‘It’s just not translating’: New Democrats worry about party’s performance under Jagmeet Singh’s leadership

[CdnFox]

https://www.thestar.com/politics/federal/it-s-just-not-translating-new-democrats-worry-about-party-s-performance-under-jagmeet-singh/article_7a82cfb0-4e5a-5ac5-a005-48e064a51a95.html

 

HAMILTON—On the eve of NDP Leader Jagmeet Singh’s third leadership review, party members are delivering a mixed assessment of Singh’s tenure as leader — and the governing pact he inked with the Trudeau Liberals more than a year ago.

“I think politically, Jagmeet Singh has been better than I was expecting him to be in a lot of ways,” said Miles Krauter, an active member of the NDP for the past decade.

“But for whatever reason, it’s just not translating electorally for us … he might say a lot of good things, but it doesn’t always seem connected to a broader vision, a transformational vision for society.”

But the party’s grassroots had a more sobering view of the governing agreement, which party observers predict will be one of the legacies of Singh’s time as leader.

For Krauter, the deal initially represented nothing more than the NDP propping up progressive policies the Liberals were already open to implementing.

The NDP “has been trumpeting (dental care) as universal dental care, but it doesn’t even really feel like an adequate means-tested program,” he said.

“But in fact, it’s a rebate program, which is classic Liberal policy.”

Krauter, who lives in Ontario, also said the party’s message that it is solely the New Democrats who have secured affordability victories for Canadians isn’t resonating on the ground.

[CdnFox]

As predicted.

Jagmeet lost a stunning number of seats in his first election, going from 39 to 24 seats.  Then he barely held the line there in the next election, and if the current polling is accurate by the time the next election rolls around he stands to lose another 6 or 7 seats.

and the junior partner in a coalition ALWAYS does badly next election. People associate them with the larger partner and either vote for the larger partner directly or if they don't like the larger partner avoid both.

It'll be interesting to see what comes out of this, but i suspect jaggers is going to do poorly next election and the ndp will loose even more seats.

Bloc for official opposition again?  

[ExFlyer]

Personally, I see no "leadership" qualities in Jagmeet at all.

 I do see (or hear) him every once in a while, mostly to demand something from Trudeau and that normally does not happen.

He has a huge hammer and has not even threatened to use it. We are where we are in this country because Jagmeet is as much Trudeau's puppet as Trudeaus members of cabinet.

In effect, he is a member of Trudeau's regime.

[Moonbox]

Jagmeet was always unelectable.  He has a huge hammer, but he knows he is just going to break things if he uses it.  When Trudeau goes down, the centrist voters will either not vote, or they'll go to PP and his slick updated image.  They're not going to go to the guy every bit as airheaded, out-of-touch and clueless as the outgoing PM, especially when he wears a turban.  ?‍♂️

[eyeball]

Pharmacare will be nice though. One less thing.

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by eyeball

[CdnFox]

40 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Pharmacare will be nice though. One less thing.

 

Frankly i think if we're going to have universal health care we should have pharmacare - paying for the guy who can tell you what you need but not paying for what  you need sounds stupid to me - but most provinces already have some version of it, and most people have it through work.  I'm not sure the average person will see a big difference.

[eyeball]

Between dental care and pharmacare Jagmeet Singh accomplished more for more Canadians in a couple of years than anyone else in Parliament combined has.

I'd be happy with one minority government after another if it meant a trend towards more comprehensive social/healthcare lie this.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Between dental care and pharmacare Jagmeet Singh accomplished more for more Canadians in a couple of years than anyone else in Parliament combined has.

 

Well don't be silly the dental care is minimal at best and they've achieved nothing with pharmacare so far. And the dental program isn't even a dental program, it's a cash rebate basically.

The kick in the teeth is that most of these people had coverage under existing provincial plans.  The number of people now "covered" who weren't is almost zero.  If the libs ever introduce the 'full dental' coverage they're supposd to be working towards then maybe but they're no where near that.  And pharmacare is in even worse shape

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

'd be happy with one minority government after another if it meant a trend towards more comprehensive social/healthcare lie this.

Well then you're happy with getting nothing.  Which....  i guess you can be, that's up to you, i don't really see the point...

[eyeball]

29 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well then you're happy with getting nothing.  Which....  i guess you can be, that's up to you, i don't really see the point...

Its far better than nothing compared to everything else that isn't getting done.

[CdnFox]

Just now, eyeball said:

Its far better than nothing compared to everything else that isn't getting done.

It isn't - there's no pharmacare benefits at all from this AND the small benefit for dental for a handful of people is already eaten up by inflation. It really is nothing.

Now - it's hardly the biggest complaint people will have about the gov't, sure. But really jaggers sold out his own party and canadians who voted for him for essentially nothing,  And his party is gonig to ride the elevator to the bottom with the liberals.

Other than for purely personal gain reasons this was a stupid move,

[eyeball]

8 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

It isn't...

Well, since your so intent on defending him feel free to list any accomplishments of Trudeau's that benefited Canada more than Singh's.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Well, since your so intent on defending him feel free to list any accomplishments of Trudeau's that benefited Canada more than Singh's.

Legal dope.  That should have been a conservative platform peice years ago, trudeau did it.

Annnnd that's about it for 'good' things he did.   

But singh achieved nothing.  Promises that have amounted to zero benefits for people. And for that he traded away his job and sold out. He Hasn't "ACHIEVED anything. He sold his party to the liberals for something that they took and used as their accomplishment and put next to nothing into.  That's not an 'achievement' for him - that's an achievement for the liberals.  "We bought a stable 4 year gov't for the price of something we were happy to promise to do that we didn't really have to do anything with that we wern't doing already".

 

 

[eyeball]

36 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

But singh achieved nothing.  Promises that have amounted to zero benefits for people.

Zero... literally and absolutely zero benefit. Not one dime has been spent providing dental care?

Bullshit.

[CdnFox]

32 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Zero... literally and absolutely zero benefit. Not one dime has been spent providing dental care?

Bullshit.

Ok  who benefitted? Who's got that money for dental care who wouldkn't have been covered under the provincial progams?  Name a person.

 We both know you're flailing your arms here because you know i'm right and you're pissed. Don't know why you feel the need to be a jackass.

But lets go through it - you have to be under 90  grand a year 90 grand a year as a family  (Fair enough it's meant for lower income homes)  AND the child has to be under 12 AND - and here's the big one - you can't have been eligible for any other gov't or insurance etc program.

Now - the vast majority of provinces already have programs. Ontario for example coveres kids 17 and younger under their happy smiles program for free for lower income homes.

So right off the bat - they have to use the ontario program first And they should - its'  a better program.  So the fed program doesn't apply to most kids in ontario.  The other provinces are similar.

If a few people DO benefit - then they can apply for a rebate. Which means you have to have the cash up front to do the work. and then if you wait, and if you remember to fill out the forms and submit - you might get a benefit.

But if you do - it's TINY.  Basically a tooth cleaning.  Is that a 'dental program'?  If you need 3 cavities filled  etc you're completely out of luck, no denal for you.

AND - the cost of living increases for a small family which are a direct result of trudeau's policies actually exceeds any possibe benefit - so even if you DO manage to take avantage of this you're STILL in the hole overall.

This program is useless. IF it  actualy helps any canadians it will be a tiny number.

So lets be clear.  This is a cash hand out to people who already had enough money to pay for the dental services (or got it free already) and is in no way shape or form a "universal dental" program or anything remotely resembling one.

Singh sold out is party for literallyl nothing.

[eyeball]

So not zero after all.

Cheers!

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

So not zero after all.

Cheers!

So no argument and you resort to dishonesty.  Did you come up with a name?

This is why nobody respects the left.

[blackbird]

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

Between dental care and pharmacare Jagmeet Singh accomplished more for more Canadians in a couple of years than anyone else in Parliament combined has.

I'd be happy with one minority government after another if it meant a trend towards more comprehensive social/healthcare lie this.

You love a welfare state.  Maybe everyone could just work and let government take 80% of their pay cheques and provide cradle to grave care for everyone.  Almost everyone would work for the government.  In such a system, government employees would be well-paid and have fat pensions, but everyone else would be barely surviving and would have no freedom.  Bit brother would decide everything.

[Moonbox]

13 hours ago, CdnFox said:

It isn't - there's no pharmacare benefits at all from this AND the small benefit for dental for a handful of people is already eaten up by inflation. It really is nothing.

No, it's not eaten up by inflation, and you can't just wave your hands around again and pretend this is so. 

It's absolutely helpful for the poorer people who can't afford dental, and dental is something they should be provided with.  If we don't want to be paying welfare for them, then we should help make sure they have teeth.  Nobody is hiring you if your mouth is a hellscape.   

[CdnFox]

29 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

No, it's not eaten up by inflation, and you can't just wave your hands around again and pretend this is so. 

 

Well of course it is. This isn't even a debatable point.  If i give you 300 dollars to help you with your life, and then raise the price of everything you buy by 600 dollars, what's your net situation?  It's MINUS 300 dollars.

Inflation is a real thing, i know some on the left like to pretend it isn't but it is. So if the gov't gives with one hand and takes with the other you're no further ahead.

 

Quote

It's absolutely helpful for the poorer people who can't afford dental,

Why. There's already programs in place in most provinces (probably all, i didn't check  them all tho so have to say most).  In fact those programs are mostly better than what the libs offer and you don't qualify for what the libs offer if you're getting it from the province. And the MAXIMIUM benefit if you've got no income is 600 dollars and it quickly goes down from there. So basically a teeth cleaning and maybe a little left over to put towards a cavity.  IF little johnny needs braces this ain't gonna help.

This was pointless. It's just another liberal cash hand out to try to win votes, it's NOT a "dental care program" in the slighest and it's helping next to no one. And yet it will cost billions of dollars mostly in set up and admin.  What a useless waste

 

[Moonbox]

8 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well of course it is. This isn't even a debatable point.  If i give you 300 dollars to help you with your life, and then raise the price of everything you buy by 600 dollars, what's your net situation?  It's MINUS 300 dollars.

Your hand-waving math would only make sense if the dental plan was what caused the inflation, which it didn't.  Every single person who'll receive these benefits is way better off for it, and this isn't even a debatable point.  

[Nexii]

I'm for the universal dental and pharmacare. 

NDP isn't really up or down, the last Nanos poll has them projected at 32 seats

Though I agree with the sentiment. Jagmeet doesn't have the transformational energy that Layton did. Or that Trudeau did in his first year or two. 

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Your hand-waving math would only make sense if the dental plan was what caused the inflation,

"Hand waiving math"     so.... like 300 - 600 was too much for you to work out The calculations were hysterically difficult were they

 So first off - no.  If the gov't gives with one hand and takes with the other then it doesn't matter what causes it - the result is the same.

And second off - all gov't program spending increases inflation. You'll recall that scotia bank report you loved to plug your ears and humm avoiding awhile back which directly noted that the gov't spending was seriously contributing to the problem and a reduction in spending of even 3 percent would basically wipe out the need for interest rate hikes to fight inflation (or reduce inflation if interest rate hikes remained)

Again - not a debatable issue. Gov't spending almost without exception increases inflation.

So no it doesn't matter and yes it does increase inflation.

Quote

which it didn't. 

Because nobody's recieved it you mean. Well - fair point.  But if it was used much then yes it would.

 

Quote

Every single person who'll receive these benefits is way better off for it, and this isn't even a debatable point.  

False. They would have more money for dental if trudeau had done more to curb inflation. So they won't get a benefit, they just take less of a hit.
 

And as previously noted - not that many people will benefit from it who weren't covered by another program anyway.  its a complete waste that cost billions to set up and will achieve nothing.

[CdnFox]

7 minutes ago, Nexii said:

I'm for the universal dental and pharmacare. 

I seriously doubt we'll see either from the feds.  But pharmacare already exists in most provinces.  Where do you feel your province's plan falls short?

Dental for kids already exists too but i realize you mean an ACTUAL universal dental program.

Like i said if we're going to bother with universal health care at all i don't see how you could claim that medicine and dental wasn't part of health care and probably should be included, but it mostly is covered right now between provincial plans and employment plans.

Might be nice to see an optional 'pharma-dental' insurance plan that people could opt into that was very low cost for those who were low income with no work coverage or something.

[Nationalist]

7 hours ago, blackbird said:

You love a welfare state.  Maybe everyone could just work and let government take 80% of their pay cheques and provide cradle to grave care for everyone.  Almost everyone would work for the government.  In such a system, government employees would be well-paid and have fat pensions, but everyone else would be barely surviving and would have no freedom.  Bit brother would decide everything.

Welcome to the Soviet Union.

Oh...with the added benefit that they know the public won't like the taste of communism, so booze and other vices will be dirt cheap, and infidelity will become a sport.

Oh Goodie!

[Nexii]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I seriously doubt we'll see either from the feds.  But pharmacare already exists in most provinces.  Where do you feel your province's plan falls short?

Dental for kids already exists too but i realize you mean an ACTUAL universal dental program.

Like i said if we're going to bother with universal health care at all i don't see how you could claim that medicine and dental wasn't part of health care and probably should be included, but it mostly is covered right now between provincial plans and employment plans.

Might be nice to see an optional 'pharma-dental' insurance plan that people could opt into that was very low cost for those who were low income with no work coverage or something.

Yea well the provincial pharmacare is flawed. And so may be the NDP's vision for federal, honestly I haven't looked into it.

Basically you need to be really low income (near to zero really) to qualify. Generally speaking it's overly complex (like doing one's taxes) and it also puts the burden on the people to apply for it. This in turn makes the administrative costs huge to process the requests. It's archaic compared to how private insurers do it.