Ukraine Can't Win the War

[DUI_Offender]

9 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

I think that this poster is sadly a little bit of both.

When forum members who lack the intelligence to debate, they resort to projecting their faults onto others...

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

When forum members who lack

You literally have brought no value to this forum. Look at my threads. Where are yours?

Where are your contributions? Insults? People who hate me still post on my threads. 

I can still have rational debates with people I don't like. You're strictly here to insult others.

You bring nothing to the table. You insulting me, is a compliment.

I pity your child.

[DUI_Offender]

13 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

You literally have brought no value to this forum. Look at my threads. Where are yours?

Where are your contributions? Insults? People who hate me still post on my threads. 

I can still have rational debates with people I don't like. You're strictly here to insult others.

You bring nothing to the table. You insulting me, is a compliment.

I pity your child.

What an ironic post. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, DUI_Offender said:

What an

Its called return fire.

You start the battle, but can't handle the heat.

Likely an old poster that was sh***ed on, and came back with a "vengeance".

Can't even win an argument, boasts about how he would "school" people, never does, so turns to personal insults which he also sucks at.

At least post a decent thread. The irony is you trying to take a moral high road when you're a piece of s*** alcoholic who can't even raise their kids right. No wonder she left you o_O.

[DUI_Offender]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

Its called return fire.

You start the battle, but can't handle the heat.

Likely an old poster that was sh***ed on, and came back with a "vengeance".

Can't even win an argument, boasts about how he would "school" people, never does, so turns to personal insults which he also sucks at.

At least post a decent thread. The irony is you trying to take a moral high road when you're a piece of s*** alcoholic who can't even raise their kids right. No wonder she left you o_O.

lol...this post says way more about you than it does me. For starters, you have no idea about my personal life, and just like your political opinions,  resort to making things up.

 

Secondly,  why can't you quote me properly? You use 3 or 4 words in my post, and base your rebuttal on that.

 

At any rate, you are in a bad mood  and I hope your day gets better from here. Go out and enjoy the weather or take a bike ride. You will feel better 😀

[Guest]

1 hour ago, DUI_Offender said:

lol

My exact opinion about you. 

You literally have no debate skills and can't even hold an opinion or intelligently present it, without devolving into flailing and insults.

You're like a toddler being presented facts, going into histrionics trying to cling to their beliefs, and impose them. 

Nobody in this board gives a s*** about you. You literally have contributed nothing to it. 

You're a joke. Fitting, considering your love for irony.

Enjoy talking yourself into circles about how you "schooled me", or mocking how I get laid way more than you as an asexual.

[DUI_Offender]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

My exact opinion about you. 

You literally have no debate skills and can't even hold an opinion or intelligently present it, without devolving into flailing and insults.

You're like a toddler being presented facts, going into histrionics trying to cling to their beliefs, and impose them. 

Nobody in this board gives a s*** about you. You literally have contributed nothing to it. 

You're a joke. Fitting, considering your love for irony.

Enjoy talking yourself into circles about how you "schooled me", or mocking how I get laid way more than you as an asexual.

Rent. Free.

[Guest]

Zelensky seems to be wanting to or rather, be open to talk to Putin.

This going on for more than a couple more years would be disastrous to Ukraine. Even some if his closest aides seem to think as such, some even openly.

[Moonbox]

23 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Zelensky seems to be wanting to or rather, be open to talk to Putin.

They both keep saying they're open to talks.  The conditions they place on those talks (particularly Putin) make that a laugh.  

23 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

This going on for more than a couple more years would be disastrous to Ukraine. Even some if his closest aides seem to think as such, some even openly.

It's already disastrous for Russia.  Half a million more casualties and two more years of debt-financed military economy for a country that was already spiraling into demographic decline is going to be bad bad bad.  

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

They both keep saying they're open to talks. 

He (Zelensky) seems a bit more serious this time around.

I.E Accepting that ceasefire talks may have to occur while Ukraine is still occupied. Floating the idea of talks should include Russia. Without this, you can't possibly be serious at wanting to negotiate peace.

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

It's already disastrous for Russia.

Its disastrous for both. With Russia however, there isn't any doubt who will be fully supporting them. Ukraine, may have this come into question, soon, in that there may be withering pressure for a consensus to be found, soon.

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Half a million more casualties

Many in Russia loathe the war. There is no doubt about it. I just don't think there will be any form of rebellion to stop it, other than the one we recently witnessed with what seemed to be a near invasion of Moscow.

[Guest]

On 7/10/2024 at 10:45 AM, Moonbox said:

These soldiers are so motivated that Russian commanders employ blocking units behind their assaults that shoot their own retreating soldiers.  

If you prefer, they are far more incentivized to fight, and fight hard. Russia will employ draconian tactics to punish cowardice in a way that you'd be best to get injured seriously, than to bail out. Many soldiers have even openly leaked such thoughts which to me, is rather obvious.

Russian soldiers are gutted, knowing for many, that this is a meat grinder they likely will die in. There is no getting up happy, knowing that your ultimate end could be today.

However, between this, and erratic weapon shipments from western allies, one creates more motivation than the other. I guarantee you, some of the land Russia grabbed, was from fully dejected Ukrainian troops not having the will to fight.

[DUI_Offender]

5 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

 

However, between this, and erratic weapon shipments from western allies, one creates more motivation than the other. I guarantee you, some of the land Russia grabbed, was from fully dejected Ukrainian troops not having the will to fight.

This is one of the most ridiculous things I have heard. First off, Russia has gained hardly any land in the past year....maybe 0.1% of Ukraine. Ukrainians have far more incentive to fight than the Russians. This would explain the casualty rate being 2:1 in favour of Ukraine.

This whole "special operation" has been an unmitigated disaster for Russia.  Morale is not high on either side, but the Ukrainians have far more will to carry on, since they are actually fighting to defend their territory. 

Edited July 25 by DUI_Offender

[Moonbox]

6 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

I.E Accepting that ceasefire talks may have to occur while Ukraine is still occupied. Floating the idea of talks should include Russia. Without this, you can't possibly be serious at wanting to negotiate peace.

Neither can Putin, insisting on Ukraine capitulating territory that Russia doesn't even control (fully or otherwise).  

6 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Its disastrous for both. With Russia however, there isn't any doubt who will be fully supporting them. Ukraine, may have this come into question, soon, in that there may be withering pressure for a consensus to be found, soon.

Europe will support them, even if Trump does not.  I have my doubts about how willing/able Trump would be to cut and run as well, given how most of the Republican Party is firmly on board with aid to Ukraine. 

6 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Many in Russia loathe the war. There is no doubt about it. I just don't think there will be any form of rebellion to stop it, other than the one we recently witnessed with what seemed to be a near invasion of Moscow.

It's not a war.  It's a special military operation.  😐

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Neither can Putin, insisting on Ukraine capitulating territory that Russia doesn't even control (fully or otherwise).  

This to me is simply bluster. You negotiate high, and during talks find middle ground. You show your cards, and likely come out with nothing.

But without those conversations, you will never be able to find out what is the "acceptable" red line neither will want to cross, as I am quite certain it will be significantly than the pointed ones revealed before cameras.

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Europe will support them, even if Trump does not.

I don't doubt they will, but they will need consistent and rapid backing, if they are to hold off Russia for a year or longer. Lulls in funding and weapons, has had devastating effects on morale.

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I have my doubts about how willing/able Trump would be to cut and run as well, given how most of the Republican Party is firmly on board with aid to Ukraine. 

He could humiliate an ally the same way Biden humiliated his military in Afghanistan. I don't think his generals would allow for it.

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

It's a special military operation.

No matter the propaganda, I don't think there are many Russians still buying this. I mean, you have hundreds of thousands of people missing, and returning body bags.

[Guest]

Also, ceding territory is something many are accepting of.

Soon enough, after the suffering, will be pressuring for.

Its unthinkable on paper, considering what was lost, but this war is no longer about survival, but rather holding appearances. 

Ukraine has proven they are more than capable to withstand everything thrown at them. From a superior army, no less. Nothing to be ashamed of.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

First off, Russia has gained hardly any land

This isn't a victory. Russia still remains in possession of significant land.

A victory is the Ukraine resistance.

However, this victory has made way for the reality. One they will need to accept (they will negotiate eventually, and part of this will involve losing some land).

7 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

Ukrainians have far more incentive to fight than the Russians.

At this point, reports is of many being cynical of receiving weapons on time, which has made them highly hesitant to make major gains which would require immense amounts of ammunition, fuel and weapons.

They have all the will in the world to hold their positions, however. But that is survival. Surrendering front lines to Russia, is suicide

That drive to regain what was theirs has all but evaporated, based on the reality.

I would go further, in stating there aren't many soldiers on either side that isn't dejected, hoping to be removed from the hell they find themselves in.

However, a Russian defector likely would be tortured and killed. You would be best to serve and get injured.

Russian soldiers may have less incentive to choose to do this, but have a level of fear in them that let's them know they have to do this.

I see it like a drug pusher that owes money. The motivation to find that money, when you know what will happen to you, will have such a person move mountains.

[DUI_Offender]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

This isn't a victory. Russia still remains in possession of significant land.

A victory is the Ukraine resistance.

However, this victory has made way for the reality. One they will need to accept (they will negotiate eventually, and part of this will involve losing some land).

At this point, reports is of many being cynical of receiving weapons on time, which has made them highly hesitant to make major gains which would require immense amounts of ammunition, fuel and weapons.

They have all the will in the world to hold their positions, however. But that is survival. Surrendering front lines to Russia, is suicide

That drive to regain what was theirs has all but evaporated, based on the reality.

I would go further, in stating there aren't many soldiers on either side that isn't dejected, hoping to be removed from the hell they find themselves in.

However, a Russian defector likely would be tortured and killed. You would be best to serve and get injured.

Russian soldiers may have less incentive to choose to do this, but have a level of fear in them that let's them know they have to do this.

I see it like a drug pusher that owes money. The motivation to find that money, when you know what will happen to you, will have such a person move mountains.

Yes, of course Russians are different,  when it comes to every single ethnic group in human history. 

*rolls eyes*

I've grown tired of debating with people,  who  just parrot Russian propaganda. 

[Guest]

55 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

propaganda

Disagreement with your opinion is now propaganda. No better argument provided.

Deflecting because you don't have a valid argument.

[Moonbox]

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

This to me is simply bluster. You negotiate high, and during talks find middle ground. You show your cards, and likely come out with nothing.

Most of what Putin says publicly is bluster and balogna.  The problem is that he's been so public and adamant on his demands and his ability to achieve them, that falling short will be a humiliation. 

4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

But without those conversations, you will never be able to find out what is the "acceptable" red line neither will want to cross, as I am quite certain it will be significantly than the pointed ones revealed before cameras.

The problem for Russia is that the war was a disaster to start.  Short of a quick, clean victory, there's no scenario where Russia is better off than before Feb 2022.  Their consumer economy is devastated, and their "growth" is entirely based on unsustainable, deficit-financed military spending that adds no value.  

The worst part about all of this is that whatever territory they do take, they've devastated and can't afford to rebuild.  The whole thing has been a fiasco for them.  

At this point I start to wonder if a stalemate is the goal.  Putin can't afford to lose the war, but I'm not sure he can afford to win it either.  

5 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

No matter the propaganda, I don't think there are many Russians still buying this. I mean, you have hundreds of thousands of people missing, and returning body bags.

It was a joke.  Even the Kremlin is calling it a war now.  The one thing I definitely underestimated when the Russian army faceplanted was the cowed servility of the average Russian peasant.  To go two years insisting that this was just "a special military operation" when everyone knew better was a joke in and of itself, but the Russians just sort of went along with it anyway.  

[DUI_Offender]

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Disagreement with your opinion is now propaganda. No better argument provided.

Deflecting because you don't have a valid argument.

I am going to go to Amazon.com, and see if they have any books or tutorials about using the "quote function properly. 

We have been debating for so long, I feel it is the least I can do for you.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, DUI_Offender said:

Amazon.com

Posting for Dummies?

While there, check chapter 5 on getting  back what you put into your debates.

I believe its after trolling and getting butt hurt at the return fire.

Page 56. You get discounts if you buy two.

[DUI_Offender]

5 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Its unthinkable on paper, considering what was lost, but this war is no longer about survival, but rather holding appearances. 

This is the whole problem with ypur argument.  You cannot even comprehend the Ukrainian perspective. This is only about "holding appearances" for the Russian side. It's survival for the Ukrainians. 

Edited July 25 by DUI_Offender

[Guest]

2 hours ago, DUI_Offender said:

This is the whole

I think the important thing to note, is the fact that Ukraine is strong with full western backing.

They start to see fraying, and while they still have European support, they then have amplified pressure to come to a quick resolution, which would then favor Russia.

War is chess. The long game doesn't look good for Ukraine which is why they would rather find a resolution while their negotiating hand is good.

[DUI_Offender]

3 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Ukraine better surrender now, before Russia commits more atrocities.

I  think they should keep on fighting. 

Edited July 25 by DUI_Offender

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Most of what Putin says publicly is bluster and balogna. 

Basically. 

But if you actually think Ukraine can take back all of its land, that also happens to be pride and bluster. No harm in it, on Ukraines side.

But that dark reality is starting to hit, in that there is no plan for Russia to stop this anytime soon.

We all know Russia is desperate, when they bomb and target civilians, deliberately.

Sooner or later, this will work, in seeing the growing percentage of people voting for ceding land to Russia as a means of ending this.

Zelensky will have to be cautious. Too much land, would be political suicide. 

Not enough, and this may need to get to the point that Russia is fully depleted financially, before finally accepting to make larger concessions of their own.

7 hours ago, Moonbox said:

that falling short will be a humiliation. 

This is what makes him dangerous in my opinion.

He is desperate. The more that noose tightens around his neck, the more indiscriminately and profusely he will bomb civilians, as a means to bring Ukraine to its knees.

Ukraine is stuck. They can't fight the same way, if they intend on joining NATO.

7 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The problem for Russia is that the war was a disaster to start. 

Right now, Putin is grasping at straws to save face.

He is flailing. His tantrums telegraph this.

7 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The worst part about all of this is that whatever territory they do take, they've devastated and can't afford to rebuild.  The whole thing has been a fiasco for them.  

All of this over his ego, and likely s****y intel that this would be a cake walk and Ukraine would fold.

I went to college with a Ukrainian woman, and knew a few others. He should have known better. These people are built different.

Feisty is an understatement.

7 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Putin can't afford to lose the war, but I'm not sure he can afford to win it either.  

I don't think he knows what he wants, but knows he can't lose face, internationally. 

That's the red line that would warrant him using far more severe weapons. IE them being pushed out of a territory in its entirety, and Putin seeing his grip on power evaporating before his eyes.

7 hours ago, Moonbox said:

  Even the Kremlin is calling it a war now.  The one

Kind of hard to bulls**t at this point.

Like pointing to your front of your car entirely being crumpled, telling you it will buff out.

Anyone buying that still, shouldn't breed, let alone buy a car.