproductive organ, but I'm not going to kill myself over it. I doubt they committed suicide because they couldnt convert to liking women, they probably did it because of the intense stress involved in being socially abnormal. I'm not even saying they could have made that choice, I'm saying it didn't necessarily stem from a genetics code which randomly puts a gay individual into the gene pool. What kind of childhoods did these people have? were they ever molested? were they exposed to the gay lifestyle? These can be factors that contribute to a person becoming gay. I know many women that were sexually abused or raped became very premiscious afterwards, if I was mentally and physically raped by a male figure or exposed to the gay community regularly, I'd probably see it as an option. In my entire family, one of us is suspected of being gay, my cousin. We all had great parents and a good upbringing except for him and his 2 brothers. He, the oldest, was the most exposed to his biological fathers abuse. He was hit, kicked, allowed to watch porn at a young age, now he's into tiffany lamps and victorian trim on mid-western architecture. He has many female friends, but has dated none, talks with a lisp and shows great admiration towards male actors. I treat him like I would anyone else but doesn't this reinforce my theory? Maybe somehow genetics plays a role but sexuality is something we learn, not something that forces our mind in a certian direction.

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Sorry but YES THEY DO... Were all born as God made us, Straight!!! Adam and Eve!!! get the point???

We all have Fathers and Mothers, not fathers and fathers, or mothers and mothers.

Funny, I don't remember getting the form that indicated which sexual orientaton I want. It just so happened that by the time I started to get interested in such matters, my attention turned to girls. SO no, it's not a "choice". If it is, I'll make you a bet: for $500, I want you to be gay for a week.

Deal, and I'll offer you $500 to eat kittens and kill nuns for a week. The fact that you dislike killing nuns and eating kittens isn't because you happen to be genetically opposed to such things, but the fact that you were raised in a decent society with morals and learned inhibitions, restraints, and well right from wrong. Enjoy the kittens.

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Deal, and I'll offer you $500 to eat kittens and kill nuns for a week. The fact that you dislike killing nuns and eating kittens isn't because you happen to be genetically opposed to such things, but the fact that you were raised in a decent society with morals and learned inhibitions, restraints, and well right from wrong. Enjoy the kittens.

Ah... i don't see how eating kittens and killing nuns relates to being gay. If I wanted to, I could go from being a kitten eater and back in a week. I couldn't just become gay if I wanted to. Nice try though.

BUT research where marriage came from and you'll see where I stand.

Marriage was originally defined such that the woman (or in many cases, women) were the property of the man. Do you stand for that, as well?

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Deal, and I'll offer you $500 to eat kittens and kill nuns for a week. The fact that you dislike killing nuns and eating kittens isn't because you happen to be genetically opposed to such things, but the fact that you were raised in a decent society with morals and learned inhibitions, restraints, and well right from wrong. Enjoy the kittens.

Ah... i don't see how eating kittens and killing nuns relates to being gay. If I wanted to, I could go from being a kitten eater and back in a week. I couldn't just become gay if I wanted to. Nice try though.

BUT research where marriage came from and you'll see where I stand.

Marriage was originally defined such that the woman (or in many cases, women) were the property of the man. Do you stand for that, as well?

You missed my point by a mile. He wants me to be gay for a week based on the thought that being gay is genetic. I want him to eat kittens and kill nuns because that would represent the same state of mind as if i were to eat kittens and kill uns for a week, why doesnt he eat kittens and kill nuns? because of genetics or because of his upbringing? As far as being a man's property, that depends on the defenition and translation, My cat is my property but that doesnt give me the right to beat it. I don't consider my girlfriend my property, but i am more hersd than I am anyone else's.

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I apologize to all the gays, lesbians, trans, or bi's out their... but I am soooo against SSM that its not even funny. Aparently Paul Martin went to a confession booth at a Catholic Church in Montreal and begged for forgiveness for changing the traditional definition of marriage.

Hypo-f**king-crit eh?

How would you know this? Are you his priest? Have you bugged the confessionals?

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I apologize to all the gays, lesbians, trans, or bi's out their... but I am soooo against SSM that its not even funny. Aparently Paul Martin went to a confession booth at a Catholic Church in Montreal and begged for forgiveness for changing the traditional definition of marriage.

Hypo-f**king-crit eh?

How would you know this? Are you his priest? Have you bugged the confessionals?

Good call. Sam your not helping the cause, there is no way anyone would know that and I know for a fact Martin wouldn't admit that.

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I apologize to all the gays, lesbians, trans, or bi's out their... but I am soooo against SSM that its not even funny. Aparently Paul Martin went to a confession booth at a Catholic Church in Montreal and begged for forgiveness for changing the traditional definition of marriage.

Hypo-f**king-crit eh?

How would you know this? Are you his priest? Have you bugged the confessionals?

Good call. Sam your not helping the cause, there is no way anyone would know that and I know for a fact Martin wouldn't admit that.

Actually, I read that in the Toronto Sun but I quoted it wrong. What it said what that Martin met with some religious leaders, Mainly Christian, and told them he did not support SSM and he was ashamed of his decision. That is a solid fact from the newspaper, I don't recall the exsact issue, I read it at a coffee shop :P:P

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Yeah, I could see someone being gay due to an unusual upbringing, influence of peers, whatever happens during childhood could have an impact on our sexuality, but if you want to tell me that people are born who genitically cannot use their reproductive organs for reproduction, onlt sexual pleasure, id say theres something wrong in the genetics pool. I can live with some people grow up to be attracted to the same sex, but then your body wasnt made to suit you.

Funny how people keep harping on the sexual incompatability of same-sex couples. As though that has ever deterred anyone....

Notice how 20 years ago gays were a lot more rare than they are now, and in that time its become so socially acceptable to be gay that it's almost a crime if you don't fully support it? You would think this change in attitude may have helped the gay trend a bit.

I doubt homosexuality is actually more prevelant now than at anytime in the past. I think the increased acceptance of such (in the west, at least) has meant its okay to come out as gay. I definitely don't think it has anything to do with people hopping on the bandwagon. :rolleyes:

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...What kind of childhoods did these people have? were they ever molested? were they exposed to the gay lifestyle? These can be factors that contribute to a person becoming gay. I know many women that were sexually abused or raped became very premiscious afterwards, if I was mentally and physically raped by a male figure or exposed to the gay community regularly, I'd probably see it as an option. In my entire family, one of us is suspected of being gay, my cousin. We all had great parents and a good upbringing except for him and his 2 brothers. He, the oldest, was the most exposed to his biological fathers abuse. He was hit, kicked, allowed to watch porn at a young age, now he's into tiffany lamps and victorian trim on mid-western architecture. He has many female friends, but has dated none, talks with a lisp and shows great admiration towards male actors. I treat him like I would anyone else but doesn't this reinforce my theory? Maybe somehow genetics plays a role but sexuality is something we learn, not something that forces our mind in a certian direction.

I grew up in what was probably the ideal family. My parents worked hard, saved, and gave me and my siblings a pretty good life. My parents remained married till my father died a few years ago. I played sports as a kid. I attended Catholic grammar school and Catholic high school, college and eventually graduate school. I was never physically nor emotionally abused. I knew absolutely no gay people when growing up and my only exposure to gay people was via negative comments and jokes by peers and family members. I dated women in an attempt to fit in, but I knew from an extremely early age (perhaps before kindergarten, even) that I was different from the other boys. While I can't know with scientific accuracy, I heavily suspect that I was born gay. At no point in my life did I choose this aspect of my overall character. None of my gay friends ever chose to be gay. None of my straight friends ever chose to be straight. It is not a choice.

As for your cousin, perhaps he was abused because his father saw something in him that he didn't like -- his homosexuality?

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You missed my point by a mile. He wants me to be gay for a week based on the thought that being gay is genetic. I want him to eat kittens and kill nuns because that would represent the same state of mind as if i were to eat kittens and kill uns for a week, why doesnt he eat kittens and kill nuns? because of genetics or because of his upbringing? As far as being a man's property, that depends on the defenition and translation, My cat is my property but that doesnt give me the right to beat it. I don't consider my girlfriend my property, but i am more hersd than I am anyone else's.

Well one of us is missing the point, that's for sure. The way I understand it, he wanted you to be gay for a week because we all know you can't do that. It would be like me trying to become a 6-foot 5 black guy for the week, it's just not something one can make a choice about. You then replied and asked him to eat kittens for a week. I could make a choice about eating kittens.

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You missed my point by a mile. He wants me to be gay for a week based on the thought that being gay is genetic. I want him to eat kittens and kill nuns because that would represent the same state of mind as if i were to eat kittens and kill uns for a week, why doesnt he eat kittens and kill nuns? because of genetics or because of his upbringing? As far as being a man's property, that depends on the defenition and translation, My cat is my property but that doesnt give me the right to beat it. I don't consider my girlfriend my property, but i am more hersd than I am anyone else's.

Well one of us is missing the point, that's for sure. The way I understand it, he wanted you to be gay for a week because we all know you can't do that. It would be like me trying to become a 6-foot 5 black guy for the week, it's just not something one can make a choice about. You then replied and asked him to eat kittens for a week. I could make a choice about eating kittens.

I'm still having a hard time accepting that genetically, our bodies can decide that our reproductive organs will never be used to reproduce, if that makes any sense? I know some people are born blind or deaf, but those are birth defects which have a cause, if being gay is a genetic anomoly, what could the cause be? Would you come to the same conclusion with a person who grows up to be shy, outgoing, responsible or irresponsible? All of these things seem to be traceable back to a person's upbringing if you look into the psychology involved. If you, na85 I believe, had a "normal" childhood with the conditions you stated and your gay friends are the same way, there is definately a hole in my theory, and I can't think of a similar example where genetics alone interfered with a persons actual personality. Yes you could make a choice about eating kittens, but unless you were raised in the wild or as a complete nut, I seriously doubt you could force yourself to do it based on your upbringing.

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I'm still having a hard time accepting that genetically, our bodies can decide that our reproductive organs will never be used to reproduce, if that makes any sense? I know some people are born blind or deaf, but those are birth defects which have a cause, if being gay is a genetic anomoly, what could the cause be? Would you come to the same conclusion with a person who grows up to be shy, outgoing, responsible or irresponsible? All of these things seem to be traceable back to a person's upbringing if you look into the psychology involved. If you, na85 I believe, had a "normal" childhood with the conditions you stated and your gay friends are the same way, there is definately a hole in my theory, and I can't think of a similar example where genetics alone interfered with a persons actual personality. Yes you could make a choice about eating kittens, but unless you were raised in the wild or as a complete nut, I seriously doubt you could force yourself to do it based on your upbringing.

Ahh okay I see where you're coming from now. That's an interesting point. I myself think I had a fairly normal childhood. Both my parents are around and they have a healthy marriage, I went to a public school (french immersion woot!) and got picked on about what I would judge is the average amount for someone who wasn't cool until high school/university. I am straight. I have several gay friends who grew up in similar conditions. There isn't much difference to speak of in our childhoods. One of my gay friends' father moved out, I believe they are divorced. However other gay friends have intact families.

To the best of my logical reasoning, the reasons behind the difference must be some genetic factor since our upbringings were so similar, perhaps a soft impressionable area of the psyche that is shaped during infancy/puberty?

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Insom,

Anyone that actually argues that most gays are that way by choice is completely wrong, science is against ya here buddy. Homosexuality occurs in nature and one of the biological explainations is its genetically there as a form of evolutionary population control.

There are a very select few that conduct those activites for attention or what not, but then, they aren't really homosexual in orientation right, just in practice.

Gay people are gay, it isn't a choice.

--

(I bet half the people here are choking after hearing that from me) <_<

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Funny how people keep harping on the sexual incompatability of same-sex couples.

It is a very arrogant point of view, isn't it? It essentially boils down to "people are different from me, thus there's something profoundly wrong with them."

I like haggis. If you don't like haggis, there's something seriously wrong with you, and if it's genetic, BOY is there something wrong with the gene pool! :lol:

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Insom,

Anyone that actually argues that most gays are that way by choice is completely wrong, science is against ya here buddy. Homosexuality occurs in nature and one of the biological explainations is its genetically there as a form of evolutionary population control.

There are a very select few that conduct those activites for attention or what not, but then, they aren't really homosexual in orientation right, just in practice.

Gay people are gay, it isn't a choice.

--

(I bet half the people here are choking after hearing that from me) <_<

Sorry but thats HORSE SHIT. They had a scientist on Larry King (CNN) that said for every scientist that says Homosexuality is not a choice, theirs a sceientist that says it is a choice. I believe, and know, that it is a choice. For example... right now Im atttracted to females ( my wife mainly :P ) Now... in high school I remember questioning being gay because I would woodies in the shower for no apparent reason <_< So, why today am i married to a women?? I chose to be with females because males were meant for females, just like Adam and Eve. I could have easily decided in high school that I would be gay because I kept getting hard on's in the shower... but I ignored that and followed the natural coarse of life, MEN BEING WITH WOMEN. Now... if being gay is not a choice, then why do 39% of gay guys turn straight, and 9% of straight guys go gay??? Because... they realize it is a sin, and its their choice to change it!!! Ever hear of "Christs gays" or something... its a church that converts gays into straights, and they actually do it.

Point proven, case closed. :P:P

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Sorry but thats HORSE SHIT. They had a scientist on Larry King (CNN) that said for every scientist that says Homosexuality is not a choice, theirs a sceientist that says it is a choice. I believe, and know, that it is a choice. For example... right now Im atttracted to females ( my wife mainly tongue.gif ) Now... in high school I remember questioning being gay because I would woodies in the shower for no apparent reason dry.gif So, why today am i married to a women?? I chose to be with females because males were meant for females, just like Adam and Eve. I could have easily decided in high school that I would be gay because I kept getting hard on's in the shower... but I ignored that and followed the natural coarse of life, MEN BEING WITH WOMEN. Now... if being gay is not a choice, then why do 39% of gay guys turn straight, and 9% of straight guys go gay??? Because... they realize it is a sin, and its their choice to change it!!! Ever hear of "Christs gays" or something... its a church that converts gays into straights, and they actually do it.

Point proven, case closed. tongue.gif tongue.gif

SamStranger:

It seems pretty obvious to me that you're bisexual. There's nothing wrong with that. I've read that 90% of people aren't "strictly" gay or straight. I'm in the 10% that are, though, (straight) and I have never had to make anything like a "choice" about my sexuality.

It's natural to assume that the the rest of the world is like us, but in the case of sexual preference I and many others are different from your experience. We were born with a distinct sexual preference and never had the choice. Therefore, it wouldn't be fair to discriminate against us based on that, would it ?

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Sam:

Sorry but I am totally straight, i havent had any sexual thought for a man EVER, I indeed questioned myself in high school some 20 years ago, but I am straight.

Ok, well, I based my idea on your story of what happened to you - and on the fact that many men I've known who believe sexuality is a "choice" seem to have had to make that "choice" themselves.

But you know better than I do.

My point stands, though: many people did not make any kind of choice about their sexuality.

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Sorry but I am totally straight, i havent had any sexual thought for a man EVER, I indeed questioned myself in high school some 20 years ago, but I am straight.

I'm sorry, but that just contradicted what you said in an earlier post..

I'm straight, and I don't see what the big deal is, let people love who they love and get on with your life.

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Sorry but thats HORSE SHIT. They had a scientist on Larry King (CNN) that said for every scientist that says Homosexuality is not a choice, theirs a sceientist that says it is a choice. I believe, and know, that it is a choice. For example... right now Im atttracted to females ( my wife mainly :P ) Now... in high school I remember questioning being gay because I would woodies in the shower for no apparent reason <_< So, why today am i married to a women?? I chose to be with females because males were meant for females, just like Adam and Eve. I could have easily decided in high school that I would be gay because I kept getting hard on's in the shower... but I ignored that and followed the natural coarse of life, MEN BEING WITH WOMEN. Now... if being gay is not a choice, then why do 39% of gay guys turn straight, and 9% of straight guys go gay??? Because... they realize it is a sin, and its their choice to change it!!! Ever hear of "Christs gays" or something... its a church that converts gays into straights, and they actually do it.

Point proven, case closed. :P:P

Sam, I am not going to make any assumptions about your orientation because the honesty of your answer here requires a respectful answer.

First, your physical reaction in high school is not uncommon for straight boys. Lots of boys have similar experiences and it does not mean that they are gay. I remember lots of kids having the same response at that age -- it's in the wiring of our bodies to have the most embarrassing things happen at the worst times at that age (it's called a spontaneous erect!on). That experience, alone, does not mean that you are gay or that you have the capacity to be gay.

Second, people cannot decide to be gay, nor can they decide to be straight. At most, people can decide whether or not to act on their natural attractions or to deny those natural attractions. I, as a gay man, could easily decide that I was going to deny who I am and find a nice girl to marry and make a family with. But I would always know that doing so would be at the expense of living a truly happy life because I would need to shut down part of who I am to attain that. Would I be gay or straight? I would still be a gay man who was trying to live a straight life.

What matters is who the person is on the inside, not what public image he projects based on a "hetero" wedding ring on his finger. I know plenty of gay men who tried to be straight, who married women, but found themselves later in life extremely unhappy and depressed. They could not decide away their true nature. Ultimately, that is why the ex-gay movement is not effective. Contrary to what you say, the ex-gay movement is not a success. It does not change anyone's orientation. At most it shames, guilts and coerces people to drop their "sinful" and "wicked" nature, to bottle it up, to crawl back into the closet and try to be a good, faith-based straight man or woman. The problem is that there is an overwhelming failure rate in such conversions -- even to the point that several prominent leaders of such movements have been discovered back in gay bars or posting their profiles on gay cruising websites. It's all a sham.

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Sam, I am not going to make any assumptions about your orientation because the honesty of your answer here requires a respectful answer.

Liam, i respectfully disagree. Sam's incoherent babbling deserves no such respect. Allow me to demonstrate:

Sorry but thats HORSE SHIT. They had a scientist on Larry King (CNN) that said for every scientist that says Homosexuality is not a choice, theirs a sceientist that says it is a choice.

Oh well, an unnamed "scientist" on a cable talk show: that's pretty solid stuff. :rolleyes:

For example... right now Im atttracted to females ( my wife mainly ) Now... in high school I remember questioning being gay because I would woodies in the shower for no apparent reason. So, why today am i married to a women?? I chose to be with females because males were meant for females, just like Adam and Eve. I could have easily decided in high school that I would be gay because I kept getting hard on's in the shower... but I ignored that and followed the natural coarse of life, MEN BEING WITH WOMEN.

Given your pig-ignorance of biology, it's no surprise that you can't grasp hat sexuality is not a choice. Like, you should know that erections often occur spontaneously without any stimuli. For example, I'm heterosexual, but there's times when I'm around women and I don't get a boner at all!!! Now, by your logic, that would make me queer as a cowboy.

Now... if being gay is not a choice, then why do 39% of gay guys turn straight, and 9% of straight guys go gay??? Because... they realize it is a sin, and its their choice to change it!!! Ever hear of "Christs gays" or something... its a church that converts gays into straights, and they actually do it.

Where are you pulling your statistics from? I expect its from where you pull the rest of your arguments: from your unsullied ass. All "gay conversion therapy" does is use shame, guilt and psychological torture to repress natural sexual desires. In short: it's a way of driving peope into the closetn ot "curing" people.

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Sam, I am not going to make any assumptions about your orientation because the honesty of your answer here requires a respectful answer.

Liam, i respectfully disagree. Sam's incoherent babbling deserves no such respect.

I just wanted to approach this in a friendly manner as people often get defensive and angry when accosted. I'd rather keep this an open dialogue (but absolutely don't mean to say that I'm looking down the approach of your reponse. :D ) What's the saying... you catch more flies with honey...

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