British Cycling bars transgender women from competing in female category

[myata]

Guardian

Just because we're in a purportedly free country an opinion like this can be expressed. There's no prejudice against trans people. One may not even know or want to know these details. One is free to identify themselves to a specific gender. One has the right to be safe and to express their identification free of fear, harassment and such. This is clear.

One can ask their friends and people they know to identify them as they wish. This is a request, not a right or privilege. One cannot force their view of the world upon others. There's no obligation of the others to accept another individual's view of the world. None. Does not exist. Period. A has the right to say: "xyw". This is not the same as making everybody around say it. No, not the same thing. Why couldn't you figure it out?

Specifically it cannot exist where it contradicts objective facts of reality, as in the example. The fact of individual identification does not change physical reality.

Maybe this is where the line lies. One can feel and identify. One has the right to be safe. One can ask. One cannot force others to accept their views.

As happened so many times in the history of humankind, we just cannot stop. The fight for the right of recognition and safety has come over the top and became the drive to force one particular view on the others. The "right" view, to the exclusion, and suppression of all other views, shutting down opinions and debate. At this point it's left the territory of the right, the oppressed becoming the oppressors. And entrenched, lazy and incompetent bloated governments looking for causes celebre to hide their uselessness and incompetence.

 

[CdnFox]

Wow    never thought i'd see THAT day any time soon.

[Moonbox]

This is one of those areas where PC culture definitely DOES get really silly, and I think it's right that trans women shouldn't be allowed to compete with other women.  There has to be some line, somewhere, where the desires and feelings of a microscopic portion of the population doesn't get to impose on everyone else.  

 

[CdnFox]

getting rid of the 'mens' catagory and changing it to 'trans includisive all gender' category is a brilliant solution. Women who trans'd into men can still compete, same the other way around, and men can still compete and on one has an unfair advantage.

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

This is one of those areas where PC culture definitely DOES get really silly, and I think it's right that trans women shouldn't be allowed to compete with other women.  There has to be some line, somewhere, where the desires and feelings of a microscopic portion of the population doesn't get to impose on everyone else.  

 

Trans women should be allowed to compete with other women in some settings, and not in others.

More importantly, it's a discussion that seems to happen without people gnashing their teeth or screaming so much, so it's possible to have such discussions.

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, Contrarian said:

I am going to propose a solution that might be laughable to the everyday political man and woman out there, however here it is: 

4 divisions of sports: 

1. men's

2. women's

3. trans men's

4. trans women's. 

Then, if people care about their identity as trans, do the work there and slowly bring forward your ideas, if one drives a fast train into society, then the reaction comes, is just the reality. 

There are not enough people in 3 and 4, maybe.

My suggestion, create an "open" category. 

Wide open

[OftenWrong]

23 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

What I see as the flaw in that is 4 will protest against 3 and will not agree. There will be another division as I think the point will be brought up that it will not be fair for trans women to compete against trans men. 

Yeah that makes sense. I wonder, given the relatively low percentage of people in society who are trans, then another factor for how many of them are serious athletes, we must be talking about a very small group of people here.

There may not be a solution. You can't have it all in this life.

[Legato]

3 hours ago, CdnFox said:

getting rid of the 'mens' catagory and changing it to 'trans includisive all gender' category is a brilliant solution. Women who trans'd into men can still compete, same the other way around, and men can still compete and on one has an unfair advantage.

Not sure if that would work...after all, those 3TG's would make a right pair if ever I saw one.

[WestCanMan]

That's probably the one sport where you can't just tuck your junk in anyways. If you did you'd end up riding 50 miles on top of it. Then it would be gone... Problem solved!

[Moonbox]

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Trans women should be allowed to compete with other women in some settings, and not in others.

Maybe, but I suspect the criteria and how this is determined is not going to be something that anyone will be done objectively without a lot of tears and yelling.  

[myata]

Reasonable accommodation is not tantamount to the right or privilege to impose one's views on everybody. Supreme Court of Canada doesn't seem to get it, any longer. What's next? Where to?

[myata]

9 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

without people gnashing their teeth or screaming so much,

You can point an example, in the context of this discussion so much Michael? Or just using imagination, feeling and believing? The only party that was doing anything related to your formulation above was the one that wasn't allowed to compete I won't quote but you can find easily in the link posted.

So, one recognizes your right to be and identify; you can come out any time you like and it has to be safe for you excluding any form of harassment. You can ask people you know or anybody to identify you as you chose. What you cannot do is to impose your decision on them. No, except in totalitarian societies one never had such privilege, at no time and nowhere.

So where did you see "screaming and gnashing", in that? And what more would you like and ask for? Just curious.

[SpankyMcFarland]

14 hours ago, Contrarian said:

I am going to propose a solution that might be laughable to the everyday political man and woman out there, however here it is: 

4 divisions of sports: 

1. men's

2. women's

3. trans men's

4. trans women's. 

Then, if people care about their identity as trans, do the work there and slowly bring forward your ideas, if one drives a fast train into society, then the reaction comes, is just the reality. 

Hey, I was going to say that. 

[Perspektiv]

15 hours ago, Contrarian said:

I am going to propose a solution that might be laughable to the everyday political man and woman out there, however here it is: 

4 divisions of sports: 

1. men's

2. women's

3. trans men's

4. trans women's. 

Then, if people care about their identity as trans, do the work there and slowly bring forward your ideas, if one drives a fast train into society, then the reaction comes, is just the reality. 

I would make the third category non binary and class by weight. If they genuinely don't believe that gender exists, they should be able to compete against one another.

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Maybe, but I suspect the criteria and how this is determined is not going to be something that anyone will be done objectively without a lot of tears and yelling.  

Maybe not, but we're moving forward in time.

People on here claim that you can't suggest rules around trans women competing in sports, or your life will be ruined by some imaginary mob who controls the world.

 

They're wrong, and they know it.

[Perspektiv]

5 hours ago, myata said:

Reasonable accommodation is not tantamount to the right or privilege to impose one's views on everybody. Supreme Court of Canada doesn't seem to get it, any longer. What's next? Where to?

Canada doesn't have b***s. I mean, you should be able to express yourself and your identity, but by no means should we be forced to relinquish ours to make you comfortable. 

When I ask for "strong written and spoken English" on a job offer, this isn't discrimination. Our main spoken languages are English, and French.

I see it as no different with trans women seeking to compete with biological women. 

Calling me Cisgendered to make you comfortable is just not something I am obligated to do. I am male. Period.

I've been called the N word, had my face spat in by a racist, and so many other things I have experienced by my skin color. I am truly sorry I am low on sympathy for those who suffer from hurt feelings.

Its called competition for a reason. Where one naturally holds an unreasonable advantage, this should be banned. 

Lia Thomas couldn't even rank 400 in men's swimming. She is shattering records 2 years into girlhood as a woman and there isn't anything unfair?

"Yeah, well women can be tall too. Will you ban that?!"

Sure, if they also have a d*** and two b***s.

 

[myata]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

can't suggest rules around trans women competing in sports

And one more time, eh: individual identification of a gender doesn't instantly change the physical reality; the first and important physical reality check. Works wonders except in the "we think so you are" world. Then, it's simple: B has identified as and come out, kudos. But the world hasn't changed around B, only B themselves! That's two, remember. B wants to begin using bathrooms they should find out how the others would feel about, accommodation is not an unconditional privilege, that's three. B wants to compete in female sports would it be fair, based on the objective physical reality of the world, not some ideal model somewhere up in some exalted minds? What in that isn't clear or can be wrong? If you identify yourself as a top level CEO can you demand a matching salary from everybody around?

And of course a real glaring conundrum: since when, what time it is the matter of the government to advance the rights, as opposed to observe and respect them, and run public matters diligently and effectively to the satisfaction of the citizens? Who changed the definitions, when and how?

[Perspektiv]

22 minutes ago, myata said:

doesn't instantly change the physical reality

Common sense is like a racial slur to people who can't differentiate between it, logic and histrionic meltdowns based on how one feels inside. 

Well, inside, I feel like am a billionaire. Reality is if I bought a Bentley, that I would likely need to live inside of it. 

 

 

[myata]

42 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Common sense is like a racial slur to people who can't differentiate between it, logic and histrionic meltdowns based on how one feels inside.

The first facet of this issue, to relegate the reality of the things, physical and objective to some kind of a vague and conditional afterthought of the presumed ideal happens all the time and happened so many times. Isn't it funny though how enthusiastically and with what ease the governments jumped on the bandwagon of promoting and advancing diverse rights (as they pick and choose) that shouldn't be, in a normal democratic society, any of their business? Why would it be, out of innocent and selfless goodness governments are famous for or ... ? Who can try to guess?

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

She is shattering records 2 years into girlhood as a woman and there isn't anything unfair?

You have openly said you won't take actions or accept small sacrifices to help the environment, and you're concerned about this issue?

[I am Groot]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Maybe not, but we're moving forward in time.

People on here claim that you can't suggest rules around trans women competing in sports, or your life will be ruined by some imaginary mob who controls the world.

 

They're wrong, and they know it.

LOL!  Here's the guy who had a fulminating fit because I said the same thing to him in an offhand comment and repeatedly demanded apologies, then put me on ignore when I refused casually tossing the same suggestion out! Hypocrisy much, Mikey?

19 hours ago, myata said:

Guardian

Just because we're in a purportedly free country an opinion like this can be expressed. There's no prejudice against trans people. 

But they shouldn't be allowed to compete in womens sports. And the world outside the sanctimonious countries like Canada has already begun to pull back from that idea.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/athletics/65051900

[Moonbox]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

People on here claim that you can't suggest rules around trans women competing in sports, or your life will be ruined by some imaginary mob who controls the world.

Fair enough but that does go both ways.  Merely suggesting restrictions can incite disgust and judgement - not so much here but in the greater outside orld.  

[Michael Hardner]

5 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Fair enough but that does go both ways.  Merely suggesting restrictions can incite disgust and judgement - not so much here but in the greater outside orld.  

It indeed can, they usually the harshest comments I made by people who ostensibly don't care what others think.. or so they say anyway.

 

[myata]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Merely suggesting restrictions can incite disgust and judgement

No restrictions needed  though if one remembers that the physical world does not change. Self-identification does not change physical reality around the individual. As soon as this little nuance is understood and accepted, most or all issues almost magically go away. Security and reasonable accommodation are the important ones. Shouldn't be any problem with that.

[Moonbox]

I think that’s a good point about reasonable accommodation.  We can and should aim to make reasonable accommodations for people.  It’s when they stop being reasonable and accommodating them overrides common sense and becomes onerous that it’s a problem.