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27 minutes ago, blackbird said:

So you blame it on the Devil and don't accept any responsibility yourself?  "The Devil made me do it".  Pretty common saying.

That was my point from earlier.  The various churches have been horrific for thousands of years. (not counting you and all the other nice religious people)

I was wondering how the Devil could be any worse.  And now you say that even minor infractions and petty criminal behaviour are actually the responsibility of the perpetrator, and blaming the Devil is a cop out.

What is actually wrong with this Devil guy?  If he is a guy, of course.

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56 minutes ago, blackbird said:

So you blame it on the Devil and don't accept any responsibility yourself?  "The Devil made me do it".  Pretty common saying.

If you pay attention closely - you'll see that was the underlying point. Christians like yourself do just as much bad stuff as anyone else. Worse than some.  But - you excuse that behavior with either 'the devil' or 'not real christians' or whatever.  And you say to watch out for the devil because he's so evil - how is he more evil than the people who follow your "god"? It's hard to spot a difference.

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1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

If you pay attention closely - you'll see that was the underlying point. Christians like yourself do just as much bad stuff as anyone else. Worse than some.  But - you excuse that behavior with either 'the devil' or 'not real christians' or whatever.  And you say to watch out for the devil because he's so evil - how is he more evil than the people who follow your "god"? It's hard to spot a difference.

You are an expert with obfuscation and making claims that nobody can prove one way or another.  Frivolous allegations. Trying to debate that way is like a dog chasing his tail.  Waste of time.

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1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

The various churches have been horrific for thousands of years.

Another fake claim.  No proof, no evidence. Just dream up a phony claim and throw it out there.

If you really want to know something about the Devil, go to Amazon and download the kindle book called "Satan" by Chafer.  It is an interesting read and quite informative.  Kindle price $0.99 .   That's 99 cents.  You can't lose and might learn a lot.

The Biblical Doctrine of Satan (Annotated) eBook : Chafer, Lewis Sperry, Cone, Christopher, Scofield, C.I.: Amazon.ca: Kindle Store

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6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You are an expert with obfuscation and making claims that nobody can prove one way or another. 

Well first off it was sapper's point, not mine, and second off it wasn't a claim, it's a question. Given how god's people act how is the devil any worse?

6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Frivolous allegations. Trying to debate that way is like a dog chasing his tail.  Waste of time.

Yeah - i get that you get a little pissy when you realize that your god ain't all that and a box of crackers.  But it's hardly my fault that you can't even answer a simple question like that and i'ts REALLY not my fault considering it wasn't my question.

You jump in the middle of a conversation trying to push your sad little 'god' agenda and now you're angry because people are laughing at you.  Next time take the hint. You believe in whatever you want, we're not interested in your version of "harry potter and the nefarious cross".

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11 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well first off it was sapper's point, not mine, and second off it wasn't a claim, it's a question. Given how god's people act how is the devil any worse?

Yeah - i get that you get a little pissy when you realize that your god ain't all that and a box of crackers.  But it's hardly my fault that you can't even answer a simple question like that and i'ts REALLY not my fault considering it wasn't my question.

You jump in the middle of a conversation trying to push your sad little 'god' agenda and now you're angry because people are laughing at you.  Next time take the hint. You believe in whatever you want, we're not interested in your version of "harry potter and the nefarious cross".

I don't really care what your interests are.  I simply point out what I believe.  What you do with it is your business.  Don't ever become a lawyer in a court.  You will lose every time.

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

And you say to watch out for the devil because he's so evil - how is he more evil than the people who follow your "god"? It's hard to spot a difference.

You are asking a kind of question but I am not sure you are seriously asking.  Are you being serious are sarcastic?  You don't understand who God is and don't understand who Satan is.  So how can we get past the starting point.   You gave the impression you automatically dismiss anything to do with God.  You modus operandi is to insult or mock.

You would be wise to at least have a bare minimum of knowledge of what we are talking about.  Without even a basic idea, how can anyone discuss anything about it or get past the starting point.  You seem to very quick to reply with the answers, but not to interested in listening to anyone else.

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2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

What is actually wrong with this Devil guy? 

Fair question.   The introduction to the book I just mentioned on Kindle ,  Amazon says:

"The world has been willing to comply with the wishes and projects of Satan to the extent of ceasing to believe that he really exists; this unbelief being most advantageous to his present undertakings. Yet the opinions of men have never changed the facts of revelation, and, according to Scripture, Satan exists; still possessed with great power and influence over the affairs of men--"

Chafer, Lewis Sperry. The Biblical Doctrine of Satan (Annotated) . Exegetica Publishing. Kindle Edition. 

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2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

That was my point from earlier.  The various churches have been horrific for thousands of years. (not counting you and all the other nice religious people)

I was wondering how the Devil could be any worse.  And now you say that even minor infractions and petty criminal behaviour are actually the responsibility of the perpetrator, and blaming the Devil is a cop out.

What is actually wrong with this Devil guy?  If he is a guy, of course.

The Bible describes Satan's history.

In Isaiah in the Old Testament, there was once in the distant past before creation a chief angel in heaven called Lucifer.  He reportedly rebelled against God and was kicked out of heaven.  He took a third of the angels with him.  After he was kicked out, he was given a new name, Satan.  You see he thought he could replace God and this I believe is what his objective has been.  He is the prince of this world.  Many follow him and yet don't believe he exists.  That is the way he likes it because he can then easily manipulate or influence the world.

 

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6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I don't really care what your interests are.  I simply point out what I believe.  What you do with it is your business.  Don't ever become a lawyer in a court.  You will lose every time.

Well you obviously do considering you just had a hissy fit and wet yourself over it.  :)   If you didn't care you wouldn't be replying would you :)

6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You are asking a kind of question but I am not sure you are seriously asking.  Are you being serious are sarcastic? 

Well - again, it wasn't actually my question. I thought it was a good question - and i laughed at his point and replied to HIM joking about how the devil is so evil he makes us do things which was just playing off of his joke.

But - despite the fact i wasn't talking about or to you per se you took personal offense and picked a fight and now you're in it.

AMAZING how you christians magically become complete asswipes in an instant despite all that preaching about love.  Really makes it seem like you believe in what you preach.

6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You don't understand who God is and don't understand who Satan is.  So how can we get past the starting point.   You gave the impression you automatically dismiss anything to do with God.  You modus operandi is to insult or mock.

It's not my question - go answer the person who asked it. You're just being an asswipe.  And yeah - when someone is an aggressive retard with me they get insulted and they get mocked - and you're definitely in that category.

6 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You would be wise to at least have a bare minimum of knowledge of what we are talking about. 

"We" weren't talking about anything. You jumped into a conversation i was having with someone else.

But if i needed living proof that your god is fake and that you don't believe a word of the bible your actions here settle it nicely. You're a hypocrite and a fake.  Go show jesus your actions here and tell him all about how his spirit helped you to handle it just like he would.

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2 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Well you obviously do considering you just had a hissy fit and wet yourself over it.  :)   If you didn't care you wouldn't be replying would you :)

Well - again, it wasn't actually my question. I thought it was a good question - and i laughed at his point and replied to HIM joking about how the devil is so evil he makes us do things which was just playing off of his joke.

But - despite the fact i wasn't talking about or to you per se you took personal offense and picked a fight and now you're in it.

AMAZING how you christians magically become complete asswipes in an instant despite all that preaching about love.  Really makes it seem like you believe in what you preach.

It's not my question - go answer the person who asked it. You're just being an asswipe.  And yeah - when someone is an aggressive retard with me they get insulted and they get mocked - and you're definitely in that category.

"We" weren't talking about anything. You jumped into a conversation i was having with someone else.

But if i needed living proof that your god is fake and that you don't believe a word of the bible your actions here settle it nicely. You're a hypocrite and a fake.  Go show jesus your actions here and tell him all about how his spirit helped you to handle it just like he would.

You just described your modus operandi: name calling and insults.  That's your choice but it really discredits everything you said.   I never had a "hissy fit" as you claimed.  I simply replied and you throw insults and name calling back.   If you want to have a serious discussion, I am always willing. 

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8 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

But if i needed living proof that your god is fake and that you don't believe a word of the bible your actions here settle it nicely. You're a hypocrite and a fake.  Go show jesus your actions here and tell him all about how his spirit helped you to handle it just like he would.

I have clearly said I am willing to discuss the subject rationally and peacefully.  I think the only reason you came in here with BCSapper is to throw insults around.  You knew I was talking about God or Satan with him and just couldn't resist.

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1 hour ago, blackbird said:

I have clearly said I am willing to discuss the subject rationally and peacefully

But you didn't. You chose not to. So you weren't willing.

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

.  I think the only reason you came in here with BCSapper is to throw insults around.  You knew I was talking about God or Satan with him and just couldn't resist.

I was here already in case you weren't paying attention.  And despite the fact you know it's inappropriate and people consider it rude you jumped in and tried to 'convert' yet another thread into a religious one. ANd you got mocked as a result.  And after i shared one pretty tame joke with him you went after my throat crying the blues about me making "statements" which never happened and whining about a question i never asked.

When you act like an irresponsible rude obnoxious ass and you get treated as such - it's too late to complain and say you want to discuss it rationally. You've shown your poor character - and it really DOES make one wonder if christians are no better than anyone else and god doesn't lead them to good behavior then really how is he different than the devil in practical terms?

 

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1 hour ago, blackbird said:

You just described your modus operandi: name calling and insults. 

Yes - to those i find insulting and who act like an ass. As you did. And like a typical bully you take a swing at someone and then cry the blues when you get hit back.

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

/That's your choice but it really discredits everything you said. 

No, it really doesn't. YOU are the one who claims there's some deity that guides you to good behavior and yet behaved badly - i've been up front since day one that people who take a swing at me get the shite kicked out of them.  Sorry your hypocrisy has lead you to being emotionally damaged.

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

 I never had a "hissy fit" as you claimed. 

Of course you did. Do it again in the future and expect similar results.

God may not keep you in line, but perhaps knowing that i won't tolerate that kind of behavior might.

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2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Another fake claim.  No proof, no evidence. Just dream up a phony claim and throw it out there.

 

But earlier you said this:

"As I have pointed out before, the Holy Roman Empire ruled the world for 1,500 years with an iron fist.  Many of the followers of that system did rule the world brutally.  One example is the Holy Roman Inquisition that lasted at least 400 years through the middle ages.  Many other things happened like burning of witches.  These things had nothing to do with what Jesus taught.  I believe the Bible, not what those kind of people believed during the Holy Roman Empire.  Lots of bad things happened in history in all kinds of places.  We can't change history. "

It seems you are contradicting yourself.

 

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2 hours ago, blackbird said:

Fair question.   The introduction to the book I just mentioned on Kindle ,  Amazon says:

"The world has been willing to comply with the wishes and projects of Satan to the extent of ceasing to believe that he really exists; this unbelief being most advantageous to his present undertakings. Yet the opinions of men have never changed the facts of revelation, and, according to Scripture, Satan exists; still possessed with great power and influence over the affairs of men--"

Chafer, Lewis Sperry. The Biblical Doctrine of Satan (Annotated) . Exegetica Publishing. Kindle Edition. 

Okay, but how is he bad? 

We've established that religions have done evil things over the years. 

We've established that humans have to take responsibility for their own actions and "the Devil made me do it" is a cop out.

What has the Devil ever done to deserve all the bad press?

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7 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Okay, but how is he bad? 

We've established that religions have done evil things over the years. 

We've established that humans have to take responsibility for their own actions and "the Devil made me do it" is a cop out.

What has the Devil ever done to deserve all the bad press?

well... the skin, the horns the beard.. the guy's basically a furry. Nobody appreciates an evil furry.

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54 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Okay, but how is he bad? 

Good question.  

"How Did Lucifer Fall and Become Satan?

Lucifer became so impressed with his own beauty, intelligence, power, and position that he began to desire for himself the honor and glory that belonged to God alone. This pride represents the actual beginning of sin in the universe—preceding the fall of the human Adam by an indeterminate time."   The story of Lucifer's fall is described in Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14.

I should mention to use only the King James Bible (1611).   Modern versions have corrupted the history of Lucifer/Satan.  He has even had a hand in the production of modern versions of the Bible.

I am not an expert on it, but had a recollection that he rebelled against God and was kicked out of heaven.

So his name was changed to Satan but his goal is still the same.  He seeks the honor and glory that belongs to God.

The Story of Lucifer - How Did He Fall and Become Satan? (christianity.com)

54 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

We've established that religions have done evil things over the years. 

That is true.  Again this comes back to doctrine on the fall of man and as a result man has a fallen, corrupt nature.  That is the basic reason for all the wars, crime, and suffering in the world.  Most religions in the world are false in the sense they are not worshiping the true God of the Bible.  Also, because of man's corrupt nature, we have even within nominal Christianity cults, and large numbers of people who are not really following the Bible.  There are many shades of churches.  Some that are fairly close to the truth in what they believe, some in more error than others, and some that are false.  Even within any particular church, there are many different kinds of people.  A church is not a place where everyone is suddenly perfect humans.  Churches have been likened to hospitals where people that are suffering spiritually or searching for truth go to hear sound preaching that will help them.  

Many evil things have happened through the centuries by people in various religions and also apart from religion.  Atheists and communist, fascists have also done many evil things in history.

54 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

We've established that humans have to take responsibility for their own actions and "the Devil made me do it" is a cop out.

Quite true.

 

54 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

What has the Devil ever done to deserve all the bad press?

He is in opposition to God to begin with. From what I know  the Bible says he is a liar and the father of it.  He is a deceiver.  He tempted Eve to rebel against God in the beginning. 

"As a result of this heinous sin against God, Lucifer was banished from living in heaven (Isaiah 14:12). He became corrupt, and his name changed from Lucifer (“morning star”) to Satan (“adversary”). His power became completely perverted (Isaiah 14:12,16,17). And his destiny, following the second coming of Christ, is to be bound in a pit during the 1000-year millennial kingdom over which Christ will rule (Revelation 20:3), and eventually will be thrown into the lake of fire (Matthew 25:41). "   The Story of Lucifer - How Did He Fall and Become Satan? (christianity.com)

"Deceiver and Accuser

Even though this supernatural being, this fallen angel and archenemy of God, has a remarkable power in the material or physical realm —he can make people sick, he can throw them in prison, and he can even kill them — nevertheless, his main way of opposing God and destroying God’s people is not in the physical or material realm, but in the mental or intellectual or moral realm. In other words, the best way to think about his power is not in terms of physical strength, but moral deception.

Let me try to illustrate this from the Bible. Here’s the passage that piles up more designations of Satan than any other passage in the Bible. If I had only one or two verses to put the identity and work of Satan before you, it would be Revelation 12:9–10.

Here it says, “And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent.” And remember what the Bible said in Genesis 3 about him: he’s subtle. He’s subtler than every beast. So it’s his subtlety that’s being focused on here, his serpent-like reality. “And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil [διάβολος: slanderer, liar, cheat] and Satan [adversary], the deceiver of the whole world.”

I don’t think you can say anything more sweeping or more basic than the end of Revelation 12:9: “He is the deceiver of the whole world.” Verse 10: “The accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.”

So at the center of Satan’s purpose is to deceive on earth and to accuse in heaven. If he can deceive you about God and Christ, you will perish. If he can successfully accuse you of unforgiven sin in heaven, you will perish.

Jesus calls him “a murderer from the beginning” (John 8:44). The deception and the accusation and the eternal death that results from unforgiven sin is a way of destroying people and opposing God.

Worldwide Battleground

Josh asks me, “To what extent and by what means specifically does Satan influence the world?” My answer, therefore, is that the extent is worldwide and the means is deception."

For the full article:

Where Is Satan Most Visibly Active Today? | Desiring God

“He destroys not mainly by the sword or disease or killing, but mainly by lying.”

Edited by blackbird
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16 hours ago, Army Guy said:

..now if you say every politician is as just as bad i call bullshit...

"just as bad" is a highly subjective judgement.  My points was that if lying constantly is the threshold to qualify a politician as "immoral", you'd never find a moral one.  

16 hours ago, Army Guy said:

black and white is a good thing for me,it has worked for decades. 

Black and white is great for some things, especially when you need to make snap decisions - something I imagine you're good at with your experience.  For other things, especially for complicated topics with multiple conflicting priorities and imperfect information, it's just not.  

16 hours ago, Army Guy said:

when it is important, when my wife asks me does my ass look big in these pants of coursed i tell her she looks fine, but if we are talking about our national security then i think every Canadians wants to know the truth not some BS. 

Sure.  No argument there.  

16 hours ago, Army Guy said:

And i certainly don't agree voting Liberal after 8 years of knowing their record accomplished anything at all...Did the liberals take notice and become friendly...did the conservatives send you hate mail...I personal think both our actions accomplished nothing in the big picture...but i was not going to give my support to a flip flopper, and i was certainty not voting liberal after what they had already done...which was really very little...It all comes down to personal choice and i own mine...

 

I own mine as well, else I wouldn't be talking about it and explaining it.  At this point all we need to get rid of Justin is mild competence, and though Pierre Poilievre might have that, he also has enough bad qualities to override it.    

16 hours ago, Army Guy said:

If PP gets elected and he screws it up Royally then i think he will receive the same Justin treatment, but that would have to be a massive train wreck just to even get to the same level as Justin.  

I've said it before, but we can always do worse.  The USA went from Obama (bad) to Trump (worst).  

 

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3 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I've said it before, but we can always do worse.  The USA went from Obama (bad) to Trump (worst).  

Justin IS our trump.

What could another gov't do worse? Double our national debt? Create massive systemic overspending? Drive inflation through the roof? Create divisions in the country so bad that we may never be whole again? Severely curtail our freedoms? Pass laws which directly drive the violent crime rate up? Weaken or kill a dozen of our trade agreements? Call a third of the population 'bigots and mysogyinsts' and "wastes of space that shouldn't be tolerated"?  Declare the emergency act and start seizing bank accounts?

Seriously - this IS our 'worst'.

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1 minute ago, Moonbox said:

Though I agree with some of the points above, a lot of your criticism is hysterical. 

We can always do worse.  

For most of us. It's a concern but a pretty unlikely one. You can't do much worse than that.

For the liberals, it's a challenge.

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9 hours ago, blackbird said:

Good question.  

"How Did Lucifer Fall and Become Satan?

 

Thank you for the effort you put in there.  I don't think we're going to come together on the point I was trying to make, but that's okay.  I daresay the religious and the atheist rarely do.

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1 minute ago, bcsapper said:

Thank you for the effort you put in there.  I don't think we're going to come together on the point I was trying to make, but that's okay.  I daresay the religious and the atheist rarely do.

You're welcome. We kind of wandered around talking about a number of things such as history of the evil things done in the world and by religions.  Then I tried to explain, especially with websites that know much more than me, about who the Devil is and what part he plays in the evil in the world.  I believe the bottom line is what the Bible tells us particularly the King James Bible because it was written by eye witnesses to the power of God. 

I am just reading that book, The Biblical Doctrine of Satan, from Amazon Kindle I downloaded.  Read the first few pages.  It is quite interesting.  Looks like God for whatever reason allows Satan to have a certain amount of control and presence on earth until Christ returns.  He has deceived millions of people into believing he does not exist. 

But you are correct, religious and atheist rarely agree.  But that is what debate and discussion is for.  We share each other's views and that's all we can do.  What people do with it is their business.  Looks like it will be getting hot the next number of days.  Keep cool.

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3 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Thank you for the effort you put in there.  I don't think we're going to come together on the point I was trying to make, but that's okay.  I daresay the religious and the atheist rarely do.

Good luck on getting together on anything with that person LOL

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