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Mass absences break out at London schools as Pride flag flies


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20 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

What are the odds the same people adamant about flying Pride flags would be willing to fly a conservative flag and tolerate, much less respect conservative values and moral codes?

That's a silly false-equivalence, requiring you to believe that being gay or bi or whatever is an ideological stance.  

 

 

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1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

You cannot say whether the parents were politically left or right. That is an assumption made through your politically driven mindset.

You are saying left wing liberals are pro gay? Again, an assumption. People are people and their personal convictions are not driven by political leanings, they are driven by their own personal perceptions and feelings.

As for police being banned form schools, that is also a social/cultural issue. The vocal folks feel the police are vindictive and targeting certain social sectors and think their kids are afraid.

 

I can, and did.  I stand by my assessment.  Conservative religious types are opposed to LBGBT issues being discussed in their children's schools.  Left wing types not so much.  If you think they are all the same, then I just disagree with you.

Obviously I can't speak to anything other than generalities, and if you personally know of anyone on the right who thinks LBGBT issues being discussed in their children's schools is just fine I have no answer to that.  It won't change my mind though.

Edited by bcsapper
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20 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

I said conservative not Conservative Any sort of symbol or belief that evokes a conservative view or mindset or historical occasion. Do you think these schools would celebrate Sir John A MacDonald, for example? Would they fly the flag under which Canadians fought in the first and second world wars on remembrance day? Would they celebrate Canada's historical ties with the British or the Royal family? Would they tolerate and teach tolerance for conservative beliefs in either morality or traditions?

You mean like a poppy on Remembrance Day ?   Or the Union Jack ?  Yes.

Yes, I think they would celebrate historical figures.

Teach tolerance for conservative beliefs ?  I think further than that - they TEACH conservative values in school.

 

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  You tell me "everyone" is being loved, and accuse me of being disingenuous ?
2.  The 'religious rights' thing is a red herring.  We have separated religion from education wherever possible, and this is another tenet of that project.  "Affirming" is a dodgy word.  Do I 'affirm' hetersexuality by showing a picture of Mr. and Mrs. Claus ?  
3. Flying the Pride Flag says nothing about what your thoughts are regarding trans women in sports or public spaces.
4. Ideology is in everything.  If you don't agree then you are part of the dominant ideology.

You can’t separate people’s religious beliefs from people.  Don’t be ridiculous.

If you don’t want crucifixes or stars of David symbols in our education system, don’t impose pride flags.  They’re a violation of many people’s religious beliefs.

 The Catholic system has constitutional protections for religious education.

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22 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

  That only happens in China. Right? Right? 

   Brands like Disney push their agenda in the west, but you won't see any of it in countries where it will hurt their bottom line. 

    I just see the thought police. Control their mind, you control their bodies.  

    When I see people push flags, but call for the death and doxxing for people they disagree with, it makes it that much harder to believe these people are genuinely seeking inclusion.

See what I mean ?  Seems so reasonable until you parse out the things he says in his posts.

"When I see people... call for death.." - what in blazes does that have to do with the Pride flag at a school.

This is a fifth-level troll attempt.

Or a great AI.

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25 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

That's a silly false-equivalence, requiring you to believe that being gay or bi or whatever is an ideological stance.  

 

 

What is the point of flying a flag that symbolizes certain sexual lifestyles and identities?  Can we have flags for all other causes and identities in that case?   Perhaps the Ukrainians won’t like the Russian flag.  Maybe the China flag won’t resonate well with everyone.  

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11 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

What is the point of flying a flag that symbolizes certain sexual lifestyles and identities?  

It symbolizes acceptance for those identities, which unfortunately is still not something that they can take for granted.  

11 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Perhaps the Ukrainians won’t like the Russian flag.  Maybe the China flag won’t resonate well with everyone.  

It would be better to think about this along the lines of woman's suffrage and equal rights.  

For the record, I do wholeheartedly disagree with the idea of say, trans female athletes competing in female sports, but that's relatively minor side show of the whole LGBTQ+ debate.  

 

Edited by Moonbox
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2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

That's their problem, really.  If you abstract the problem and take out the specifics of which moral code, which symbol, which group we're accommodating and which we're expecting to be inclusive then you would come up with something like a principle.

Here's one try:

Any public school necessarily holds community 'values' and those attending the school are expected to understand that these values are a foundation to what is being taught.

So if you are a Christian who thinks Hallowe'en is evil - you might want to keep your kid home in October.
IF you are a Muslim who opposes Music, you will have to fill out late slips every day so that you can drop your kid off after the National Anthem.
If you hate a rainbow flag, then you may have to cover your kids' eyes as you march them into the school in the morning.

 

If it was just a flag thing, then sure, cover your kids eyes as you marched them off to school. But it sounds like other more pertinent underlying factors at play with the flag being the last straw. It's unbelievable that one flag would cause all this commotion. Since it involves a well organized mass walkout by elementary school kids the finger gets pointed at the parents telling their kids what to do. Another finger gets pointed at some possible religious leader advising the parents what to do. Of course this is pure conjecture on my part but it's worth considering.

Edited by suds
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1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

I can, and did.  I stand by my assessment.  Conservative religious types are opposed to LBGBT issues being discussed in their children's schools.  Left wing types not so much.  If you think they are all the same, then I just disagree with you.

Obviously I can't speak to anything other than generalities, and if you personally know of anyone on the right who thinks LBGBT issues being discussed in their children's schools is just fine I have no answer to that.  It won't change my mind though.

OK, you are entitled.

I know many people some for and some against. Thing is, we purposely do not discuss politics and I do not analyze my friends so, I cannot answer your question.

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3 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Considered it.  Dismissed it.  No matter how fantastic the idea of the universe existing is, the idea it was created is infinitely more fantastic.

Perhaps you don't realize there are scientists and scholars who don't believe something as incredibly complex as the universe and life could not possible just happen or come into existence from nothing without a Creator.  You have not faced up to that reality.  You have no answer except to dismiss the idea of an intelligent designer Creator.  

It is not rational to think the universe just happened without an outside power who is separate from the universe.

Even mathematician scientists have said the mathematical laws of probability say for life to come into existence by chance is so small there is not enough time in the universe for it to have happened.  But that still doesn't explain the intricate and complex atomic particles, energy, gravity, radiation, etc.  None of that could even exist unless it were created.

So the question is if it was not created by God, where did it all come from.  You have no answer.  You non answer and dismissal of God is what is fantastic. 

Some things like how or where the universe came from simply cannot be answered in any other way.  Scientists simply don't have the answer because there is no other answer than God that makes sense.

Edited by blackbird
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1 hour ago, Legato said:

So who or what created God?

That is a common question.   The answer is God is not a part of the created universe.  He is not a material being.  Holy Scripture says God is a spirit.  Theologians understanding of Holy Scripture say God always existed.  He had no beginning and will have no end.  That is the nature of God.  He is all powerful or omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent.  We have a tendency to think everything had a beginning, but that is only true of the material universe.  God is not a part of that.  He is a spiritual being separate from the material universe.  

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5 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Perhaps you don't realize there are scientists and scholars who don't believe something as incredibly complex as the universe and life could not possible just happen or come into existence from nothing without a Creator.  You have not faced up to that reality.  You have no answer except to dismiss the idea of an intelligent designer Creator.  

I realise it.  I just disagree with them.

 

6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

It is not rational to think the universe just happened without an outside power who is separate from the universe.

It is not rational to imagine something created it.  Far less rational, imho.  You can't see that, obviously, as you are blinded by your upbringing and your faith.

 

19 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Even mathematician scientists have said the mathematical laws of probability say for life to come into existence by chance is so small there is not enough time in the universe for it to have happened.  But that still doesn't explain the intricate and complex atomic particles, energy, gravity, radiation, etc.  None of that could even exist unless it were created.

Did you ask them to comment on the probability of there being a God, combined with the probability that if there was, it would be your God? 

 

21 minutes ago, blackbird said:

So the question is if it was not created by God, where did it all come from.  You have no answer.  That is really fantastic.  

Some things like how or where the universe came from simply cannot be answered any other way.  Scientists simply don't have the answer because there is no other answer than God that makes sense.

You have no answer either.  To say God created it is a cop out, as it is far less likely than it all happening by accident.

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39 minutes ago, herbie said:

Don't wear a poppy because that's discrimination against all the civilians that died in wars.

Poppies signify the ultimate sacrifices for the freedoms we enjoy.

Kind of like someone having a histrionic fit, for getting kicked out of the women's showers, for identifying as a floor tile, but looking like Seth Rogan.

That very freedom, is worthy of wearing that poppy, or even better, your choice in refusing to.

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1 hour ago, suds said:

If it was just a flag thing, then sure, cover your kids eyes as you marched them off to school. But it sounds like other more pertinent underlying factors at play with the flag being the last straw. It's unbelievable that one flag would cause all this commotion. Since it involves a well organized mass walkout by elementary school kids the finger gets pointed at the parents telling their kids what to do. Another finger gets pointed at some possible religious leader advising the parents what to do. Of course this is pure conjecture on my part but it's worth considering.

It's not just a flag thing.  It's a rejection by certain religious people of the notion that a state can teach their children tolerance of a lifestyle that their religion finds abhorrent.  It has happened in the UK, too.  It is happening in the US right now.  I think you are probably right in your conjecture.

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40 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

It's not just a flag thing.  It's a rejection by certain religious people of the notion that a state can teach their children tolerance of a lifestyle that their religion finds abhorrent.  It has happened in the UK, too.  It is happening in the US right now.  I think you are probably right in your conjecture.

And the emergence of a new class of folks who simultaneously decry selfishness while openly saying that they refuse to do anything that they don't feel like doing.

Just thought I'd give some perspektiv.

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5 hours ago, eyeball said:

As I see it the intent of these flags are to inform red-necked arseholes they won't be tolerated.

If they want to stay away, good.

 

It was noted that it was the muslims organizing it.  Are you saying that all muslims are redneck arseholes? You're islamaphobic?

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1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

It is not rational to imagine something created it.  Far less rational, imho.  You can't see that, obviously, as you are blinded by your upbringing and your faith.

The Bible teaches us the reason why people such as yourself don't believe in God is because of what is called the Fall of Man in theology.  When Adam rebelled against God he received a fallen, depraved nature that was passed on to all his descendants which includes you and me and everyone.  Unless a person's eyes are opened by God's unmerited grace, nobody can see the truth, i.e. believe in God and his revelation to man.  Just to make you aware that is the basic reason you do not believe.  It is because of your fallen nature.  It won't change unless you are given grace by God to see the truth.  Why God gives grace to some and not others is a mystery of the ages.  Nobody can earn grace. All I can do is pray that God gives you grace to see the truth that you are a sinful, fallen being, the same as everyone else is and needs God's grace.  Nobody is better or worse than anyone else in that sense.  You may be able to do something though by listening to Bible believers and examining the Bible yourself.  

Edited by blackbird
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6 hours ago, blackbird said:

stop this nonsense and teach students that everyone should be loved and treated with respect.

I went to school in the 70's, and we were all taught that. So this perceived need to make a correction (by whom?) is not necessary imo.

We learned to accept gays. To wit - Gay marriage has been legal in Canada for decades.

But Gays are not Drag Queens, that's where I make a departure. A drag queen is intended to be a spectacle for shock value and entertainment.

If I were queer and wanted to be accepted and taken seriously by my peers, I wouldn't want them to be used by schools to "represent me". 

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18 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

But Gays are not Drag Queens, that's where I make a departure.

Except when they are?  

18 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

A drag queen is intended to be a spectacle for shock value and entertainment.

A lot of the time it's just to amuse one another.  They have fun, so why should any of us care?  

18 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

If I were queer and wanted to be accepted and taken seriously by my peers, I wouldn't want them to be used by schools to "represent me". 

They're not being used to represent anyone but themselves.  They're there to teach inclusion, not to instruct classrooms what the gays look like.  

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