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9 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Ok let’s assume your description is accurate  (I’ve had DEI  and it’s never said anything that explicit). NOTE that your example doesn’t suggest the black person is unqualified. In fact it says they are a standout so how do you get from there to “unqualified”?

 

The answer is in the second part of your post. No  2 hiring managers see rhat same thing and in the real world probably either standout applicant can meet the hiring manager’s requirements   At the end of the day the hiring manager doesn’t really know how good each final candidate be and is making an educated guess based on a number of factors including subjective and unconscious factors like physical appearance.  Even amongst white people, attractive candidates are vastly favoured to less attractive ones. I’ve known a lot of people who look great on paper and in interviews but can’t hold down a job because they can’t get along with people and that’s not something that will show up on a resume or job interview and relying on references is a weak safeguard. In fact so-called “high achievers” with fancy degrees and resumes are often notoriously difficult to work with  and can be very costly when their toxic personality causes other team members to quit or complain or become demotivated. Then when you finally terminate them they litigate excessively . 

Like I said...the decision is somewhat subjective. However, when corporations tell managers to hire based on skin colour, that's a complete removal of a meritocracy. 

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8 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Of course that can work both ways.

Sure it can work in a number of ways. I suppose the ultimate expression of anti-white racism, can be found in South Africa.

Here's a thought. Why not do away with racist ideologies and instill real meritocracy?

Edited by Nationalist
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2 hours ago, Rebound said:

You still use phone books?

What “concern”? You’re “concerned” that minorities are being treated equally, as if these people are human beings with the same rights as anyone else?

And there it is again.. If you have to lie to make your point, then you don't have a very good point do you .

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11 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Sure it can work in a number of ways. I suppose the ultimate expression of anti-white racism, can be found in South Africa.

Here's a thought. Why not do away with racist ideologies and instill real meritocracy?

You don't think Apartheid was racist? Racism will always exist because like antisemitism it is a means people can use to blame others for their own problems.

Edited by Aristides
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2 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You don't think Apartheid was racist? Racism will always exist because like antisemitism it is a means people can use to blame others for their own problems.

Prejudice will exist, racism dosen't always exist.  Both are born from our natural and very necessary instincts to try to try to assume atributes of things we don't know about or that seem different from us. As a tool for survival for our ancestors that was critical. Now it's more of a hinderance.

And because we focus on racial issues as being the 'defining factor' racism becomes rampant and unavoidable. But - if we taught everyone that merit was the most important thing instead of race then that radically changes.  Instead of 'i'm black and he's white', the issue becomes  "i'm a 23 on the hiearchy scale and he's a 25 so we're pretty similar.  Screw those 11's.."  :)

So you get essentially a 'class' issue - and the way to beat THAT is to have so many different ladders to success for different things than everyone can find something they're comfortable with. Then it becomes "i'm strong in computer tech, that guy is strong in machinery repair, that one is in art etc etc.

When you have enough things that people can be good at, then everyone can be good at something and people stop seeing race or gender or the like and tend to see value or merit.

You never get rid of it completely but you can come pretty close.

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52 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You don't think Apartheid was racist? Racism will always exist because like antisemitism it is a means people can use to blame others for their own problems.

South Africa was and still is racist as hell. 

Indeed, a lot of discrimination is simply a means people can use to blame others for their own problems. In fact, this equity program is exactly that.

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I have attended the Grand Prix at Spa-Francorchamps in Belgium

undoubtedly the most fearsome circuit of them all, where the death defying Eau Rouge awaits the pilots

but when it comes to enjoying a race as a spectator

nothing compares to Montreal

the drivers all say it is the best, the closest they ever come to their fans, in downtown Montreal

and all you have to do is jump on the Metro

ten minutes later, you walk straight into the circuit at Île Notre-Dame

where I had the privilege to see the greatest driver of them all

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On 6/2/2023 at 7:30 AM, Perspektiv said:

Its effective. If I get angry, then am against gay rights. If am silent, they take over and sooner or later, tampon commercials will feature trans women only.

"See! Perspektiv is transphobic. Proof these victims need our help".

It allows them to pressure businesses to show they are "inclusive enough".

Whats this even mean?

I opted for my current work vs RCMP job I qualified for, because they had race quotas. 

Me being black, made me a better fit than a white cop who was more qualified based on testing.

To some minorities this is great, but to be a cop and know am not the best possible officer for the job, to me is disturbing.

On paper they are inclusive, due to the volume of women and minorities.

How is this not anything more than virtue signaling?

Kind of like Trudeau stating 50% of his cabinet is female.

Okay, good for you. Are they all qualified for the job? When did this stop mattering? 

Black doctors provide better medical care to black patients than white doctors. They listen more attentively to these patients. This has been proven in many studies. And black police officers can help a police force better serve their communities. The concept of policing is to provide safety to a community, not to invade it and terrorize it.  It is important to have people of color integrated into police forces. 
 

What is the definition of “best”?  The highest IQ? Because when Dr. Binet created his IQ test, he did so by discarding questions which black people fared well in and keeping questions which they more typically failed to answer. This was his definition of “intelligence.”

Black people excel in many areas of society. Police forces should have the best black people they can get and diverse, integrated police forces are better police forces. 

Edited by Rebound
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6 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Black doctors provide better medical care to black patients than white doctors. They listen more attentively to these patients. This has been proven in many studies. And black police officers can help a police force better serve their communities. The concept of policing is to provide safety to a community, not to invade it and terrorize it.  It is important to have people of color integrated into police forces. 
 

Associates with this is: What is the definition of “best”?  The highest IQ? Because when Dr. Binet created his IQ test, he did so by discarding questions which black people fared well in and keeping questions which they more typically failed to answer. This was his definition of “intelligence.”

Black people excel in many areas of society. Police forces should have the best black people they can get and diverse, integrated police forces are better police forces. 

Which police force is invading and terrorizing?

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On 6/1/2023 at 6:52 PM, CrakHoBarbie said:

Oh dear, NASCAR has lost its way. I guess we'll have to crush those woketards too. :D

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22 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Black doctors provide better medical care to black patients than white doctors.

If your doctor is attentive and competent, it won't matter what skin color that they are.

My doctor is white, am black. He is attentive and competent, so his first questions were based on my family history, to gather data on me. He is incredibly thorough.

As a result, he's helped me catch issues before they worsened in being proactive.

I have never looked for a black doctor. I look for a doctor. Most people want a competent doctor, with strong bedside manners.

I have had a female doctor again, very competent, assess me just as properly as male doctors had (if not better). 

I don't buy a second that race plays a bigger role than merit, when it comes to medical care.

You may be onto something with gender, as my wife is more comfortable with having her physicals done by women, but both of us have had them done by the opposing gender and were just as comfortable with the professional and competent treatment that we got.

30 minutes ago, Rebound said:

The concept of policing is to provide safety to a community, not to invade it and terrorize it.  

Isn't the presence in itself, providing safety?

Why is a police called to a bad neighborhood? To terrorize, or in response to higher crime rates? 

If police terrorize say, gang filled neighborhoods, then why is it when funding is reduced (and thus, policing effectiveness), that crime rates spike, and the demand for police presence increases?

People who hate police, will not respect the officers, regardless of their race.

It takes more funding, to provide communities with more integrating types of activities. Not less.

I remember police officers coming to hang out with kids, being silly, as part of programs offered in neighborhoods with high crime.

I learned young, that police weren't a threat to me. My exposure was good. 

They are a threat to those breaking the law, as they should be.

I don't know. I would rather the best officers, with great funding to train appropriately,  and serious consequences for breaching the laws that they have sworn to uphold.

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On 6/3/2023 at 3:03 AM, WestCanMan said:

Can you point out the word "unqualified" below? Or a term/phrase/sentence that says in a roundabout way that the black person is unqualified?

The candidate that best fits your requirements... Get it?

There are a lot of things that make candidates "stand outs". If you ever run a business you'll meet people that you wish you could hire if they only had experience in the areas that you need them to have experience in, but if they don't have it, they don't have it, and you can waste a lot of time and energy training someone to do something that either they eventually suck at or maybe they'll just decide that this job's really not for them for whatever reason.

The nice thing about hiring people who are qualified is that they already have the exact type of experience that they need to fit in, and if they aren't up to snuff after gaining all that prior experience then you can tell instantly, not after 3 months of training. "Hire slowly, fire quickly." Like, really quickly. 

There are actually a million ways to suck at any job that's worth paying someone a decent sum of money for. You could fill a set of encyclopedias with them all. I honestly hate this topic now that I think about it. 

You’re clearly not following the conversation I was having with @Nationalist  Even he admits that at the end of the day the difference between the final short list of top candidates is highly subjective and far from fool-proof. That personal subjectivity tends to work against people who are not white, able-bodied or who are physically unattractive, non-conforming appearance, etc.  Most of the hiring managers who discriminate against candidates do so subconsciously and are not even consciously aware they are doing it. 

Edited by BeaverFever
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18 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

You’re clearly not following the conversation I was having with @Nationalist  Even he admits that at the end of the day the difference between the final short list of top candidates is highly subjective and far from fool-proof.

I was actually 100% ON topic, you were just called out for being wrong.

The example that he gave explicitly stated that one candidate "fits your requirements best" and you went on to accuse him of aying that the black person was unqualified.

If you can find evidence of him saying that "the black person was unqualified" then you made a valid point, but you can't, because he did not. 

Quote

That personal subjectivity tends to work against people who are not white,

That's just a divisive leftist narrative. 

Quote

able-bodied or who are physically unattractive, non-conforming appearance, etc.

Able-bodied is an advantage. Able-bodied people are capable of doing more. They take less sick days. 

If we both have factories and I hire able-bodied people while you hire fat people with diabetes, I'll have higher production, less sick days taken (which translates to less hiring and training of temps), less workplace accidents, and it won't be long before you're out of business.

Even in an office setting, healthier people are capable of putting in longer, more productive hours. 

And one day I'd love to take as many breaks as a cigarette smoker. 

Quote

 physically unattractive, non-conforming appearance, 

This is an actual issue, and completely unfair, but has nothing to do with race. 

Quote

Most of the hiring managers who discriminate against candidates do so subconsciously and are not even consciously aware they are doing it. 

Then again, you'd hate to hire someone and find out that they were the type of BLM supporters who feel like they get to wear political slogans to work, right? Or people who feel like they're safe from covid because they took a vaccine, but they can't work beside unvaccinated people because they're worried that the unvaccinated people will give them covid...

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On 6/3/2023 at 11:22 AM, Perspektiv said:

If your doctor is attentive and competent, it won't matter what skin color that they are.

My doctor is white, am black. He is attentive and competent, so his first questions were based on my family history, to gather data on me. He is incredibly thorough.

As a result, he's helped me catch issues before they worsened in being proactive.

I have never looked for a black doctor. I look for a doctor. Most people want a competent doctor, with strong bedside manners.

I have had a female doctor again, very competent, assess me just as properly as male doctors had (if not better). 

I don't buy a second that race plays a bigger role than merit, when it comes to medical care.

You may be onto something with gender, as my wife is more comfortable with having her physicals done by women, but both of us have had them done by the opposing gender and were just as comfortable with the professional and competent treatment that we got.

Isn't the presence in itself, providing safety?

Why is a police called to a bad neighborhood? To terrorize, or in response to higher crime rates? 

If police terrorize say, gang filled neighborhoods, then why is it when funding is reduced (and thus, policing effectiveness), that crime rates spike, and the demand for police presence increases?

People who hate police, will not respect the officers, regardless of their race.

It takes more funding, to provide communities with more integrating types of activities. Not less.

I remember police officers coming to hang out with kids, being silly, as part of programs offered in neighborhoods with high crime.

I learned young, that police weren't a threat to me. My exposure was good. 

They are a threat to those breaking the law, as they should be.

I don't know. I would rather the best officers, with great funding to train appropriately,  and serious consequences for breaching the laws that they have sworn to uphold.

You appear to be blind to the plight of many black people in America. Your attitude is that if something isn’t YOUR problem, it isn’t a problem for anyone.
 

“Maternal mortality is higher among Black than White people in the United States… There were 330 maternal deaths among 5,679,044 patients (5.8 per 100,000). Black patients died more often (11.5 per 100,000) than White patients (4.8 per 100,000) (relative risk, 2.38; 95% confidence interval, 1.89-2.98).”

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33453183/#:~:text=Black patients died more often,interval%2C 1.89-2.98).

Edited by Rebound
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59 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Your attitude is that if something isn’t YOUR problem, it isn’t a problem for anyone.

Being black, ideally speaking, I would have access to a black doctor. It just isn't a realistic option for most black people. 

Competence and bedside manners then become critical.

A doctor who is competent, will be thorough.

What you're pointing to isn't a racial issue.

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1 hour ago, Rebound said:

Many law abiding black people in America live in fear of the police. 

Many law abiding people in america fear cholesterol. That doesn't mean that it's invading or intimidating anyone.

Specifically which police force is doing that?

Edited by CdnFox
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12 hours ago, Rebound said:

You appear to be blind to the plight of many black people in America. Your attitude is that if something isn’t YOUR problem, it isn’t a problem for anyone.
 

Speaking for black people now are you? Well that's the left for you - white people saving other races whether they want it or not.  Thank god you're here to fight his battles for him, hes' obviously incompetent to do so on his own right?

12 hours ago, Rebound said:

“Maternal mortality is higher among Black than White people in the United States… There were 330 maternal deaths among 5,679,044 patients (5.8 per 100,000). Black patients died more often (11.5 per 100,000) than White patients (4.8 per 100,000) (relative risk, 2.38; 95% confidence interval, 1.89-2.98).”

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33453183/#:~:text=Black patients died more often,interval%2C 1.89-2.98).

So you're just assuming that the kids die due to prejudice. But that's not what the report found.

Comparison of mortality, regardless of race, across hospital types revealed that among teaching hospitals, mortality was similar in Black-serving and nonBlack-serving hospitals. However, among nonteaching hospitals, mortality was significantly higher in Black-serving vs nonBlack-serving hospitals (adjusted relative risk, 1.47; 95% confidence interval, 1.15-1.87). Notably, 53% of Black patients delivered in nonteaching, Black-serving hospitals compared with just 19% of White patients. Among nonteaching hospitals, 47% of Black-White disparities in maternal in-hospital mortality were attributable to delivering at Black-serving hospitals.

So there's no indication that the colour of the doctor makes any difference at all -  whether the hospital is teaching or non teaching makes a BIG difference.

So offering this as proof that black doctors give better care to black people is completely and utterly false.

Once again - the left has to lie to make it's point.

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1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Speaking for black people now are you?

Just frustrating to see people making everything a racial issue.

I have never had a black doctor in my entire life. We have a massive doctor shortage in Canada, and so to demand a black doctor would be incredibly unrealistic. Ridiculous, really.

People need to learn how to read data.

The worst doctors I had, were incompetent or rather, had horrific bedside manners, and didn't listen.

This isn't a racial issue.

IE, I had serious testicular pain for months, and it caused shooting pain down my foot and lower back.

I didn't have my current doctor, so the doctor at the time dismissed it as just being stress. I joked to friends that I could show up with a broken leg, and he would dismiss it as stress. "Just stay off the leg, and drink some chamomile tea".

The pain didn't subside, and worsened.

I got a second and third opinion as knew something was wrong.

Finally got a competent doctor who booked me an ultrasound. 

I had a large testicular cyst which was causing blood flow issues.

I know of someone who died from colon cancer, due to incompetent doctors who dismissed red flag warnings from patients.

This person in particular, was reduced to crying with how severe their stomach pain was. Once at point of screaming in agony at any false move they were determined to find a doctor who would look into it. They did. It was too late. A very large hole in their colon, and an incredibly advanced stage of cancer which spread to other organs. Stage 4 cancer. This person was 29.

How could one twist this into a racial issue? The race of the horrible doctor is irrelevant.

Any doctor worth their salt, will do an in depth analysis of your family history when they see you.

Like a car mechanic, will gather data and ask probing questions to make sure they provide adequate care.

Its like going to a mechanic that specializes in diesel and gas cars and trucks, and refusing to go there, because they haven't dealt with Italian brake calipers. 

You have to keep in mind, I grew up around a lot of black people who blamed white people for their plight.

When I started becoming successful, I was accused of being white o_O

So, white people are to blame, or your crab mind that would rather blame all others but yourself, including your own for failing to succeed? 

Of course, some struggle more than others in life, but again struggle isn't a racial issue, either.

Woke policies play into politics, vs assessing the actual cause of the problem, and seeking pragmatic solutions based on the realities surrounding it.

 

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39 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

I have never had a black doctor in my entire life.

Funny story - i do :P  South african. Absolutely great doctor, i'm lucky as hell to have her.

41 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

People need to learn how to read data.

Well this is the thing. They try to read headlines and then they HOPE that the data supports what they think the headline means. And that's why we can't have nice things any more.  :) 

41 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

The worst doctors I had, were incompetent or rather, had horrific bedside manners, and didn't listen.

This isn't a racial issue.

There can be no doubt this is true. I've had my share of run ins with very bad doctors. They were all white. I don't think being white made them bad.

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On the converse.. just because someone hires a black person does not mean that it was due to affirmative action or social justice. We recently hired 3 hispanic males, 1 african American female, 1 Indian (subcontinent) male, and one Turkish female. First, we have a hard and fast requirement of the Bachelors of Science in Economics. Honestly, the time for this has passed. We need programming skills more than any knowledge of price elasticity of demand, Marx, or General Equilibrium. So before they ever appear on our radar.. they have to have that degree. Second, they have to have 2 years of applicable work experience.. as to what qualifies for this? Again, this is very rigid and spelled out. Finally, we have had a severe lack of candidates applying. The white candidates have had countless chances to apply and yet do not. There is no social justice or affirmative action occurring here so why are they not even applying let alone interviewing? Answer is simple.. relatively low salary. 

Edited by impartialobserver
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