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This Biden Economy Sucks!!! I can't even buy a CAR!!


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46 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

See, there is hope for you. One indication of many possibilities... still, its a good thing that you do not work in my office. That alone gives me solace. 

Buddy, the fact that you feel like that bit of info is an indication that things are going well is proof that you still don't know what's going on.

It's not all that surprising that people would initially get sucked in by that story, because 1) that was the intent of it and 2) on its face it makes sense. If you were just going to jump to one conclusion, that would be it.

It's just 100% wrong, and it's weird that you don't know that by now. 

Edited by WestCanMan
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Happening N of the border too. Just watched a newsclip last night how the eonomy grew 3.5% in one month, exports are booming, house prices are still rising, record levels of personal debt, so the Bank of Canada may consider raising interest rates again to cool spending down. Followed instantly by the Debbie Downer warning us the recession is just around the corner.

But it was on MSM and they're so biased they didn't blame it all on Trudeau !

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5 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

the fact that you feel like that bit of info is an indication that things are going well is proof

If you possessed enough reading comprehension, you would know that by including that word, "if"... I was saying that it alone is only a small part of the picture

more evidence that you would be a terrible analyst/programmer. 

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5 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

If you possessed enough reading comprehension, you would know that by including that word, "if"... I was saying that it alone is only a small part of the picture

more evidence that you would be a terrible analyst/programmer. 

Dude, get this through your head... It's not part of the picture at all. It literally has nothing to do with being a sign of a strong economy.

The reason that car prices are up is that there was a drastic shortage of new cars created over the past 3 years. That's it. Your comment that this has nothing to do with the recent past is even more wrong - it has everything to do with that. 

Scarcity is driving up the price of cars, not a strong economy. 

If potato crops went down by 90%, and everyone started producing more corn, wheat, rice, etc to make up for that loss in the staple foods sector, the price of french fries would skyrocket because some people just wouldn't go without them. You'd easily end up paying 5x as much for potatoes as you would for some rice with a similar calorie count. At that point the escalating price of potatoes wouldn't indicate that there was a food shortage (in this scenario there isn't), or that the economy was booming (no mention of that), it would just be an indicator of the gap between supply and demand. It's the most basic concept of economics. Supply vs demand. You've heard it before, you just don't remember it. 

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Just now, WestCanMan said:

Dude, get this through your head... It's not part of the picture at all. It literally has nothing to do with being a sign of a strong economy.

The reason that car prices are up is that there was a drastic shortage of new cars created over the past 3 years. That's it. Your comment that this has nothing to do with the recent past is even more wrong - it has everything to do with that. 

Scarcity is driving up the price of cars, not a strong economy. 

If potato crops went down by 90%, and everyone started producing more corn, wheat, rice, etc to make up for that loss in the staple foods sector, the price of french fries would skyrocket because some people just wouldn't go without them. You'd easily end up paying 5x as much for potatoes as you would for some rice with a similar calorie count. At that point the escalating price of potatoes wouldn't indicate that there was a food shortage (in this scenario there isn't), or that the economy was booming (no mention of that), it would just be an indicator of the gap between supply and demand. It's the most basic concept of economics. Supply vs demand. You've heard it before, you just don't remember it. 

Hahaahaha... wow. well, keep on with someone else. I do not have the patience for you. Thanks for the laugh.

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1 minute ago, impartialobserver said:

Auto sales is part of GDP therefore it has to be part of the story. Small perhaps but not nonexistent. ... but still thanks for the laugh. 

Just for the sake of clarity then, can you say in no uncertain terms that you don't believe that scarcity was the sole cause of the increase in vehicle prices? 

In case you missed that, I'll even let you get away with trying to make the case that scarcity wasn't the ONLY cause. If you think that it might only be 99% due to scarcity and 1% due to something else, then state that "something else", ok? 

If you honestly think that "the strength of the economy" is even 1% responsible for the increase in vehicle prices then just try to make the case for that, so I can put you squarely in your place. 

I know exactly what's coming.... You're gonna go straight to ad hominem attacks again because you know that you don't have a leg to stand on. Ho hum.

Thanks for all the laughs, io.  

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16 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Just for the sake of clarity then, can you say in no uncertain terms that you don't believe that scarcity was the sole cause of the increase in vehicle prices? 

In case you missed that, I'll even let you get away with trying to make the case that scarcity wasn't the ONLY cause. If you think that it might only be 99% due to scarcity and 1% due to something else, then state that "something else", ok? 

If you honestly think that "the strength of the economy" is even 1% responsible for the increase in vehicle prices then just try to make the case for that, so I can put you squarely in your place. 

I know exactly what's coming.... You're gonna go straight to ad hominem attacks again because you know that you don't have a leg to stand on. Ho hum.

Thanks for all the laughs, io.  

Just to put a bow and tie on our thoroughly unproductive discussion(s).. 

1. First, I did not post data about prices.. if you were not so zealous, you would not conveniently overlook this. It is really tough to have a debate with someone that moves the goal posts and does so deliberately

2. Second, most economic metrics have seen increases from April 2020 or so. Have they been true growth or mostly recovery? In my state, Nevada, mostly recovery. The ones where the new max level exceeds that of the pre-pandemic levels were already growing beforehand. 

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5 hours ago, Rebound said:

You don’t know what I look like but I can tell how stupld you are. 
 

You have no evidence that the election was stolen. You now have evidence that Fox News lost over $785 million in a lawsuit for claiming that Dominion Voting Systems products contributed to Trump’s loss. 
 

Trump lost because fewer people voted for him. 

And it's really important that everyone adhere to that right?

Pfft...

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14 hours ago, impartialobserver said:

Just to put a bow and tie on our thoroughly unproductive discussion(s).. 1. First, I did not post data about prices..

No one ever accused you of posting facts or data.

Quote

if you were not so zealous, you would not conveniently overlook this. It is really tough to have a debate with someone that moves the goal posts and does so deliberately

The goalposts never moved. 

Car prices going up had nothing at all to do with the strength of the economy, they went up due to a shortage of new vehicles, period. Supply was way down and as a result people had to pay over MSRP to buy the ones that were available. 

I think you know that by now or you'd have tried to claim otherwise again.

Quote

2. Second, most economic metrics have seen increases from April 2020 or so. Have they been true growth or mostly recovery? In my state, Nevada, mostly recovery. The ones where the new max level exceeds that of the pre-pandemic levels were already growing beforehand. 

Economic recovery to pre-pandemic levels is a good thing. It's normal. 

Used cars selling for more than they were worth brand new is not normal, especially while the economy was still down. 

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1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

No one ever accused you of posting facts or data.

https://www.factorywarrantylist.com/car-sales-by-state.html  (posted by myself.. if you could read, you would know that it focuses on sales not price)
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TOTALSA (posted by rebound)
May 2022.. 13.043 million (the data here is from the stlouisfred URL posted by Rebound... and yet you overlook that it focuses on sales not price)

April 2023... 16.453 million

Simple math shows that 16.453 > 13.043 therefore auto sales are increasing in the short term. Auto sales at some point in the past.. irrelevant

 

I will play your silly game if you own up to moving the goal posts.. it is clear that I was posting about sales and not price. All of your responses have to do with price. Can't debate/discuss anything if the two are not in agreement/same page. 

Edited by impartialobserver
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53 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

https://www.factorywarrantylist.com/car-sales-by-state.html  (posted by myself.. if you could read, you would know that it focuses on sales not price)
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TOTALSA (posted by rebound)
May 2022.. 13.043 million (the data here is from the stlouisfred URL posted by Rebound... and yet you overlook that it focuses on sales not price)

April 2023... 16.453 million

Simple math shows that 16.453 > 13.043 therefore auto sales are increasing in the short term. Auto sales at some point in the past.. irrelevant

From 2012 fwd there have been more than 15 million cars sold in the US each year, with the exception of 3 years, and in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019 there were over 17M cars sold.  https://axlewise.com/car-sales-stats/

Do you wanna guess which 3 years saw less than 15M auto sales?

2020, 2021 and 2022.

In fact, 2022 had the lowest number of auto sales of those 11 years with almost 4M fewer car sales than 2016. 

Wanna know what else is remarkable about 2022?

Car prices jumped by more than any other year since 1947.

How is it that in 2022, with the lowest number of car sales in ten years (down by millions of units), car prices set a record for the largest price increase in 76 years? Was it because of a robust economy? ?

Or was it exactly what you'd smart people would expect when supply falls short of demand? 

If you go back before 2012, to the last time car sales were under 15M, it was because of the 2008 year and the recovery years that followed. And car prices were predictably lowered in 2008.

Lower demand, lowering prices, that's normal in a free market economy.

https://www.npr.org/2023/03/18/1163278082/car-prices-used-cars-electric-vehicles-pandemic

Quote

It has been nearly three years since auto plants around the world started to shut down because of the pandemic.

Yet between the pandemic, an acute shortage of semiconductors and other supply chain snarls, vehicle production has never really returned to normal.

And prices? Hoo boy.

Both new and used prices have stopped skyrocketing. In fact, both dipped slightly in February.

But the average new-vehicle transaction price is still $48,763, according to Kelley Blue Book. Before the pandemic, the average new vehicle sold for $37,876.

 

Quote

I will play your silly game if you own up to moving the goal posts.. it is clear that I was posting about sales and not price. All of your responses have to do with price. Can't debate/discuss anything if the two are not in agreement/same page. 

The goalposts have never moved.

The OP tried to claim that car prices were high because the economy was awesome, that was wrong AF and I said as much.

Then you chimed in said that it was one indicator of a strong economy and that was wrong AF also. 

Prices are high because of a supply issue, period. 

Quote

Auto sales at some point in the past.. irrelevant

It's irrelevant to people like you who don't inherently understand economics.

Why would NYLefty care how many cars sold in 2012 or 2016? All he wants is a shiny new car, and the number of sales in the past are absolutely meaningless at that point. So when he found out prices were up, his own biases made him jump to the conclusion that it was because of Biden's awesomeness. He never spent ten seconds trying to find out the real reason or he'd have found out very quickly.

You're in the same boat.

Anyone with a fundamental understanding of economics would instantly know that something unusual was happening when they saw that sales were down by millions of units and yet prices experienced a historic increase. 

I can't even explain it to you. You think that all of these things are irrelevant. That's weird. 

Edited by WestCanMan
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2 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

From 2012 fwd there have been more than 15 million cars sold in the US each year, with the exception of 3 years, and in 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 and 2019 there were over 17M cars sold.  https://axlewise.com/car-sales-stats/

Do you wanna guess which 3 years saw less than 15M auto sales?

2020, 2021 and 2022.

In fact, 2022 had the lowest number of auto sales of those 11 years with almost 4M fewer car sales than 2016. 

Wanna know what else is remarkable about 2022?

Car prices jumped by more than any other year since 1947: 

How is it that in 2022, with the lowest number of car sales in ten years (down by millions of units), car prices set a record for the largest price increase in 76 years? Was it because of a robust economy? ?

Or was it exactly what you'd smart people would expect when supply falls short of demand? 

If you go back before 2012, to the last time car sales were under 15M, it was because of the 2008 year and the recovery years that followed. And car prices were predictably lowered in 2008.

Lower demand, lowering prices, that's normal in a free market economy.

https://www.npr.org/2023/03/18/1163278082/car-prices-used-cars-electric-vehicles-pandemic

 

The goalposts have never moved.

The OP tried to claim that car prices were high because the economy was awesome, that was wrong AF and I said as much.

Then you chimed in said that it was one indicator of a strong economy and that was wrong AF also. 

Prices are high because of a supply issue, period. 

It's irrelevant to people like you who don't inherently understand economics.

Why would NYLefty care how many cars sold in 2012 or 2016? All he wants is a shiny new car, and the number of sales in the past are absolutely meaningless at that point. So when he found out prices were up, his own biases made him jump to the conclusion that it was because of Biden's awesomeness. He never spent ten seconds trying to find out the real reason or he'd have found out very quickly.

You're in the same boat.

Anyone with a fundamental understanding of economics would instantly know that something unusual was happening when they saw that sales were down by millions of units and yet prices experienced a historic increase. 

I can't even explain it to you. You think that all of these things are irrelevant. That's weird. 

I dont play the disingenuous with internet trolls. Been around the block too many times. Have been lured into games like this too many times and you are not worth the energy. I posted about car sales and you respond with a lengthy diatribe about prices. That sets the tone and gives you away.. This tells me from the beginning that you can't stay on topic. It is fascinating watching you dodge. 

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26 minutes ago, impartialobserver said:

I dont play the disingenuous with internet trolls. Been around the block too many times. Have been lured into games like this too many times and you are not worth the energy. I posted about car sales and you respond with a lengthy diatribe about prices.

Wrong.

This thread is about prices.

The OP didn't complain about an increasing number of car sales. And why would he? Because he hates the economy? 

The fact that you tried to back his claim by posting about the current number of car sales in 2022 with no historical context whatsoever is just more proof that you are an economic illiterate. 

That number was actually 4 million lower than the last 5 pre-pandemic years. It was even a million lower than 2021, and 2021 was a really slow year. And yeah, the number of vehicle sales in previous years is absolutely relevant. So is the sale price from those years.

What NYLefty is experiencing right now is the exact same thing that everyone who wanted to buy a new car since late 2020 was experiencing. It has nothing to do with Biden. 

Quote

That sets the tone and gives you away.. This tells me from the beginning that you can't stay on topic. It is fascinating watching you dodge. 

?

Go look at my first post, and every subsequent post. In each one I explained in no uncertain terms that vehicle prices were up because of a supply shortage and nothing else.

I even offered you the opportunity to "prove me wrong" if you could muster a reasonable argument why anything else aside from a shortage of new vehicles was even 1% responsible for the price hike and you couldn't even take me up on that. 

As it stands right now, I'm 100% correct in blaming the price increase on a supply issue and you are stuck in denial mode, continually saying "the number of vehicle sales in other years is irrelevant" ?

The only dodge here is you trying to pretend that you didn't act like prices were up because of Biden's wonderful economy. And FYI, posting the number of sales in 2022 and acting like it was a good thing counts as support of the OP's claim about high prices. The fact that the number of sales was actually very low compared to every other year since 2012 just shows that you don't know the first thing about economics. Saying "the number of vehicle sales in other years is irrelevant" just makes it worse. 

If I was you I'd just take the zero and drop the subject. You're in way over your head and your insults make no sense. If a barrage of stats is a diatribe in your books, I guess I'm guilty by your inverted standards.  

Edited by WestCanMan
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2 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Go look at my first post, and every subsequent post. In each one I explained in no uncertain terms that vehicle prices were up because of a supply shortage and nothing else.

Textbook internet troll:

person A: the chicken crossed the road

WCM: but the road was built by cheap labor
Any rational person: Hmmm... what does the first sentence and second have to do with one another.. .?
WCM: You are just too stupid to understand.

 

In short, we are not talking about the same thing and because you are confrontational/insecure.. you are attempting to force me to your narrative. It really gets you worked up that I will not play your game. 

Edited by impartialobserver
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11 hours ago, impartialobserver said:

Textbook internet troll:

Says something biased and stupid, like "13M cars sold this year, that's a good indictor of the strength of the economy, but it's just one of many", while not knowing that 13M was actually the worst number in the past decade, millions below the average.

After being informed of his error, he then pretends that the number of cars sold in past years is irrelevant. "13M was awesome and I'm stickin' to it! Nyah!"

Then proceeds to insult someone who just brings all the relevant facts to the table. 

 

Sorry kid, this was an adult discussion about the economy and little trolls who feel like facts and stats are irrelevant just don't fit in. 

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