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Canada shouldn't deny assisted suicide if social conditions made life intolerable: bioethicists


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https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/canada-medical-aid-in-dying

Not allowing MAID when circumstances show no short-term chance of improving would only cause further harm, Kayla Wiebe, a PhD candidate in philosophy, and bioethicist Amy Mullin, a professor of philosophy at the University of Toronto, write in the Journal of Medical Ethics.

“To force people who are already in unjust social circumstances to have to wait until those social circumstances improve, or for the possibility of public charity that sometimes but unreliably occurs when particularly distressing cases become public, is unacceptable,” they wrote.

Generally speaking i support people's right to die.

But the problem is that the gov't is starting to use it as a SUBSTITUTE for providing care or addressing issues.

Several veterans for example complained they weren't getting enough support or help for their mental state and they were encouraged to consider MAID.

 

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Yup, in Canada the answer to a failed healthcare system that has given up on curing people is to help vulnerable people kill themselves.   Canada has been creeping towards a totalitarian socialist dystopia for several years.

The population, inured to its degraded rights and cradle to grave social engineering by state-funded media and overbearing cult of personality politicians, accepts this situation without much pushback.

Edited by Zeitgeist
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4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yup, in Canada the answer to a failed healthcare system that has given up on curing people is to help vulnerable people kill themselves.   Canada has been creeping towards a totalitarian socialist dystopia for several years.

The population, inured to its degraded rights and cradle to grave social engineering by state-funded media and overbearing cult of personality politicians, accepts this situation without much pushback.

Well this is my concern. It's as if the gov't has said "now that you have the right to death we don't have to worry about your right to life". Can't find an apartment? Kill yourself. Having mental health issues after serving  your country in a combat role? Kill yourself.  Where does that end?

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The overarching consideration when it comes to using MAID should be the wishes of the person who wants to use it. 

Other than taking a life, I can think of no more egregious denial of basic human rights than forcing someone to live when they do not want to.

Life is not sacred.  Life is an accident that no-one asked for.  Hundreds of thousands of people who do not want to die, do so every day.  There is nothing wrong with providing assistance to someone who does want to die.

It would be nice if the government were able to solve everyone's problems, and I would certainly be open to paying more taxes to help them with that, but it's never going to be the case that they will be able to.

Edited by bcsapper
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55 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

The overarching consideration when it comes to using MAID should be the wishes of the person who wants to use it. 

Other than taking a life, I can think of no more egregious denial of basic human rights than forcing someone to live when they do not want to.

Life is not sacred.  Life is an accident that no-one asked for.  Hundreds of thousands of people who do not want to die, do so every day.  There is nothing wrong with providing assistance to someone who does want to die.

It would be nice if the government were able to solve everyone's problems, and I would certainly be open to paying more taxes to help them with that, but it's never going to be the case that they will be able to.

I have to disagree.  Life is sacred.  The Holy Scriptures make it clear that our bodies belong to God.  He created us and is the only one who has the right to decide when it is time to die.  Therefore mercy killing is contrary to God's commandment "thou shalt not kill". 

"The God of the Bible is a God of life, not death. All forms of euthanasia, also known as mercy killing and assisted suicide, are considered the same as acts of murder in the Bible. Saving someone from pain is not a reason to kill them, nor is it lawful to kill oneself to save oneself from pain. God has made a way for us to overcome sickness, suffering and pain by His death on the cross. He has promised deliverance and healing to all that come to Him in faith. When someone is a party to taking another’s life, it is a direct act of not only murder, but idolatry as well, for they assume the role of God. The Bible says in:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them. Deuteronomy 30:19-20

According to these scriptures, it is God who gives us life and sets the length of our days according to His plans for us, and our response to that plan. When any human being chooses death for another and does not try to preserve life, it is murder. That is also the reason that abortion is murder as well. When a woman chooses to destroy her own child, she chooses death for that baby and is guilty of breaking the sixth commandment found in Exodus 20:13: “Thou shalt not kill.”

What the Bible Says About Euthanasia - Bible Resources

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1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

The overarching consideration when it comes to using MAID should be the wishes of the person who wants to use it. 

Other than taking a life, I can think of no more egregious denial of basic human rights than forcing someone to live when they do not want to.

Life is not sacred.  Life is an accident that no-one asked for.  Hundreds of thousands of people who do not want to die, do so every day.  There is nothing wrong with providing assistance to someone who does want to die.

It would be nice if the government were able to solve everyone's problems, and I would certainly be open to paying more taxes to help them with that, but it's never going to be the case that they will be able to.

I fundamentally agree with what you said. I would put my dog down if it were suffering, i'd want the same level of consideration for my own life.

However, it seems like there's a risk that the gov't or gov't agencies will simply use this as an excuse not to provide what they can.  The people caught encouraging suffering combat veterans to kill themselves because they didn't feel their treatment was going well for example.

I'm not sure how to circle that square.

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1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

Life is not sacred.  Life is an accident that no-one asked for. 

Wow!   Here is an example of how the arch deceiver, Satan himself, has deceived you.  That is exactly the kind of thing he would say.   He opposes God and wants everyone to believe there is no God and that we are all just an accident of the chemicals.  That is total nonsense of course.  The universe and life is extremely complex and required an infinitely intelligent designer-Creator, we call God.  Even the simplest cell is enormously complex with long strings of DNA information in it.  Information like that doesn't just happen by chance.  It required an intelligent designer Creator to produce it and put the information there.   You need re-think all this and read the King James Bible.  You would be far better off to listen to what God says in his written revelation than to listen to anything atheists or agnostics tell you.  They are also deceived by the great deceiver, Satan.

"All true Christians would agree that life is the most precious gift that human beings have been given. Just the chance to be alive on this earth and play a part in the grand scheme of God’s eternal plan is a privilege indeed. The Bible clearly teaches that all life is of infinite value, regardless of its duration or quality, because all human beings are made in the image of God. Yet, despite this, there are times when life becomes so difficult or unbearable that people have tried to deal with these problems without God’s guidance and leading. Seeing a loved one suffer, where a doctor has pronounced there is no hope for them to live, is one of those issues."

Canada has started down this road.  It is a slippery slope.  We are already seeing the consequences as MAID is being expanded to include mentally ill or anyone who might be depressed one day and decide it is time to end their life.  I believe a medical association or medical professional in Quebec is even calling for euthanasia of babies who are born with certain medical issues.  This just demonstrates how slippery a slope this is.  It is becoming more like the Nazis Third Reich or Stalin's Communist Russia.

"We are not to murder each other, or ourselves. God created human beings in His image and each of us carries within us the potential to overcome the evil in this world. If we are Christians, we no longer belong to ourselves, but to God. We are overseers of our bodies and our lives (which belong to Him), and we are responsible to guard that which has been entrusted to us. Euthanasia is a grievous sin that seriously hurts both the heart of God and others as well. Jesus is the great Healer and Miracle Worker and when we take matters into our own hands, we deny the power of God."

What the Bible Says About Euthanasia - Bible Resources

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25 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

I fundamentally agree with what you said. I would put my dog down if it were suffering, i'd want the same level of consideration for my own life.

However, it seems like there's a risk that the gov't or gov't agencies will simply use this as an excuse not to provide what they can.  The people caught encouraging suffering combat veterans to kill themselves because they didn't feel their treatment was going well for example.

I'm not sure how to circle that square.

Me neither.  I don't think people should encourage MAID.  I think everyone should be made aware of the option if it applies to them, and I do believe the option should be available for everyone.  I don't think a qualified medical professional will provide the service for someone with a particularly troublesome case of Athlete's Foot but if they can find a doctor who will then so be it.

I agree it is reprehensible for a government put in place to serve the interests of the population to try and use MAID as a way of avoiding that responsibility, but as you say, it's a difficult problem to solve.  I personally believe a country's responsibility to its military veterans is never ending, and should be met whatever the cost.  But there are more than just those veterans, and the number probably won't go down.  As I said, I would be willing to pay more for social services, but I would want a government in place who would commit to spending the money wisely and not waste it on boondoggles.

Edited by bcsapper
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8 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Wow!   Here is an example of how the arch deceiver, Satan himself, has deceived you.  That is exactly the kind of thing he would say.   He opposes God and wants everyone to believe there is no God and that we are all just an accident of the chemicals.  That is total nonsense of course.  The universe and life is extremely complex and required an infinitely intelligent designer-Creator, we call God.  Even the simplest cell is enormously complex with long strings of DNA information in it.  Information like that doesn't just happen by chance.  It required an intelligent designer Creator to produce it and put the information there.   You need re-think all this and read the King James Bible.  You would be far better off to listen to what God says in his written revelation than to listen to anything atheists or agnostics tell you.  They are also deceived by the great deceiver, Satan.

"All true Christians would agree that life is the most precious gift that human beings have been given. Just the chance to be alive on this earth and play a part in the grand scheme of God’s eternal plan is a privilege indeed. The Bible clearly teaches that all life is of infinite value, regardless of its duration or quality, because all human beings are made in the image of God. Yet, despite this, there are times when life becomes so difficult or unbearable that people have tried to deal with these problems without God’s guidance and leading. Seeing a loved one suffer, where a doctor has pronounced there is no hope for them to live, is one of those issues."

Canada has started down this road.  It is a slippery slope.  We are already seeing the consequences as MAID is being expanded to include mentally ill or anyone who might be depressed one day and decide it is time to end their life.  I believe a medical association or medical professional in Quebec is even calling for euthanasia of babies who are born with certain medical issues.  This just demonstrates how slippery a slope this is.  It is becoming more like the Nazis Third Reich or Stalin's Communist Russia.

"We are not to murder each other, or ourselves. God created human beings in His image and each of us carries within us the potential to overcome the evil in this world. If we are Christians, we no longer belong to ourselves, but to God. We are overseers of our bodies and our lives (which belong to Him), and we are responsible to guard that which has been entrusted to us. Euthanasia is a grievous sin that seriously hurts both the heart of God and others as well. Jesus is the great Healer and Miracle Worker and when we take matters into our own hands, we deny the power of God."

What the Bible Says About Euthanasia - Bible Resources

I would have to believe in Satan to accept that. 

 

Satan made me write that, didn't he?

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Canada is basically a heathen nation.  All this assisted dying (or killing) is an abomination is the sight of God.  Could be partly a result of the deadly influence of Romanism although many Romanists would oppose euthanasia.  Quebec is 95% Catholic;  yet the high medical authorities in Quebec are calling for Euthanasia of babies born with defects.  Also it was a Quebec judge who ruled MAID must be provided to people with mental illness and the federal government did not appeal it to the Supreme Court.  The thing about Romanism is it does not place God's written revelation, the Bible, as the final authority.  It makes the Roman church the final authority which creates a confused kind of moral vacuum.  It is not really Biblical Christianity.  Yet many of our leaders are part of that system.  They are the ones promoting abortion and assisted suicide.

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3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I would have to believe in Satan to accept that. 

 

Satan made me write that, didn't he?

That is exactly the point I made in the articles I quoted last night.  Satan wants people to believe he does not exist.  How else could he operate and deceive people if they believed he existed?  It serves his purpose perfectly when people claim they don't believe in God or Satan.  Then they are open to believe anything that originates from man's fallen, corrupt mind such as the idea that everyone should be free to do their own thing no matter what.  Or to believe as you said, that life is not sacred and humans are just a glob of chemicals.  That kind of stuff comes from Darwinism or secular humanist thinking and Satan loves it.  It is all part of his plan to take as many people to hell as he can.

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13 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I would have to believe in Satan to accept that. 

 

Satan made me write that, didn't he?

Don't be silly, Satan doesn't FORCE people to write bad things or punish those who write something different than what he believes in.  He may be Satan but he's not Disney for heck's sake.

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8 hours ago, bcsapper said:

The overarching consideration when it comes to using MAID should be the wishes of the person who wants to use it. 

Other than taking a life, I can think of no more egregious denial of basic human rights than forcing someone to live when they do not want to.

Life is not sacred.  Life is an accident that no-one asked for.  Hundreds of thousands of people who do not want to die, do so every day.  There is nothing wrong with providing assistance to someone who does want to die.

It would be nice if the government were able to solve everyone's problems, and I would certainly be open to paying more taxes to help them with that, but it's never going to be the case that they will be able to.

I disagree...MAID is not a universal way out, and should not apply in all cases... Such as mental health issues, every tour we did in Afghanistan we would come back, things we seem like they were normal, and the suicides would start, it was normal for 6 to 8 people to kill themselves before the next tour...and a lot more attempts, and even more thinking about it... had it be made available like this government wants it, those troops would be lined up around the corner, looking to take the easy way out....Considering most men and women that went on deployment came back with some form of PTSD...and those on the fighting echelons there was no question, only degrees of PTSD...a lot of soldiers were good at hiding it, most have 3 or more tours, with some having 8 tours...your brain can only handle so much trauma before it starts to shut down certain functions... like making sound decisions, 

PTSD kills "everything" about you, the love for you wife, kids, your life, your job, your family, everything and what is left of you the drugs and booze finishes you off.. but it is treatable, over time you can reinvent yourself...i say reinvent becasue you'll never be the same person your were.... Death is not the answer in this case...even if you want to die.. it's not the right option...Everyone's life should be treat like it is valuable...

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1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

I disagree...MAID is not a universal way out, and should not apply in all cases... Such as mental health issues, every tour we did in Afghanistan we would come back, things we seem like they were normal, and the suicides would start, it was normal for 6 to 8 people to kill themselves before the next tour...and a lot more attempts, and even more thinking about it... had it be made available like this government wants it, those troops would be lined up around the corner, looking to take the easy way out....Considering most men and women that went on deployment came back with some form of PTSD...and those on the fighting echelons there was no question, only degrees of PTSD...a lot of soldiers were good at hiding it, most have 3 or more tours, with some having 8 tours...your brain can only handle so much trauma before it starts to shut down certain functions... like making sound decisions, 

PTSD kills "everything" about you, the love for you wife, kids, your life, your job, your family, everything and what is left of you the drugs and booze finishes you off.. but it is treatable, over time you can reinvent yourself...i say reinvent becasue you'll never be the same person your were.... Death is not the answer in this case...even if you want to die.. it's not the right option...Everyone's life should be treat like it is valuable...

MAID should be available to anyone who wants it.  You can't tell someone with PTSD that they can't avail themselves of MAID if that is the path they want to take.  You have no right.

I understand PTSD can be a terrible thing to endure, but in the end, a person has the right to make a choice for themselves.

As I said above, I would be more than happy to pay more taxes so people can get the help they need, but if they make the decision anyway, I would support respecting it.

I really can't imagine forcing someone to live if they don't want to.

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9 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

MAID should be available to anyone who wants it.  You can't tell someone with PTSD that they can't avail themselves of MAID if that is the path they want to take.  You have no right.

MAID basically is having someone else commit murder of someone.  Are you telling us everyone has a right to have someone murder them if they so choose?  That is what MAID is.  A doctor or medical person is employed to murder someone who requested MAID.  Historically this kind of thing would have been considered as criminal.  Not in the new woke Canada that now leads the world in legalizing immorality and murder.

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Just now, blackbird said:

MAID basically is having someone else commit murder of someone.  Are you telling us everyone has a right to have someone murder them if they so choose? 

I don't think we're there yet, but that is what I would aim for, yes.

If you bring your God into it, I will be forced to ignore you.  No offence meant.

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1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Assistance suicide must be legal, It is the business of no damn government or person if I want to take my life for whatever reason. Mind your own damn business. Damn religions and religious people.

  Cursing at Christians and Bible believers won't win you any favour in a free and somewhat democratic western country like Canada.  That kind of thing needs to be investigated by authorities.  It sounds like a threat.

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5 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I don't think we're there yet, but that is what I would aim for, yes.

If you bring your God into it, I will be forced to ignore you.  No offence meant.

 If you prefer listening to evil things that will guarantee a place in hell rather than truth and righteousness and what God has said in his revelation, the Holy Bible, then it is truly tragic..........not for me, but for yourself.  Sad that truth hurts so much.  I wished I had someone correct me when I was growing up.

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20 minutes ago, blackbird said:

By the way, if someone blocks me, I am still able to reply to comments that person makes.  Blocking me does not stop me from commenting on any comment someone makes on a topic and I will continue to comment.

Just to be clear, when I said ignore you, I just meant ignore your post in reply to mine if you mentioned your God.  I didn't mean put you on ignore.  I've never put anyone on ignore, on any site.  You miss too much.

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44 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Just to be clear, when I said ignore you, I just meant ignore your post in reply to mine if you mentioned your God.  I didn't mean put you on ignore.  I've never put anyone on ignore, on any site.  You miss too much.

Fair enough.   I would miss you if you disappear or cut me off.   You are one of the more reasonable people to talk to.  Some throw insults and name calling.  You are much more reasonable to communicate with.  It would be sad if you stopped communicating.  Don't worry about my talking about God.  It won't cause any harm to you.  There are some guys on here that go completely bonkers.  Can't understand why.  Anyway hang in there.  When I talk about God it is only for a good purpose.

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Just now, blackbird said:

Fair enough.   I would miss you if you disappear or cut me off.   You are one of the more reasonable people to talk to.  Some throw insults and name calling.  You are much more reasonable to communicate with.  It would sad if you stopped communicating.  Don't worry about my talking about God.  It won't cause any harm to you.  There are some guys on here that go completely bonkers.  Can't understand why.  Anyway hang in there.  When I talk about God it is only for a good purpose.

Yeah, I should have said "I won't respond", instead of using the "ignore" word.

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