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Hamas Attacks Israel


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My take on history:
 
The Jews are the closest thing to an "indigenous peoples" to this land.  It is very ironic that they are labeled as "colonizers".
 
1947: the UN Plan was to create 2 states, the Arabs rejected the plan, started a war and lost.  When you lose a war, you lose land and people need to move.  This is not fair, but the sad truth for millions of the least fortunate people.  ~700,000 Palestinians became refugees, around the same time ~900,000 Jews were forced to move out of other Arab countries.  During this time there were literally 10's of millions of refugees around the world (eg: Germany, India, Pakistan...)
 
Between 1949 and 1967, the West Bank was controlled by Jordan and Gaza by Egypt.  Why was there no Palestinian state declared sometime in these 18 years?  There were no "occupied territories".  The PLO was founded in 1964, which part of Palestine did they want to "liberate"?
 
More wars in 1967 and 1973.  Again the Arabs tried to drive the Jews into the sea and lost.
 
Peace was offered in the 1993 Oslo accords, rejected by Palestinian leadership.  As well as in 2000 at Camp David.  Other offers for peace have been refused by Palestinians.
 
In 2005 all settlers were were withdrawn from Gaza, Hamas was elected, there was a war between Hamas and the PLO.  Hamas's constitution states that they want to destroy Israel and kill or drive all Jews
out.  Their actions are in-line with this.  
 
This history, like all history is filled with evil people and acts.  There is no possible way to completely reconcile the injustices of the past.  We could compare Arab atrocities against Jews, and vice versa, but what's the point...
 
***
 
There are now 14 million people on this land (Israel, West Bank  and Gaza) 7 million Jews, 7 million Palestinians.  Perhaps with a few exceptions, all have the right to live where they are now.  All people should live in peace and security.  This is what is stated in the Israeli constitution.
 
10/7: As I learned about the horrific atrocities and saw Palestinians celebrating, I told myself, "well at least now the western world will realize how evil Hamas is and will support Israel in eliminating them."   I was so wrong and I still can't figure it out:
 
Israel, warts and all, are defending their people (note: this includes 2-million non-Jewish Israelis):
-As I mentioned, their constitution is one of peace
-As a country, they have the power to kill/displace all Palestinians, yet they restrain
-Practically every young Israeli goes through military service and walks around with a machine gun, yet they restrain
-Build bomb shelters and the Iron Dome to defend their civilians
-In Israel, there are 2 million Arab-Israelis with full citizenship and rights living in peace and security
-Israel is among the best countries in the world for women's rights
-Ditto for other minority rights
-Ditto for free speech, religion and other civil rights
 
Hamas, in contrast:
-Openly calls for the destruction of Israel in their constitution
-Rapes women and celebrates this and violence
-Kidnaps babies and seniors
-Promises to repeat the attacks of 10/7
-Rewards people and their families for killing Jews
-Fires rockets into Israel
-Uses civilians as human shields
-Kills homosexuals
-Women's rights?
-Minority rights?
-Free speech and democracy?
 
I'm sure glad that it's Israel with the dominant military, not the other way around.
 
For peace its' simple: Hamas must be defeated and the hostages returned.  The support of Hamas is prolonging the suffering of innocent Palestinians.
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Hezbollah.  Hamas.  What is it with Iran?  And they’ve been jonesing for nukes like nothing else, and that is definitely a problem.  Not just because of Iran’s hate for Israel, but also because of the two aforementioned H’s.  The most recent example is the billions Biden gave Iran, and then Hamas attacked, and as terrorists would.

Once Iran has nukes in its stockpile, they will end up in Hamas’s hands, just like all of the other weaponry that does.  Because of those in the inner circle of Iran’s leadership that will see to it that a stray nuke will go missing somehow, or a facility be found unsecured.

Then should a nuke explode in Israel, Iran could claim innocence, or some other nonsense.  Those bent on mass murder can be so creative, can’t they?  This must never happen.

And so it won’t.  Israel is going to bomb Iran, taking out its nuclear capacity, just as they’ve done in times past.  It’s inevitable, it’s a done deal.  Count on it.

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On 2/16/2024 at 6:23 AM, carepov said:

The Jews are the closest thing to an "indigenous peoples" to this land.  It is very ironic that they are labeled as "colonizers".

The vast majority of Jews that migrated to Israel are of European descent. What's ironic is that even Israelis refer to themselves as settlers

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On 2/18/2024 at 12:39 AM, eyeball said:

The vast majority of Jews that migrated to Israel are of European descent.

Wrong:

"Nearly half of all Israeli Jews are descended from immigrants from the European Jewish diaspora. Approximately the same number are descended from immigrants from Arab countries, Iran, Turkey and Central Asia."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelis#:~:text=Nearly half of all Israeli,Iran%2C Turkey and Central Asia.

On 2/18/2024 at 12:39 AM, eyeball said:

What's ironic is that even Israelis refer to themselves as settlers

Also wrong:

Jews living in the West Bank are settlers.  Jews moving to Israel were not settlers, they were/are "making aliyah"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aliyah#:~:text=The vast majority came from,outbreaks of anti-Semitism there.

 

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1 hour ago, carepov said:

There are 2 million Palestinians living peacefully with 7 million Jews in Israel.

Barely...as 2nd class citizens at best, descendants of the Palestinians who lived there before Israel was created, grudgingly and stingily granted rights that are far from equal to those enjoyed by their Jewish occupiers.

....there is an extensive legal infrastructure that inherently makes Palestinian citizens unequal to Jewish citizens. 

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/what-the-war-means-for-palestinians-inside-israel

Then there are the other 3 million Palestinians under Israel's boot heel.

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23 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Barely...as 2nd class citizens at best, descendants of the Palestinians who lived there before Israel was created, grudgingly and stingily granted rights that are far from equal to those enjoyed by their Jewish occupiers.

 

I've actually talked to Palestinians from Israel and that's not the story they tell at all.
And it's worth noting  that some serve in their elected gov't.

In any case - the palestinian terrorist gov 't who started this war sure isn't making things better.

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7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Bullshit.

No bullshit at all. Sorry sparky.  You can argue that one family doesn't represent a whole country if you like but yep, i did, and they're currently living in bc.

I know - i know.  Anything that gets in the way of your preconceived leftist echo chamber notions is like splashing holy water on a vampire but i think at best you're grossly exaggerating. 

Sorry punkin -  but hey, i'm sure it's all harper's fault right? (he's over there right now! Coincidence?!!?! I think NOT!!!  there you go, you can blame him and feel better).

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8 hours ago, eyeball said:

Barely...as 2nd class citizens at best, descendants of the Palestinians who lived there before Israel was created, grudgingly and stingily granted rights that are far from equal to those enjoyed by their Jewish occupiers.

....there is an extensive legal infrastructure that inherently makes Palestinian citizens unequal to Jewish citizens. 

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/what-the-war-means-for-palestinians-inside-israel

Then there are the other 3 million Palestinians under Israel's boot heel.

We agree then, 2 million Palestinians live peacefully in Israel.

I agree with you and your linked interviewee, Amjad Iraqi, that after decades of progress in this integration there is still not perfect equality.  This view is also supported by Lucy Aharish that I saw being interviewed by Bari Weiss.

How do you think a Jewish minority would be treated in a Palestinian state?

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1 hour ago, carepov said:

We agree then, 2 million Palestinians live peacefully in Israel.

Barely.

1 hour ago, carepov said:

How do you think a Jewish minority would be treated in a Palestinian state?

These days? Terribly I expect. But after a generation or two of having lived in one another's shoes they'd probably all be pretty tired of still not having gotten over it.

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52 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Sure... knowing you what you thought they meant to say is not what they said or even what you think you heard.

So you made it up. 

ROFLMAO - Better replace that brain-fuse you blew trying to come up with that :)

They said what they said and it paints a very different picture than what you do. And they lived there and you have not.  I'm sure it's not perfect but its a lot better than you're claiming.  And they can vote and work with political parties and they can be elected to office and frequently are, there have been tonnes of arabic members of the knesset.

They have the same rights - they don't always agree on policy and they are a minority voice but they have agency and can participate and they have the same freedoms to run their lives.

I know - it's horrible for you to hear things aren't that horrible :P   what will you do without the imagined vision of the evil nazi-jew oppressor?  You lefties really do need someone to hate just to get through the day don't you,

In any case, i doubt very much the terrorist-induced war is going to help speed any great reforms along to make anything better. 

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33 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Barely.

Well then it's probably not a good idea to allow more Palestinians into Israel as to not disrupt the delicate peace that is currently in place.

33 minutes ago, eyeball said:

These days? Terribly I expect. But after a generation or two of having lived in one another's shoes they'd probably all be pretty tired of still not having gotten over it.

What are your expectations based on?

I would expect that any Jews living in a Palestinian state would be either killed or forced to leave very quickly.  This opinion is based on:

a) There are almost no Jewish minorities (and very few other minorities) in 22 Arab states

b) Jews were ethnically cleansed from many Arab states

c) The Hamas charter calls for the ethnic cleansing of all Jews from the river to the sea

d) The actions of the Palestinian leadership and their supporters that are inline with their Charter and their stated aims

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34 minutes ago, carepov said:

Well then it's probably not a good idea to allow more Palestinians into Israel as to not disrupt the delicate peace that is currently in place.

I bet Palestinians were saying the same thing about 5 million Jews ago.

42 minutes ago, carepov said:

What are your expectations based on?

 

I would expect that any Jews living in a Palestinian state would be either killed or forced to leave very quickly.  This opinion is based on:

a) There are almost no Jewish minorities (and very few other minorities) in 22 Arab states

b) Jews were ethnically cleansed from many Arab states

c) The Hamas charter calls for the ethnic cleansing of all Jews from the river to the sea

d) The actions of the Palestinian leadership and their supporters that are inline with their Charter and their stated aims

My hope is that people will finally get tired of fighting. But my expectation, based on your sense of ABCD, not to mention the ongoing carnage occurring in Gaza, is that this will remain a forever war until the entire region is finally turned to glass.

I'm sure even you will agree that right wing conservatives can be expected to blame it all on everyone but themselves until the 2nd coming.

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56 minutes ago, eyeball said:

My hope is that people will finally get tired of fighting. But my expectation, based on your sense of ABCD, not to mention the ongoing carnage occurring in Gaza, is that this will remain a forever war until the entire region is finally turned to glass.

Most people, including Jews and Palestinians were already tired of fighting long ago.  The principle exception is Hamas and their supporters.  That's why I said: The support of Hamas is prolonging the suffering of innocent Palestinians.  The West should be united in calling for the quick and complete disarmament of Hamas.

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

I'm sure even you will agree that right wing conservatives can be expected to blame it all on everyone but themselves until the 2nd coming.

I do not support Netanyahu or Likud.  I see no link between the level of violence and the party in power in Israel.  Support for right wing conservatives in Israel is a result of ongoing violence not a cause. 

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2 hours ago, carepov said:

Most people, including Jews and Palestinians were already tired of fighting long ago.  The principle exception is Hamas and their supporters.  That's why I said: The support of Hamas is prolonging the suffering of innocent Palestinians.  The West should be united in calling for the quick and complete disarmament of Hamas.

 

No, the west should be changing the regime in Iran - everything else is just mowing the lawn. 

Quote

I do not support Netanyahu or Likud.  I see no link between the level of violence and the party in power in Israel.

I do, and that's why I don't support Israel anymore than I do Iran.

Quote

Support for right wing conservatives in Israel is a result of ongoing violence not a cause. 

Whatever. As I see it the only path forward is to put secular lefties in charge of the ME.

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3 hours ago, eyeball said:

 

No, the west should be changing the regime in Iran - everything else is just mowing the lawn. 

I do, and that's why I don't support Israel anymore than I do Iran.

Whatever. As I see it the only path forward is to put secular lefties in charge of the ME.

Unfortunately, the West has insufficient power (ie political will) to change the regime in Iran.

There have been many labour governments in Israel, yet no peace.  There is no link.

I cannot understand how one could give equal support to Iran and Israel, can you demystify?

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3 hours ago, carepov said:

I cannot understand how one could give equal support to Iran and Israel, can you demystify?

It's not equal support, it's equal contempt for governments dominated by good for nothing conservative religious fundamentalism.

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8 hours ago, eyeball said:

It's not equal support, it's equal contempt for governments dominated by good for nothing conservative religious fundamentalism.

I am equally mystified by your  equal contempt.  And this contempt is not based on 

-womens rights

-treatment if minorities

-democracy

-freedom of expression

-child poverty

-violence

https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/03/1134782

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2 hours ago, carepov said:

I am equally mystified by your  equal contempt.  And this contempt is not based on...

It takes two to Tango...does that help?

As for the absence of accountability...I guess you don't know me very well.  Suffice to say there's the Tango then there's the mosh pit.

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