Why Canada Sucks Now

[Zeitgeist]

Perhaps Canada is a failed experiment that’s now committing assisted suicide.

The big mistake was failing to see that the country must be more important than the identity of any one group. The PM has emphasized Quebec’s or First Nations or “racialized” identities over the Canadian identity. The American Melting Pot is a better model, and now we’re watching Canada get cut down to placate identity groups. I didn’t imagine Canada would fall this way, but when governments sell out the country to score points with some groups and say that Canada is bad because it wasn’t perfect by today’s standards, we know we’re in trouble as a country.

Canada was more generous, more harmonious, and more understanding of less dominant groups than just about any other country since its beginnings, but you would never know it.  Canada, a country without slavery since its official beginning, has been redefined as a racist genocidal state.  The Northwest Coast Indigenous kept slaves before the Europeans arrived and the Chinese oppressed their own citizens for thousands of years.  It doesn’t matter.  Canadians have been taught recently that their country is bad and now they believe it, so the only value there is now in being here is to make money and give it to your own identity group.  

Edited May 28, 2023 by Zeitgeist

[CdnFox]

36 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Perhaps Canada is a failed experiment that’s now committing assisted suicide.

Meh.  I don't think so. I think that every country goes through these sorts of 'identity crisis' times.  Don't get me wrong, i think that it will change and not be the same, and i think that it'll take time to straighten out and fly right - but look at the us.  They had the 60's and 70's where there was a very significant "rebellion" and a move away from patriotism and traditional values and there was a lot of disruption and discord.  People thought then that it might be the 'end of america'.  But - it did get better.

We'll see.  I think we'll be a mess for the next 20 years or so, and it's possible that there will be an east-west split eventually. But i suspect it'll keep chugging along.

40 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada was more generous, more harmonious, and more understanding of less dominant groups than just about any other country since its beginnings, but you would never know it.

Yeah.  We're probably done with that now.

[I am Groot]

15 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Perhaps Canada is a failed experiment that’s now committing assisted suicide.

The big mistake was failing to see that the country must be more important than the identity of any one group. The PM has emphasized Quebec’s or First Nations or “racialized” identities over the Canadian identity. The American Melting Pot is a better model, and now we’re watching Canada get cut down to placate identity groups. I didn’t imagine Canada would fall this way, but when governments sell out the country to score points with some groups and say that Canada is bad because it wasn’t perfect by today’s standards, we know we’re in trouble as a country.

Canada was more generous, more harmonious, and more understanding of less dominant groups than just about any other country since its beginnings, but you would never know it.  Canada, a country without slavery since its official beginning, has been redefined as a racist genocidal state.  The Northwest Coast Indigenous kept slaves before the Europeans arrived and the Chinese oppressed their own citizens for thousands of years.  It doesn’t matter.  Canadians have been taught recently that their country is bad and now they believe it, so the only value there is now in being here is to make money and give it to your own identity group.  

The problem is that progressives, while a minority, congregate in the arts, entertainment, and media, as well as academia. This has allowed them to slowly indoctrinate people, starting in university (and now working their way down into K-12 schools) and through a distorted media lens. And since none of them have more than a few brain cells, no vision or ideas, they take all their cues from the United States. Whatever is the latest political/social fad in the US becomes the same here. And being emotionally immature they seize upon every new fad as of critical importance to the universe and any disagreement as blasphemy in need of punishment.

So our history, as benign as it was, is to be singled out as the most horrifically evil in the world and our ancestors must be renounced and condemned for everything they've done which, while it was pretty common in their day, is blasphemy in ours. Egypt can hold grand celebrations of its conquering, slave-taking ancestors but Canada must tear down statues of ours because, well, they made some natives go to school. Also, they came here and took over without permission. Thus the entire country is to be thought of as illegitimate. and continually denounced.

Do I need to point out that virtually none of these people could survive in their present occupations without government assistance? That their talents, if I can use that term, would not command sufficient approval or interest among ordinary people for them to quit their day jobs at Starbucks?

Edited May 28, 2023 by I am Groot

[Tony Hladun]

On 5/24/2023 at 9:25 AM, TreeBeard said:

Sounds like a conspiracy theory.  

It's been a few days and I've given this some thought.  To be clear, I believe in inequality.  here's why I do.

As I said, if everyone is equal then everyone is poor.  What happens then, and communist countries have shown this over and over again, is corruption takes over.  There is no market discipline...no rules to the game.  In the end the poor just get more poor because no one has the incentive to create wealth because it must be just stolen.  Venezuela has oil riches greater than Canada and just look at what socialism (equality) has done to them.   

 With inequality, a few people/companies create wealth.  Poor people who work hard succeed and gain wealth as well.  The leader of Singapore said they have two resources, people and hard work, and with that they have become successful.  So making Alberta poor with Equalization will not make Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes rich...we will all just be poor.

I have a saying that goes; if you want people to have nothing then you give them everything and if you want them to have everything then you give them nothing.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Tony Hladun

[TreeBeard]

10 hours ago, Tony Hladun said:

So making Alberta poor with Equalization will not make Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes rich...we will all just be poor.

This is a strawman.  No one says “make Alberta poor”.  Clearly, Alberta hasn’t become poor despite equalization.  

[CdnFox]

12 hours ago, Tony Hladun said:

It's been a few days and I've given this some thought.  To be clear, I believe in inequality.  here's why I do.

As I said, if everyone is equal then everyone is poor.  What happens then, and communist countries have shown this over and over again, is corruption takes over.  There is no market discipline...no rules to the game.  In the end the poor just get more poor because no one has the incentive to create wealth because it must be just stolen.  Venezuela has oil riches greater than Canada and just look at what socialism (equality) has done to them.   

 With inequality, a few people/companies create wealth.  Poor people who work hard succeed and gain wealth as well.  The leader of Singapore said they have two resources, people and hard work, and with that they have become successful.  So making Alberta poor with Equalization will not make Ontario, Quebec and the Maritimes rich...we will all just be poor.

I have a saying that goes; if you want people to have nothing then you give them everything and if you want them to have everything then you give them nothing.

Loathe as i am to even approach agreeing with treebeard, the whole equalization thing is a little misunderstood.

Alberta doesn't actually pay any more to equalization than anyone else does.  I know the way we talk about it sometimes makes it feel like some how Alberta cuts a cheque to the feds for equalization, but that doesn't happen. Equalization is paid for from income tax. Everyone everywhere pays the same federal income tax.  A guy making 70,000 in alberta pays the same income tax as a guy living in quebec earning 70,000 all else being the same.

I'm not a big fan of equalization, i think if we have it at all it should be radically simplified and scaled back, i think in some respects we already do have it - that was the WHOLE POINT to the feds paying for half of the medical costs for the provinces tho they've cut that back but kept the money.

But - it's not impoverishing albertans more than anyone else.  It just feels that way because for a  while there wages were higher in alberta on average so on average they pay more taxes.

[Tony Hladun]

The problem is including resource revenues in Equalization calculations.  Resources belong to AB (and BC, SK, NL) and so to include them as Equalization capacity (a totally arbitrary calculation), even at the 50% level, is punitive.  Yes the personal tax structure at the federal level is the same, but that's not the point.  And now with the Feds taking the money they want AB to kill its main industry as well.  An analogy of what the draining payments of Equalization are like would be to have ON add the capital gains in Toronto property to their calculation and then see what happens.  The resource provinces are being treated as colonies and their wealth is being stripped by the central Canada power axis.

[CdnFox]

58 minutes ago, Tony Hladun said:

The problem is including resource revenues in Equalization calculations.  Resources belong to AB (and BC, SK, NL) and so to include them as Equalization capacity (a totally arbitrary calculation), even at the 50% level, is punitive. 

It's pretty hard to defend that given the supposed premise of 'equalization'.  I mean, the point of it literally is to level the playing field by taking a little from provinces that are blessed with good fortune and topping up provinces who don't have those natural advantages so that everyone has a similar level of gov't services.

So resource revenue is PRECISELY that kind of natural advantage.

My problem is inconsistency. We DO look at alberta's oil.  We DO look at bc's lumber (which was the 'oil' of its day). But - we refuse to consider Quebec's hydro - which they sell to the states at a profit and which is a huge natural advantage for them.  And that's not fair.

58 minutes ago, Tony Hladun said:

Yes the personal tax structure at the federal level is the same, but that's not the point. 

It's entirely the point. Alberta doesn't pay any more than anyone else - no 'impoverishing' is going on. Other than we all pay more tax than we should.

58 minutes ago, Tony Hladun said:

And now with the Feds taking the money they want AB to kill its main industry as well.  An analogy of what the draining payments of Equalization are like would be to have ON add the capital gains in Toronto property to their calculation and then see what happens. 

For many decades Ontario was excluded entirely from equalization payments even when it qualified. THey didn't take it even when the formula said they were eligible.  So if you're going to use THAT comparison, i think you're going to find Ontario actually comes out worse than Alberta - they should have gotten it but didn't no matter HOW you calculate the formula.

58 minutes ago, Tony Hladun said:

The resource provinces are being treated as colonies and their wealth is being stripped by the central Canada power axis.

Not by equalization it's not.

I'm no fan at all of equalization. I question if it has ANY value and if it does the way it's done is NOT fair or reasonable.

But the largest contributor to "equalization'  by a landslide is ontario. The second biggest is quebec i believe.

And for ages ontario was excluded from even qualifying under any circumstances.

Now - you want to talk about the western provinces like colonies, lets talk NEP. Lets talk  repression of SEVERAL industries including oil and aeronautics and pharmaceutical to protect industries in the east, etc etc etc.

But equalization? No - that's a kind of myth that alberta politicians tell albertans exists to get them angry.  But that really isn't quite what the story is.

[Nefarious Banana]

Does Quebec claim to be a 'have-not' province because they haven't developed much of their abundant?  hydro-electric, mining, etc. resources ?

[Tony Hladun]

CdnFox, before you tell us too much on how Ontario has suffered remember that Ottawa played a huge role in building the nuclear reactors in Ontario that now allow you to crow about low carbon.  Read page 14 of this document https://canteach.candu.org/Content Library/19930101.pdf.

Now Ottawa is pouring billions of dollars into Ontario for EV's.  The chances of Ontario competing in the global EV market is just a hope and a dream.  But lets say everyone in Ontario gets a free EV, where will the electricity you need come from?  Will Ottawa build you more nuclear plants?

[CdnFox]

41 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Does Quebec claim to be a 'have-not' province because they haven't developed much of their abundant?  hydro-electric, mining, etc. resources ?

No - they developed it, their hydro  (and neufoundland's which they have a highly corrupt deal to abscond with)  are not calculated in equalization. If they were quebec probably wouldn't be a have not province.

that's what's unfair.  I mean if you said alberta didn't have to calculate it's oil then it would be a have not too - if you exclude the resources then SURE quebec is a have not.  But they're allowed to develop them but not include them in the calculation.

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, Tony Hladun said:

CdnFox, before you tell us too much on how Ontario has suffered remember that Ottawa played a huge role in building the nuclear reactors in Ontario that now allow you to crow about low carbon.

Allow "ME' to crow?  Are you being a dishonest poster? i've never said a thing about Ontario;s carbon emissions. Did you just realize you were wrong here and you're trying to change the channel? What does that have to do with equalization?

12 minutes ago, Tony Hladun said:

 

Now Ottawa is pouring billions of dollars into Ontario for EV's.

Batteries.  But again - nothing to do with equalization.

12 minutes ago, Tony Hladun said:

  The chances of Ontario competing in the global EV market is just a hope and a dream.  But lets say everyone in Ontario gets a free EV, where will the electricity you need come from?  Will Ottawa build you more nuclear plants?

Again with the 'you'. So your only defense here is to make it personal and try to be insulting.  I live in british columbia !diot.

So - lets get to brass tacks.  You probably did a bit of google searching and realized i was entirely right.  And that you cannot possibly defend your position on equalization as you stated it.

RATHER than make peace with that you've decided to try to change the discussion entirely AND because you're mad at me for pointing out the truth you're going to try to make this about me.

I'm sure that tactic would work very well in most kndergarten classes. You'll have to step it up here tho.

Equalization isn't impoverishing Alberta and Alberta isn't even the biggest contributor to it at all.

And Eff you for making me agree with treebeard.

Edited May 31, 2023 by CdnFox

[TreeBeard]

3 hours ago, Tony Hladun said:

Resources belong to AB (and BC, SK, NL)

They belong to all Canadians.  

[Tony Hladun]

1 hour ago, TreeBeard said:

They belong to all Canadians.  

No, https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/natural-resources-transfer-acts-1930

[Tony Hladun]

CdnFox, you raised the point on how magnamus Ontario was so I pointed out that Ontario has been in the trough for a long time.  As I mentioned above the resources do belong to AB.  At this point rave on, I'm done.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, Tony Hladun said:

CdnFox, you raised the point on how magnamus Ontario was so I pointed out that Ontario has been in the trough for a long time.  As I mentioned above the resources do belong to AB.  At this point rave on, I'm done.

I did not raise the point of how magnanimous Ontario is. THey aren't and i wouldn't.  I raised the legitimate point that they pay more money than alberta into equalization and yet willfully agreed not to take any payments even if they qualified for them for decades. So strictly looking at the equalization program they'd have more right to complain than alberta.

[TreeBeard]

3 hours ago, Tony Hladun said:

No, https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/natural-resources-transfer-acts-1930

The provinces have jurisdiction to manage them.  They still belong to all Canadians.