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Former Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney has died at 84.


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14 minutes ago, eyeball said:

For what? Just because i didn't know kim campbell actually ran in the election? look -  we both know i'm pretty ignorant about politics and history, so i'm sorry already

Well fair enough sounds like we've put that to bed .

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4 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Just because i didn't know kim campbell actually ran in the election?

Okay, so now you realize Mulroney didn't personally lead the Conservatives into defeat.  Is there anything else you need to know?

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32 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Okay, so now I realize Mulroney didn't have anything to do with that election, unlike my previous statements.

Well glad you finally admit you were wrong and that it was campbell who lead them.

See? You CAN learn if you REALLY apply yourself.

As you now realize your previous claim that mulroney was involved in the last election was quite wrong.

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21 hours ago, taxme said:

No big loss for Canada. For a conservative, i was surprised when he gave us all the GST. That was not a very nice conservative thing to have done at all. Bulroney was just like the rest. He believed in more government, more taxes and less freedom. He didn't help make Canada great. He made it even worse. But what can one expect from a liberal wearing conservative clothing. Stop praising a guy who really did nothing for Canada. 👎 Just my opinion.

Mulroney was hardly in a fiscal position to radically reduce the tax burden after the conspicuous spending of the Trudeau years. If we accept that, then aren’t consumption taxes generally more favoured by conservatives than, say, income taxes? The GST’s survival ever since speaks to its effectiveness as a policy. I think it would be less unpopular if it was hidden in the cost of the item but other legislation made that change impossible at the time. One annoying thing, in my part of Canada at least, is buying a pricey item like a car. The sales people inevitably quote the price sans the taxes, not what I really have to pay, which makes me want to walk out immediately. 

The free trade deal with America was not nothing - it was exactly what most conservatives and many others consider an intrinsically good thing. Indeed, the Americans had to be persuaded to take that plunge as well as the Canadian public. Although an unpopular policy at first that made Mulroney’s life considerably more difficult, he persisted and risked his job over it.

Unlike Trudeau, whose career loomed over both him and Chrétien, he was no intellectual - it is said he preferred policy options to be made as simple as possible, sometimes in cartoon form - but he had excellent instincts. NAFTA, the GST and many other initiatives are testimony to that. We needed such pragmatism at that time. 

Politics is the art of the possible. Any leader who moves too far from the mainstream will fail. Canada’s centre is considerably to the left of America’s and that’s how it is. 

Here is one assessment of Mulroney’s legacy. For monoglot dunces like me, the English starts around 3.40:


In my opinion, Poilievre would do well to give more speeches like this which echo Mulroney’s style somewhat. It was touching. Zingers about the government have their place but voters also need inspiration. 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Mulroney was hardly in a fiscal position to radically reduce the tax burden after the conspicuous spending of the Trudeau years. If we accept that, then aren’t consumption taxes generally more favoured by conservatives than, say, income taxes? The GST’s survival ever since speaks to its effectiveness as a policy. I think it would be less unpopular if it was hidden in the cost of the item but other legislation made that change impossible at the time.

..... 

The free trade deal with America was not nothing - it was exactly what most conservatives and many others consider an intrinsically good thing. Indeed, the Americans had to be persuaded to take that plunge as well as the Canadian public. Although an unpopular policy at first that made Mulroney’s life considerably more difficult, he persisted and risked his job over it.

....

Well said.

1. The US is the only civilised society without a federal value-added tax. Mulroney reformed ours. I suspect that some American politician will be forced to have the courage to impose a US federal consumption tax.

2. I remember when Mulroney ran on free-trade in 1988. Everyone remembers his debates with Turner.

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2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Sure i made that claim but i realize it's wrong now.

It's great you realize you were wrong but next time don't make claims that aren't true to begin with. It was silly to claim that mulroney went out with a landslide when it was kim campbell who actually ran in that election

If you do some research before hand you won't have to apologize like that after the fact.

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Just now, August1991 said:

Well said.

1. The US is the only civilised society without a federal value-added tax. Mulroney reformed ours. I suspect that some American politician will be forced to have the courage to impose a US federal consumption tax.

2. I remember when Mulroney ran on free-trade in 1988. Everyone remembers his debates with Turner.

"You had a choice, sir!"

It's a shame - the free trade deal with the states literally saved canada.  It radically increased our trade with them and we made a buttload of money and created new industry at a time when we really needed to, but the liberal media of the day and the libs themselves scared people into thinking it was going to be the worst thing ever and everyone was going to be out of a job.

Chretien ran on scrapping the gst and the free trade agreement - and kept both.  That is the liberal mind at work - lie, achieve power, break your word and then steal as much as you can for yourself.

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U

1 hour ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Politics is the art of the possible. Any leader who moves too far from the mainstream will fail. Canada’s centre is considerably to the left of America’s and that’s how it is. 

The mainstream moves too and often faster than the leader can keep up with. Mulroney left the country so divided half the west was poised to leave or reform everything in sight and Quebec was primed to leave as well.

Politics is like a river that snakes back and forth over a floodplain. Sometimes following old channels sometimes carving out new ones and sometimes jumping the banks altogether until the mainstream gets kinda lost in the resulting flood.

And sometimes it all goes dry. The water holes get smaller and the animals get meaner.

 

Edited by eyeball
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39 minutes ago, August1991 said:

1. The US is the only civilised society without a federal value-added tax. Mulroney reformed ours. I suspect that some American politician will be forced to have the courage to impose a US federal consumption tax.

I bet it would be a lot easier if they eliminated income taxes at the same time...how hard can it really be?

You'd think the bottom line on taxpayer's paychecks would stand out a lot more than the GST on their receipts.

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6 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I bet it would be a lot easier if they eliminated income taxes at the same time...how hard can it really be?

You'd think the bottom line on taxpayer's paychecks would stand out a lot more than the GST on their receipts.

In a thread about Mulroney's death, I'll say this: the Japanese LDP lost power because it changed the VAT.

Ordinary people hate consumption taxes.  Why? They can't avoid them. Thatcher tried a poll tax.

Mulroney's original GST was 5% - but applied to everything - everything 

He backed off - the tax would be 7%m but not on food or rent. 

Albertans hated him.  Whatta guy!

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1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Chretien ran on scrapping the gst and the free trade agreement - and kept both.  That is the liberal mind at work - lie, achieve power, break your word and then steal as much as you can for yourself.

Political campaigns inevitably focus on unpopular policies and inconsistency in these matters is not a prerogative of any political faction. Look at the shambles of our military procurement. I’m grateful that both Mulroney initiatives have survived to this day. 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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2 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Political campaigns inevitably focus on unpopular policies and inconsistency in these matters is not a prerogative of any political faction. I’m grateful that both Mulroney initiatives have survived to this day. 

Sorry but it is a fair bit.

Sometimes you make promises  and circumstances change and you can't live up to them.'  That happens.  Sometimes there's information you don't know, and you get surprised. That happens. Nobody can keep all their commitments over the long haul.  I get that

But the liberals have a very long track record of more deliberately lying.  Chretien had no intention of even trying to scrap the gst or the free trade deal when he made those statements.  The first trudeau ran hard against supply management as a horrible idea - 6 months after he got elected, we got supply management.

Putting  a bit of spin on a promise is politics.  Out and out lying is not politics, it's just snake oil peddling. The ndp doesnt' tend to do it.  The conservatives don't tend to do it. Liberals do.

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3 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Sorry but it is a fair bit.

.....

But the liberals have a very long track record of more deliberately lying.  Chretien had no intention of even trying to scrap the gst or the free trade deal when he made those statements.  The first trudeau ran hard against supply management as a horrible idea - 6 months after he got elected, we got supply management.

...

Define fair bit.

And why did you use liberal in lower form.

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5 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Define fair bit.

In that context - 'substantially'.  The term comes from an expression that means " a generous helping" or 'a portion so large none could complain that it's at all small or less than deserved".

In short - moreso substantially than other parties

Quote

And why did you use liberal in lower form.

No particularly reason. I do use voice dication a fair bit (see? its a handy term :) )   and sometimes it'll capitalize the word and sometimes not.

Tho i suppose you could make the argument that they ARE a lower form :)   Snicker :)    (hey - you said it first)

Edited by CdnFox
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14 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

In that context - 'substantially'.  The term comes from an expression that means " a generous helping" or 'a portion so large none could complain that it's at all small or less than deserved".

-----

Are you autistic? A real person would ignore/laugh at my question "fair bit".

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3 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Are you autistic? A real person would ignore/laugh at my question "fair bit".

No i just think you're stupid enough for that to have been a real question.  It seemed entirely plausible. It's not my fault you have a reputation for being a slow thinker, don't hate me just because i'm considerate of your disabilities for heaven's sake.

Edited by CdnFox
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Here is Brian Mulroney,

The Parable of the Shrewd Manager

16 Jesus told his disciples: “There was a rich man whose manager was accused of wasting his possessions. 2 So he called him in and asked him, ‘What is this I hear about you? Give an account of your management, because you cannot be manager any longer.’

3 “The manager said to himself, ‘What shall I do now? My master is taking away my job. I’m not strong enough to dig, and I’m ashamed to beg— 4 I know what I’ll do so that, when I lose my job here, people will welcome me into their houses.’

5 “So he called in each one of his master’s debtors. He asked the first, ‘How much do you owe my master?’

6 “‘Nine hundred gallons[a] of olive oil,’ he replied.

“The manager told him, ‘Take your bill, sit down quickly, and make it four hundred and fifty.’

7 “Then he asked the second, ‘And how much do you owe?’

“‘A thousand bushels[b] of wheat,’ he replied.

“He told him, ‘Take your bill and make it eight hundred.’

8 “The master commended the dishonest manager because he had acted shrewdly. For the people of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own kind than are the people of the light. 9 I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings.

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6 hours ago, August1991 said:

In a thread about Mulroney's death, I'll say this: the Japanese LDP lost power because it changed the VAT.

Ordinary people hate consumption taxes.  Why? They can't avoid them. Thatcher tried a poll tax.

Mulroney's original GST was 5% - but applied to everything - everything 

He backed off - the tax would be 7%m but not on food or rent. 

Albertans hated him.  Whatta guy!

I don't have a quarrel with a Value Added Tax per se

the problem is that a VAT is supposed to allow the lowering of other more regressive taxes

but that is not what happened in Canada

where the government leviathan has an insatiable thirst for ever more revenue to feed the beast

further more, the inherently inept & corrupt GoC wastes the revenues promisculously

as instead of all the core functions of government being well funded, you get the opposite

the core functions of government are all chronically underfunded

while the revenue is spent on vote buying boondoggles and ideological lunacy

so you get the GST plus all the regressive taxes on top

and all of the revenue ends up disappearing into an accountability free black hole

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Here is a typical Mulroney quip:

Quote

When Mulroney’s Progressive Conservative government swept to power in 1984 following 15 years of reckless Liberal rule, Ontario Liberal leader and eventual premier David Peterson opined: “Brian Mulroney inherited one hell of a mess.”

Even Jean Chretien, who was one of Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau’s finance ministers, admitted: “We left the cupboard bare.”

As Mulroney said to much laughter during a speech in Calgary back in 2007 when he was on his Memoirs book tour, “That was (Chretien’s) only understatement.”

 

Of the criticisms that could be leveled against him, not being conservative (as in pro-free market) enough would be a rare one:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/commentary/article-brian-mulroney-canadas-unabashed-champion-of-free-enterprise/?utm_source=infobox&utm_medium=inarticle&utm_campaign=mulroneyinfobox

 

 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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12 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Putting  a bit of spin on a promise is politics.  Out and out lying is not politics, it's just snake oil peddling. The ndp doesnt' tend to do it.  The conservatives don't tend to do it. Liberals do.

Tories break key election promise on income trusts

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/tories-break-key-election-promise-on-income-trusts/article1108637/

They broke a promise against a trust. The irony is spectacular.

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