Canada shouldn't deny assisted suicide if social conditions made life intolerable: bioethicists

[Army Guy]

2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Side note - my mom has made it VERY clear that if she's ever mentally damaged or in a coma - or if she ever comes to us and says 'it's time' that we are to do what we need to in order help her obain such relief medically without putting up resistance other than a few 'are you sure's'.    In short, to help her die when she wants to, and i absolutely would do that without a seconds hesitation if and when the time comes.  In fairness some days she makes that decision easier than others   But still -  i would do it and tho it may break my hard to see her go i'd consider it an act of love in the circumstances.  I'd want the same for me in similar situations.

She made that choice when she was of sound mind...one that someone with a mental health issue can not.. which was my main point.

Not sure if I could that promise if I was in your shoes. unless she was in a lot of pain...

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

She made that choice when she was of sound mind...one that someone with a mental health issue can not.. which was my main point.

Well - the mental health aspect does create some problems. In some ways its exactly when some people would like to go. ON the other hand it's when people are most likely to make bad decisions.

12 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Not sure if I could that promise if I was in your shoes. unless she was in a lot of pain...

Like i said, it's an act of love in my world.  Don't get me wrong - it would be horrid and i'd need to take some time away from work and people to get over it, but that would not hold me back. I know her and i know she absolutely means it.

[TreeBeard]

42 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

She made that choice when she was of sound mind.

Which is still a requirement.  Someone who can’t consent to assisted death still won’t be able to. 

[CdnFox]

27 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Which is still a requirement.  Someone who can’t consent to assisted death still won’t be able to. 

That can be hard to say tho - if someone has a mental health issue can we be sure they're really of 'sound mind'?

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I have no right, I think most lives are worth the extra effort, I thought there was a lawful order that stated we must protect those incapable of making a good choice, hence why do we have the insanity plea for criminals charges if you can't be held responsible for a crime because you lack a basic understanding of right and wrong. Why do we feel the need to think they can make a reasonable choice when it comes to life or death? 

Is there a cut-off, and do we allow those that are handicapped mentally to decide? 

Would you hold the same belief if it was a close family member? 

I'm glad maid was not in play when i was struggling with PTSD, as the only thing I wanted at the time was to end all the pain and nightmares. every day new cures and treatments are coming out, nobody knows what the future holds, once your dead that's it, you're gone forever. I understand if you're in constant physical pain, and are of sound mind... but opening it up to everyone, I don't agree with...

Time and treatment have saved lots of people,  yes it is a rough trip, and after several years of treatment, many have a whole new outlook on life....

It's a commonly asked question, "Would you hold the same belief if it was a close family member? "

Of course I would.  I would do the same as any other person would, which is try to help as much as possible, but in the end, how could I refuse to support them if that was what they wanted?

I never said one had to like it.  I also never said people should not be treated.  I support increased access to treatment.

But it is their choice, not mine, yours or anyone else's, that matters.

 

[blackbird]

7 hours ago, bcsapper said:

But it is their choice, not mine, yours or anyone else's, that matters.

There are a number of problems with that perspective.

People who are in circumstances which motivates them to ask for assisted suicide may be suffering physical pain, but they may be suffering emotional pain more.  They may in a way be crying for help emotionally.  To just hand them a paper and say sign here and you will be given an injection that will end it all is not giving them the kind of help they need.

Here is an article which gives some other perspectives on it:

Know God’s Perspective

The most important perspective on euthanasia is God’s perspective. Each life is of so much value to him that he sent his Son to die in order to redeem all believing sinners.

God hates death. He hates suicide. He hates killing. God declared, “I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse. Therefore choose life” (Deuteronomy 30:19).

Psalm 139:16 reinforces the fact that our lives are in God’s hands: “Your eyes saw my unformed substance; in your book were written, every one of them, the days that were formed for me, when as yet there was none of them.” The beginning and the end of our days are determined by him.

The slow process of dying, of incredible pain, is a horror of this broken life because death is our enemy. Yet, by Jesus’ resurrection, death was defeated for all believers. “For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his” (Romans 6:5).

This is a guarantee available to those who pick up their respective crosses and follow Christ until the very end of this earthly life. Christians do not seek death, they face it. They help each other face it.

Picking up the cross of constant pain is a courageous and faithful choice. The New Living Translation of Romans 14:8 frames Paul’s words beautifully, powerfully, and clearly: “If we live, it’s to honor the Lord. And if we die, it’s to honor the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.”

How Should Christians Respond to Euthanasia? (christianity.com)

There are perspectives in here that I need to learn more about as well.  Nobody has all the answers.

Of course if one is not a believer in Christ yet, then that is the first thing that he needs to deal with through reading the New Testament.

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

There are a number of problems with that perspective.

The only one that comes to mind is that some people don't agree with it.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

God hates death

?

 

[blackbird]

"23  Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24  And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting."  Psalm 139.23 KJV 

[CdnFox]

5 minutes ago, blackbird said:

"23  Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts: 24  And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting."  Psalm 139.23 KJV 

And lead me not into temptation. For i know the way.

[TreeBeard]

3 hours ago, blackbird said:

To just hand them a paper and say sign here and you will be given an injection that will end it all is not giving them the kind of help they need.

This isn’t what happens.  You aren’t  dealing in reality.  

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, TreeBeard said:

This isn’t what happens.  You aren’t  dealing in reality.  

In basic terms yes with some added refinements to try to give the appearance of legitimacy.  "Having a form of godliness but denying the power thereof".

"Let me try to illustrate this from the Bible. Here’s the passage that piles up more designations of Satan than any other passage in the Bible. If I had only one or two verses to put the identity and work of Satan before you, it would be Revelation 12:9–10.

Here it says, “And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent.” And remember what the Bible said in Genesis 3 about him: he’s subtle. He’s subtler than every beast. So it’s his subtlety that’s being focused on here, his serpent-like reality. “And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil [διάβολος: slanderer, liar, cheat] and Satan [adversary], the deceiver of the whole world.”

I don’t think you can say anything more sweeping or more basic than the end of Revelation 12:9: “He is the deceiver of the whole world.” Verse 10: “The accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.”

So at the center of Satan’s purpose is to deceive on earth and to accuse in heaven. If he can deceive you about God and Christ, you will perish. If he can successfully accuse you of unforgiven sin in heaven, you will perish.

Jesus calls him “a murderer from the beginning” (John 8:44). The deception and the accusation and the eternal death that results from unforgiven sin is a way of destroying people and opposing God."

Where Is Satan Most Visibly Active Today? | Desiring God

[blackbird]

It is important to understand how Satan operates in the world.  Deception is his greatest weapon.

"Worldwide Battleground

Josh asks me, “To what extent and by what means specifically does Satan influence the world?” My answer, therefore, is that the extent is worldwide and the means is deception.

“He destroys not mainly by the sword or disease or killing, but mainly by lying.”

We can see this in another text. Here’s Revelation 20:8: “[He] will come out to deceive the nations.” There’s the focus again on his major strategy of destroying the world — deceiving them. But he will be defeated, and he will be thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:8–10).

My basic answer to Josh’s question is that the extent of Satan’s influence is global; it covers all nations. The primary means of his influence is deception. He destroys not mainly by the sword or disease or killing, but mainly by lying. Jesus calls him “the father of lies” (John 8:44). He lies mainly about God, about Jesus, about the gospel, and about sin. Oh, how wonderful it is that he has been dealt a decisive blow!

You can see his deception about the gospel in 2 Corinthians 4:4: “In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.”

Where Is Satan Most Visibly Active Today? | Desiring God

[blackbird]

It is a fact that the federal government has issued guidelines on how to fill out the death certificate for a medically-assisted death and posted it on the federal government website.

In it they describe how the death certificate is to be completed.

The immediate cause listed in line 1A is the toxicity of the drugs administered.

But then they add on another line the "underlying cause" is the disease or condition that initiated the train of morbid events that led to the medically-assisted death.

This appears to be an attempt to justify the administration of the deadly drugs and put the blame on a disease or condition.

Also, in Quebec they may be leaving MAID off the death certificate entirely.

"So just what motivated the people implementing Quebec's law to ask doctors to leave medical aid in dying off the death certificate? I spoke with Dr. Yves Robert, Secretary of the Quebec College of Physicians. The college has been getting doctors there ready to implement the new law. Dr. Robert says lawyers advised the province and the college to leave medical aid in dying off the death certificate to ensure that life insurance benefits are paid out to survivors.  He says the college worries that insurance companies could use the death certificate to deny a claim, refuse to pay beneficiaries, or use the death certificate to delay payment.  He also told me the other reason for leaving it off the death certificate is the very public nature of that particular document.  Anyone can look up a death certificate - including family members and others that the deceased patient may not want to know that they received help to die from a doctor."

MD aid in dying: what to put on the death certificate? | CBC Radio

Of course Satan would not want the administration of deadly drugs to seen as the cause of death.

 

 

 

[TreeBeard]

3 hours ago, blackbird said:

Of course Satan would not want the administration of deadly drugs to seen as the cause of death.

Why not?  I bet he would.  

[Army Guy]

On 5/15/2023 at 1:22 AM, TreeBeard said:

Which is still a requirement.  Someone who can’t consent to assisted death still won’t be able to. 

There are documented cases of people Appling and being granted access to maid, for things like not being able to find a suitable apartment. if that is acceptable then why would anyone be rejected? I guess the standard is pretty low.

It is my understanding that  Parliament just granted access to maid to people with mental health reasons. Today basically if you apply one can be put down, like a rabid dog... 

[Army Guy]

On 5/15/2023 at 12:10 PM, bcsapper said:

It's a commonly asked question, "Would you hold the same belief if it was a close family member? "

Of course I would.  I would do the same as any other person would, which is try to help as much as possible, but in the end, how could I refuse to support them if that was what they wanted?

I never said one had to like it.  I also never said people should not be treated.  I support increased access to treatment.

But it is their choice, not mine, yours or anyone else's, that matters.

 

Many people make bad decisions everyday, this is not something you can take back, or change the outcome. I'm not convinced that the original intention of maid was to give everyone the option of killing themselves. But rather it was for people with severe medical conditions, not becasue your boyfriend left you, or a bad day at the office...

Most of our laws are designed to protect life, becasue life is suppose to be something special...now what we open a 24 hour death clinic walk in and get carried out...it is that easy...fill this form out, lay down on that bed and poof, next...and that is alright...I guess I'm not ready to accept that just yet. And I'm fortunate that someone took the time and effort to change my mind on the subject.

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by Army Guy

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Many people make bad decisions everyday, this is not something you can take back, or change the outcome. I'm not convinced that the original intention of maid was to give everyone the option of killing themselves. But rather it was for people with severe medical conditions, not becasue your boyfriend left you, or a bad day at the office...

Most of our laws are designed to protect life, becasue life is suppose to be something special...now what we open a 24 hour death clinic walk in and get carried out...it is that easy...fill this form out, lay down on that bed and poof, next...and that is alright...I guess I'm not ready to accept that just yet. And I'm fortunate that someone took the time and effort to change my mind on the subject.

 

Everyone already has the option of killing themselves.  MAID just makes it less messy and painful, and more dignified.  It also removes the fear of failure, which can leave a person even more suicidal, but unable to hold the gun or climb the tower.

Life is only special if you think it is special. I don't, particularly.  So many people who would prefer not to die, do so every day.  It just doesn't seem fair to force someone who does want to die to live on.

To my mind, the right to end one's life is as important as any other right a person might have.  MAID just helps when help is needed.  If you don't want to avail yourself of the service, then do not.  But why would you want to stop me from doing so?

[Army Guy]

21 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Everyone already has the option of killing themselves.  MAID just makes it less messy and painful, and more dignified.  It also removes the fear of failure, which can leave a person even more suicidal, but unable to hold the gun or climb the tower.

Life is only special if you think it is special. I don't, particularly.  So many people who would prefer not to die, do so every day.  It just doesn't seem fair to force someone who does want to die to live on.

To my mind, the right to end one's life is as important as any other right a person might have.  MAID just helps when help is needed.  If you don't want to avail yourself of the service, then do not.  But why would you want to stop me from doing so?

Sure they do, but MAID is making it much more convenient, sign a form get an appointment and poof your in a urn sitting on one of your kids mantle...no questions asked...

Most people have a very healthy respect for their life's, and when it is threatened  ... well life is going to take on a whole new meaning... I seen Taliban suicide bombers fear death and the what is going to happen in the unknown that is to come and those guys are much more motivated than you or i to become a martyr, and collect their 72 virgins. 

During Combat i had convince myself not to fear death itself, by telling me i was already dead, it just did not happen yet...and i took way to many chances becasue of it, becasue i did not give a F8ck... but that was a guy with PTSD that drank way to much... Later i learned very quickly that regardless of how shitty your life is it is hard to just pull the plug on it... and not very many people are ready to give it up without a fight...And everyone that does think about it or carry it out has serious mental health issues that need to be addressed ASAP, before getting put on someone s mantle

For me, I think if the soldiers of my time had access to maid the suicide rate would be ten times higher than it was. todays Afghanistan veterans have suffer 3 times the amount of deaths by suicide than actual soldiers killed in that conflict... and i get it to you it is just a bunch of numbers, to me a lot of them i knew personally, developed close friendships with some forged in combat and adversity...they were family... i did not want to see them in a casket...The world is a lesser place without them... these were people i trusted with my life... I think had they given treatment a chance or even gone to treatment most would be still here.. So the answer to your remark is that is me being selfish...

 

 

[CdnFox]

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canada-maid-assisted-suicide-homeless

One third of Canadians fine with prescribing assisted suicide for homelessness

Roughly the same number told a poll they were fine with approving MAID for someone whose only affliction was poverty

[blackbird]

The fact polls show one third of Canadians are fine with giving assisted suicide to the homeless just shows the sad state Canada is in and the lack of education on historic Christian principles and love for thy neighbour.  Giving people MAID is not love for thy neighbour.  It is a rejection of the sanctity of human life and a promotion of the psychology of death.  Once Canadians accept the notion that assisted suicide or legalized suicide is acceptable, then Canada is on a slippery slope.  It is on that slope now.  There is nothing to stop MAID from being expanded for any reason or for no reason.  The very fact that the sanctity of human life is now rejected by our government and a large part of the population just demonstrates the sad state of Canada. 

Don't kid yourself.  There is a connection between this and the murder of ten police officers in the past ten months.  One reason we have lax bail and parole laws is because of the lack of respect for human life.  Such disrespect for life reflects itself in other laws that allow dangerous offenders out on the street to attack innocent citizens.  Why worry about human life or safety if it doesn't have much value.  Individual freedom for offenders is more important and freedom to choose death by MAID is more important than protecting the sanctity of life.

This general lack of respect for human life by Canadians will also reflect itself in the public health care system as well.  It is a natural consequence of the rejection of historic Biblical values.

Edited May 18, 2023 by blackbird

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Sure they do, but MAID is making it much more convenient, sign a form get an appointment and poof your in a urn sitting on one of your kids mantle...no questions asked...

Most people have a very healthy respect for their life's, and when it is threatened  ... well life is going to take on a whole new meaning... I seen Taliban suicide bombers fear death and the what is going to happen in the unknown that is to come and those guys are much more motivated than you or i to become a martyr, and collect their 72 virgins. 

During Combat i had convince myself not to fear death itself, by telling me i was already dead, it just did not happen yet...and i took way to many chances becasue of it, becasue i did not give a F8ck... but that was a guy with PTSD that drank way to much... Later i learned very quickly that regardless of how shitty your life is it is hard to just pull the plug on it... and not very many people are ready to give it up without a fight...And everyone that does think about it or carry it out has serious mental health issues that need to be addressed ASAP, before getting put on someone s mantle

For me, I think if the soldiers of my time had access to maid the suicide rate would be ten times higher than it was. todays Afghanistan veterans have suffer 3 times the amount of deaths by suicide than actual soldiers killed in that conflict... and i get it to you it is just a bunch of numbers, to me a lot of them i knew personally, developed close friendships with some forged in combat and adversity...they were family... i did not want to see them in a casket...The world is a lesser place without them... these were people i trusted with my life... I think had they given treatment a chance or even gone to treatment most would be still here.. So the answer to your remark is that is me being selfish...

 

 

Sure, I believe anyone who denies the rights of others based on their own beliefs is being selfish.  Your views are well came by, but they still do not give you right to tell others when they can die.

As I have said many times, I fully support increasing care for mental health issues, and I believe that any country that does not look after its veterans is craven, but none of that has an impact on the issue generally. 

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The fact polls show one third of Canadians are fine with giving assisted suicide to the homeless just shows the sad state Canada is in and the lack of education on historic Christian principles and love for thy neighbour.  Giving people MAID is not love for thy neighbour.  It is a rejection of the sanctity of human life and a promotion of the psychology of death.  Once Canadians accept the notion that assisted suicide or legalized suicide is acceptable, then Canada is on a slippery slope.  It is on that slope now.  There is nothing to stop MAID from being expanded for any reason or for no reason.  The very fact that the sanctity of human life is now rejected by our government and a large part of the population just demonstrates the sad state of Canada. 

Don't kid yourself.  There is a connection between this and the murder of ten police officers in the past ten months.  One reason we have lax bail and parole laws is because of the lack of respect for human life.  Such disrespect for life reflects itself in other laws that allow dangerous offenders out on the street to attack innocent citizens.  Why worry about human life or safety if it doesn't have much value.  Individual freedom for offenders is more important and freedom to choose death by MAID is more important than protecting the sanctity of life.

Bollocks to Christian principles.

[CdnFox]

Poor judd is dead

A candle lights his head

He's lookin' oh so purty and so nice
He looks like he's asleep
It's a shame that he won't keep
But it's summer and we're running out of ice

(Curly trying to talk judd into killing himself)

There should at least be some law that says that the medical or other agents of the gov't cannot offer it as a suggestion.  Here's the conversation i fear:

Veteran "I'm still struggling, sometimes it's hard to sleep and some days i think it's just too much to get out of bed".

Councillor"  "well - there is a way to end all of that right now. And i think it's time you consider it. You can choose MAID.

Veteran "But i don't want to die!"

Councillor "but you don't want to live in pain either right? Resources from the gov't to help with conditions like yours have been cut back dramatically. Maybe it's time to rest soldier. '

Veteran "I don't know... maybe you're right. Maybe there's no hope for me. Ok.. "

This has apperently already happened. And a number of veterans did choose this way out before some came forward and said they were being counseled to go that route.

I absolutely believe in people's freedom of choice, But in a weak moment, a person of authority can easily manipulate someone who'd at a vunerable time into doing something they would not normally do

[blackbird]

There is no such thing as absolute freedom of choice in a civilized society.  Everything we do effects society and effects others in society.  Even just by example, we are effecting others.  Our words affect others. Our actions speak louder than words and they affect others.

"Biblical principles

God’s word makes clear the sanctity of life:

“You shall not murder” (Exodus 20:13).

“This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live” (Deuteronomy 30:19).

“The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be praised” (Job 1:21).

“Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies” (1 Corinthians 6:19–20).

“No one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church” (Ephesians 5:29).

There are times when believers may have to give their lives in the service of Christ and his kingdom (cf. Mark 8:34–36; John 13:37; Philippians 1:21–22). But voluntary martyrdom is not usually considered suicide.

As we have seen, our postmodern culture claims that absolute truth does not exist (note that this is an absolute truth claim). In a nontheistic or relativistic society, it is difficult to argue for life and against suicide. If we are our own “higher power,” we can do with our lives what we want, or so we’re told.

But if God is the Lord of all that is, he retains ownership over our lives and their days. He is the only one who can determine when our service is done, our intended purpose fulfilled. It is the clear and consistent teaching of Scripture that our lives belong to their Maker and that we are not to end them for our own purposes."

Suicide: What does the Bible say? | Voice (christianpost.com)

We are not just some chemical blob or accident of the cosmos.  We were Created by an intelligent designer which we call God.  The universe and all life forms even down to the single cell, has proven to be extremely complex and required vast amounts of information to be put in it to function.  This could never happen by random chance processes as Darwinism claims.  Many have rejected the Darwinism theory.  Darwinism is a dead end and rejects any real meaning for life.  It rejects the sanctity of human life.  Therefore, whether some like or not, we are all accountable to God who created us and who owns our bodies.