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Something rotten in today's Conservatism


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1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

most people support current Canadian unlimited abortion rights that allow abortion up to 9 months

This is an outright lie.

45 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’re missing a major distinction.  Yes all are created in the image of God, but no, we are not perfect and not all choices are good or of equal value.  

You think someone would choose to be in an oppressed minority. Wow.

You are throwing out all kinds of unqualified statements like the one quoted that I would have to waste too much time correcting you every time you do such.

Tell us though, if sexual preference is a choice, when did you choose whatever you are?

How strong was your impulse to choose to go gay?

 

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3 hours ago, French Patriot said:

Your understanding is not on point.

I do not like to see any potential human aborted, but that does not give me the right to impose my desire to save it onto another.

Mine is a complicated view sometimes but I always take the moral position which is usually not where the religious are.

You havent shown how its not on point 

I f it were true that you do not like to see any potential human aborted then you wouldnt support abortion. You are lying to yourself which is a much larger problem than lying to others. 

Yours is decidedly not a complicated view. Yours is a position of lying to yourself. Its never moral to lie even to yourself. The world of "twisted" morals 

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6 hours ago, French Patriot said:

This is an outright lie.

You think someone would choose to be in an oppressed minority. Wow.

You are throwing out all kinds of unqualified statements like the one quoted that I would have to waste too much time correcting you every time you do such.

Tell us though, if sexual preference is a choice, when did you choose whatever you are?

How strong was your impulse to choose to go gay?

 

You don’t know the law of the land on abortion.  

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15 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Generally I support anyone who is against big controlling government and who is against destabilizing family through identity politics, EDI, gender ideology, Marxism, and nihilism.

I could agree with some of that, are you making the old mistake though, turning all attention inward like the environment is guaranteed forever? The world is changing. The dictators learned to talk and join their forces. They want nothing less that diminish and destroy you.

Who's going to stand up to them, now? Is talking about family values going to stop them? Isn't this a question of survival and possibly more immediate, before all else? Do you think not noticing it, pretending it out of reality, would do much good?

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7 hours ago, myata said:

I could agree with some of that, are you making the old mistake though, turning all attention inward like the environment is guaranteed forever? The world is changing. The dictators learned to talk and join their forces. They want nothing less that diminish and destroy you.

Who's going to stand up to them, now? Is talking about family values going to stop them? Isn't this a question of survival and possibly more immediate, before all else? Do you think not noticing it, pretending it out of reality, would do much good?

The threat of foreign dictators is more a result of our own failure in the West to value and defend our Constitutional rights and way of life.  The pandemic should’ve been a wake up call to remind people how fast their freedoms can be removed if the people don’t push back and question.  That’s why I think we have to be careful not to let the alternative lifestyle lobby, the climate ideologues, and the new racists (EDI crowd) take away all our attention from the erosion of our way of life.  I can promise you that Russia and China don’t have time for any of that.  While we are sleeping and arguing over pronouns they are militarizing, making infrastructure deals in Africa, implementing the Belt and Road Initiative, etc.

Our society has become unmoored because we no longer have or assert admirable core principles for ourselves and the rest of the world.  I don’t want to see Canada learn the hard way through unnecessary war, but we may be forced into it.  Instead of equipping and strengthening our military, we shame and soften them.

I can see new crises being used as excuses for Canadians to hand more control to a government that is very much under the influence of unaccountable international bodies and foreign governments like China.  If you add surveillance, A.I. algorithms, and all sorts of crises, real or fake (health, EMT, aliens, climate change, psy-ops and deep fake misinformation), you have many ingredients for totalitarianism.

That’s why for me it’s all about protecting local decision-making and the most basic social unit, the family. Communities must keep their rights and culture and not allow big government to interfere.  Sure, protecting the environment is part of that, but be wary of attempts to remove rights in the name of saving the planet or keeping you safe.  The same goes for attempts to pressure people economically through taxation or over-dependence on the state. Also, beware of attempts to strip away people’s beliefs in any higher authority than the state.  I believe that the most important battles are spiritual. Once you believe that life isn’t sacred and there’s no greater authority than the state, much dehumanization and oppression becomes possible.

Edited by Zeitgeist
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24 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The threat of foreign dictators is more a result of our own failure in the West to value and defend our Constitutional rights and way of life.  The pandemic should’ve been a wake up call to remind people how fast their freedoms can be removed if the people don’t push back and question.  That’s why I think we have to be careful not to let the alternative lifestyle lobby, the climate ideologues, and the new racists (EDI crowd) take away all our attention from the erosion of our way of life.  I can promise you that Russia and China don’t have time for any of that.  While we are sleeping and arguing over pronouns they are militarizing, making infrastructure deals in Africa, implementing the Belt and Road Initiative, etc.

Our society has become unmoored because we no longer have or assert admirable core principles for ourselves and the rest of the world.  I don’t want to see Canada learn the hard way through unnecessary war, but we may be forced into it.  Instead of equipping and strengthening our military, we shame and soften them.

I can see new crises being used as excuses for Canadians to hand more control to a government that is very much under the influence of unaccountable international bodies and foreign governments like China.  If you add surveillance, A.I. algorithms, and all sorts of crises, real or fake (health, EMT, aliens, climate change, psy-ops and deep fake misinformation), you have many ingredients for totalitarianism.

That’s why for me it’s all about protecting local decision-making and the most basic social unit, the family. Communities must keep their rights and culture and not allow big government to interfere.  Sure, protecting the environment is part of that, but be wary of attempts to remove rights in the name of saving the planet or keeping you safe.  The same goes for attempts to pressure people economically through taxation or over-dependence on the state. Also, beware of attempts to strip away people’s beliefs in any higher authority than the state.  I believe that the most important battles are spiritual. Once you believe that life isn’t sacred and there’s no greater authority than the state, much dehumanization and oppression becomes possible.

Exactly. The situation is complex and also has a history. Is not just black and white here, as simple-minded folk may think.

The most obvious knee-jerkers react to what's in front of them. They don't know what is esoteric. Just string on a carrot, pull them along to any corner of the states desire for them to believe.

In other words, this is chess, not checkers.

We can rant all day about bad ole people in the world who don't love us. We can even start wars. Endless wars. Really, the war never ended, just we live in a secure bubble. We barely get to hear about our own country's military endeavours out in the world. The news about Yemen is way down at the bottom of the scroll, far below news about how bad the weather is in Canada.

Sure sounds like George Orwell to me. That guy had the future pegged, to a "T".

Which should be obvious, but for the fact some of these people do not even READ BOOKS. Hence, they can only follow the carrot.

And once you take that carrot away, they get scared. They see the world-view they believed in has suddenly vanished. Like someone pulling the rug out.

Shhh... do not awaken the blissful, sleeping babes...

;)

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1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Exactly. The situation is complex and also has a history. Is not just black and white here, as simple-minded folk may think.

The most obvious knee-jerkers react to what's in front of them. They don't know what is esoteric. Just string on a carrot, pull them along to any corner of the states desire for them to believe.

In other words, this is chess, not checkers.

We can rant all day about bad ole people in the world who don't love us. We can even start wars. Endless wars. Really, the war never ended, just we live in a secure bubble. We barely get to hear about our own country's military endeavours out in the world. The news about Yemen is way down at the bottom of the scroll, far below news about how bad the weather is in Canada.

Sure sounds like George Orwell to me. That guy had the future pegged, to a "T".

Which should be obvious, but for the fact some of these people do not even READ BOOKS. Hence, they can only follow the carrot.

And once you take that carrot away, they get scared. They see the world-view they believed in has suddenly vanished. Like someone pulling the rug out.

Shhh... do not awaken the blissful, sleeping babes...

;)

Yup.  The ultra-short news cycle aligns with the recharge of Tic Toc-timed click bait.  Basically the populous is on a steady drip of serotonin, the upper, combined with outrage porn, the downer.  It’s very easy now to pull the strings of the puppet masses, but more than anything else, the result seems to be a completely out to lunch mainstream society that doesn’t know its history and doesn’t know the value of the inherence.

It’s the slow-boiling frog phenomenon for the West and particularly for naive smaller powers like Canada.  Most Canadians don’t know what they’ve lost already and what more they could lose.  If you see other countries and know history, it becomes clear pretty quickly.

In broad strokes I’d say we need to stop calling strength weakness and stop weakening ourselves.

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10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yup.  The ultra-short news cycle aligns with the recharge of Tic Toc-timed click bait.  Basically the populous is on a steady drip of serotonin, the upper, combined with outrage porn, the downer.  It’s very easy now to pull the strings of the puppet masses, but more than anything else, the result seems to be a completely out to lunch mainstream society that doesn’t know its history and doesn’t know the value of the inherence.

It’s the slow-boiling frog phenomenon for the West and particularly for naive smaller powers like Canada.  Most Canadians don’t know what they’ve lost already and what more they could lose.  If you see other countries and know history, it becomes clear pretty quickly.

In broad strokes I’d say we need to stop calling strength weakness and stop weakening ourselves.

I see it as a psychological war upon us from China. I cannot prove that, but it makes the most sense based on my assessment of history of the superpowers. We are under attack, and the internet is the weapon or medium being used.

And now with the advent of AI, they can come up with all sorts of psychological goodies, to keep you people's heads spinning totally round-and-round.

 

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8 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I see it as a psychological war upon us from China. I cannot prove that, but it makes the most sense based on my assessment of history of the superpowers. We are under attack, and the internet is the weapon or medium being used.

And now with the advent of AI, they can come up with all sorts of psychological goodies, to keep you people's heads spinning totally round-and-round.

 

Well whether it’s China or an international cabal or just a bunch of somewhat affiliated and non-affiliated interests, the only bulwark is a strong, inquisitive, knowledgeable and free citizenry that refuses to be a blind tool of any organization, group, or government.  The individual must be sacrosanct, free to associate, question, protest, run for office, and assert Constitutional rights.

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20 hours ago, French Patriot said:

Those who need inquisitions and jihads to grow because of their inability to do apologetics that make moral sense.

Yahweh, Hitler; what's the difference?

I don’t have time to explain world history, though you can look at my comments on communist regimes that remove God and make the state the arbiter of what is right and just.  Once you make the state leader your highest authority, you have no recourse to conscience or a higher authority to your individual rights as a being imbued with natural rights and the sanctity of a soul that warrants respect.  The American founders and the founders of our constitutional monarchy understood this.  Otherwise there’s nothing to prevent us from becoming another China.

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1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

make the state the arbiter of what is right and just.

All Western democracies do this.  Other than murder, what Commandments are contained within our legal system?

Even with murder, our system of law doesn’t take the definition of it from the bible.  
 

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

The American founders and the founders of our constitutional monarchy understood this.

The founders of both countries realized freedom of religion, something completely antithetical to religion should be the basis of our individual freedoms.  So, no….  You’re simply wrong about that.  
 

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Otherwise there’s nothing to prevent us from becoming another China.

Other than our laws based on the Charter.   That secular document prevents Canada from becoming China, or any other country that doesn’t respect those individual rights/freedoms.

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2 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

All Western democracies do this.  Other than murder, what Commandments are contained within our legal system?

Even with murder, our system of law doesn’t take the definition of it from the bible.  
 

The founders of both countries realized freedom of religion, something completely antithetical to religion should be the basis of our individual freedoms.  So, no….  You’re simply wrong about that.  
 

Other than our laws based on the Charter.   That secular document prevents Canada from becoming China, or any other country that doesn’t respect those individual rights/freedoms.

No you don’t know the origins of much of this, which is a combination of the Germanic assembly, Roman administration, and most importantly, Christendom.   The excesses of pagan Rome, including the Roman circus and women and slaves as mere chattels whose lives were entirely dispensable by their owners, was finally subjected to a very powerful message of love and service.

The appeal to this idea of love is rooted in the idea of a God who washes the feet of regular people and sacrifices himself for others.  It’s the most influential story in Western culture. The influence of the Bible on our laws and institutions is fundamental to our country’s founding. What’s more, the Christians and the Jews before them held onto their faith through periods of political oppression and subjugation.  Without the ability to appeal to conscience and a higher authority than the state, and without enshrining that right of belief constitutionally, you have no guarantee of freedom.

Where do you think the values in the Charter came from, Marxists and nihilists like you?

Oh and Hardner, you’ve become quite the Philistine in your comments and likes.  I thought maybe you were the Christian centrist you claim to be, but I no longer think that or value you as a moderator.

Edited by Zeitgeist
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On 1/14/2024 at 11:04 AM, OftenWrong said:

I see it as a psychological war upon us from China. I cannot prove that, but it makes the most sense based on my assessment of history of the superpowers. We are under attack, and the internet is the weapon or medium being used.

Canada overthrew itself long time ago, when I was just a boy

the Patriation of the Constitution in 1982 was a poison pill

enacted by Royal Assent on 28 March 1982

thus the Chinese are simply kicking in a rotted out door with ease

 

 

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1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

women and slaves as mere chattels whose lives were entirely dispensable by their owners

You just described the bible.  The Middle East during the advent of Christianity was no less advanced about slavery and women as property than Rome was.  And they certainly didn’t do away with slavery or treating women as chattel.
 

You’ll deny that because you need it to fit your narrative about biblical morality saving the west, but it’s simply not true.  Slavery was practiced up to the 1800s justified by the writings of the bible.  
 

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s the most influential story in Western culture. The influence of the Bible on our laws and institutions is fundamental to our country’s founding.

I’ve never denied that they were important to the founding of wester; culture and laws.   But it’s also true that we have gone way beyond what is biblical teaching in terms of rights of the individual.  
 

One instance is freedom of thought/religion.  It was never a tenet of Christianity that people should have this freedom.  In fact, the church killed blasphemers, Canada had blasphemy laws on the books until recently and the commandments even impose punishment for thinking the wrong thing; coveting and whatnot.  
 

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2 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

You just described the bible.  Rome was no less advanced about slavery and women as property than Rome was.  You’ll deny that because you need it to fit your narrative about biblical morality saving the west, but it’s simply not true.  Slavery was practiced up to the 1800s justified by the writings of the bible.  
 

I’ve never denied that they were important to the founding of wester; culture and laws.   But it’s also true that we have gone way beyond what is biblical teaching in terms of rights of the individual.  
 

One instance is freedom of thought/religion.  It was never a tenet of Christianity that people should have this freedom.  In fact, the church killed blasphemers, Canada had blasphemy laws on the books until recently and the commandments even impose punishment for thinking the wrong thing; coveting and whatnot.  
 

Ha, you clearly don’t know these histories or the stories of liberation in the Bible, which are literally the central theme of the Bible.  You exemplify the empty commodified modern man, bereft of knowledge and wisdom.  The values of the marketplace, no purpose but to consume unquestioningly, whether it’s in the form of goods or information. No value system. Nihilism and compliance with state directives, no matter what they signify.   

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12 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Ha, you clearly don’t know these histories or the stories of liberation in the Bible, which are literally the central theme of the Bible.  You exemplify the empty commodified modern man, bereft of knowledge and wisdom.  The values of the marketplace, no purpose but to consume unquestioningly, whether it’s in the form of goods or information. No value system. Nihilism and compliance with state directives, no matter what they signify.   

That’s an assertion by you….  But looking at the Old Testament, clearly there is chattel slavery allowed and the New doesn’t directly refute slavery, unless it’s a trick of interpretation. 
 

Are you saying there was no slavery in Christendom?
 

What is being able to sell your daughter (not sons) other than treating women as property?

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37 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

But it’s also true that we have gone way beyond what is biblical teaching in terms of rights of the individual.  
 

One instance is freedom of thought/religion.  It was never a tenet of Christianity that people should have this freedom.  In fact, the church killed blasphemers, Canada had blasphemy laws on the books until recently and the commandments even impose punishment for thinking the wrong thing; coveting and whatnot.  

 

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Where do you think the values in the Charter came from, Marxists and nihilists like you?

Any thoughts on the secular moral value of freedom of conscience?   Can we agree that it is a tenet of our Charter?  Freedom of religion and conscience.  
 

Is this a biblical moral value?   I contend that it is not.   How could the bible hold freedom of thought as a moral tenet when it preaches things like coveting as a sin?  It’s a thought-crime. 
The bible obviously says that not believing in God is also a sin.  Another thought-crime. 
 

Can you show me that I’m wrong, instead of merely asserting it?

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1 hour ago, TreeBeard said:

That’s an assertion by you….  But looking at the Old Testament, clearly there is chattel slavery allowed and the New doesn’t directly refute slavery, unless it’s a trick of interpretation. 
 

Are you saying there was no slavery in Christendom?
 

What is being able to sell your daughter (not sons) other than treating women as property?

The notion of conscience is attached to the idea of the ancient Greek word psyche or soul (Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic were the main languages of the Bible). It’s based on the idea of consciousness, which requires thought, which is bound up with our very notion of a free thinking individual   Descartes later gave his proof for the existence of the individual, “I think therefore I am.” Without this notion of the soul/consciousness we don’t have modern psychology.  We also don’t have a firm basis for the individual   The most important first story of the Bible, Genesis, describes Adam and Eve having free will and freely choosing.  No free will means no individual. Freedom as we understand it is bound up with the Judaic idea of the fundamentally free individual in Western culture. This is why we can speak of people being naturally free and why this was codified constitutionally. Our Charter emulates the American Constitution, which certainly had these ideas in mind.

I’m curious as to what you think Exodus and almost every other Biblical story is communicating.  I’d also like to know what you think the notion of the importance of the human individual derives from.  There are arguments to be made that some of our notions of democratic freedom came from Indigenous figures like Huron-Wendat statesman Kandiaronk, and that there were relatively egalitarian examples of representative democracy in different parts of the world and certainly in the Greek city states among citizens.  We could talk about the first known laws like the Code of Hammurabi.

However, the most influential moral stories on Western cultures predating English Common Law (our law too) and informing all of the nation states which derived from the Holy Roman Empire (Europe) are Judeo-Christian.  This is indisputable.  Canada was founded in this context, by Britannia, which was a Roman construct that became Christian in its early history prior to the Assemblly at Bath under the first King of what we call Britain today, Alfred.

You have much to learn on these topics or you wouldn’t make such ignorant statements.  The first universities were ecclesiastical (run by clergy) and the language of learning was Latin.  The courts were tied to this structure, as was government and the notion of divine right monarchy under the authority of God, not Karl Marx or your DEI instructor or Trudeau.

Stop pretending that most of what has value in our society was created by some students reading Sartre and smoking Galoises in 1960’s Paris.

You need to understand the origins of the operative metaphors and words with power on which we all rely as given frames of reference in our discussions and narratives.

I’m actually pissed off that supposedly educated and moral moderators aren’t reeling in the charlatans on here, but I’m not surprised.  It helps explain the civilizational decline.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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11 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Are you going to address my question of freedom of conscience and thought and how that squares with the tenets of Christianity?  Let’s deal with that first before we talk Hammurabi.  

Jesus said if we just think about a sin, I don't know, screwing someone perhaps, it is a sin in and of itself. 

From that we can see that Jesus does not allow freedom of choice or conscience.  

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18 minutes ago, French Patriot said:

Jesus said if we just think about a sin, I don't know, screwing someone perhaps, it is a sin in and of itself. 

From that we can see that Jesus does not allow freedom of choice or conscience.  

You don’t seem to know the difference between venal and mortal sin, nor the difference between temptation and sin.  

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24 minutes ago, French Patriot said:

Have you seen American kids do their morning pledge?

It is to country and not to a God.

If the Chinese are at your door, all will pray and pledge to the state is what sustains you and not some God.

 

Only a complete fool would pray to a state.  Interesting though how confused some people are on these matters.

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