The benefits of colonialism

[herbie]

The 'benefits' of colonialism being discussed by the descendants of the colonizers, who didn't really get any, while as usual the colonized are without voices.

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, herbie said:

The 'benefits' of colonialism being discussed by the descendants of the colonizers, who didn't really get any, while as usual the colonized are without voices.

You should take your credit card to their reserves and triple their housing values for them.  Its the least  you could do

[TreeBeard]

On 5/7/2023 at 2:59 PM, herbie said:

The 'benefits' of colonialism being discussed by the descendants of the colonizers, who didn't really get any, while as usual the colonized are without voices.

Excellent point.  Colonizers waxing poetic about how great colonization was sure seems to miss half the story.  
 

How many would guess that slave owners thought slavery was a wonderful institution?  Should we ask the slaves what they think too, or just rely on the one opinion?

[herbie]

13 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Should we ask the slaves what they think too

better not, they'd try to 'erase history' and convince everyone their masters weren't just f***ing golden. Might even tear down the statues that were erected to taunt them.

[CdnFox]

29 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Excellent point.  Colonizers waxing poetic about how great colonization was sure seems to miss half the story.  
 

How many would guess that slave owners thought slavery was a wonderful institution?  Should we ask the slaves what they think too, or just rely on the one opinion?

All of the colonizers are dead. There aren't any to 'wax' about anything. 

As to slave owners in canada those were mostly the first nations. But they;re all dead too so cant ask them.

[impartialobserver]

Well, colonialism is over. Those nations in Asia, South America, and Africa that were once under the foot of various European nations need to figure out their own way. The colonizers were not exactly friendly and cordial so I can understand the bitterness and vitriol but that is in the rear-view mirror. 

As a side note, I go out of my way to read authors from non-traditional places. First, it gives me a different perspective on those places (not better.. just different). Second, while not impactful in the least.. buying novels from these nations seems like a great way to help them without donating to some charity. Purchasing someone's labor seems more valid than just giving them money. 

[herbie]

On 5/17/2023 at 8:40 AM, impartialobserver said:

Well, colonialism is over.

Well the aftereffects sure aren't. From native issues, African disputes to a bloody war that's rooted in colonialism disguised as Russification, you can see that everywhere.

[impartialobserver]

16 minutes ago, herbie said:

Well the aftereffects sure aren't. From native issues, African disputes to a bloody war that's rooted in colonialism disguised as Russification, you can see that everywhere.

Sure, they are feeling the effects. However, do you really get somewhere by always looking in the rearview mirror? 

Edited May 18, 2023 by impartialobserver

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, herbie said:

Well the aftereffects sure aren't. From native issues, African disputes to a bloody war that's rooted in colonialism disguised as Russification, you can see that everywhere.

There is nothing in history that doesn't ripple through history. But colonialism is in fact over and people today get to choose how to handle that.  And their decisions are THEIR responsibility, not 'colonialism's'

[eyeball]

On 5/17/2023 at 8:40 AM, impartialobserver said:

Well, colonialism is over.

Colonialism is still well within people's living memory.  I have friends my age who were raped in schools run by our governments.  Reconciliation is just getting underway and will continue long past all of us here in this forum are dead.

Quote

Those nations in Asia, South America, and Africa that were once under the foot of various European nations need to figure out their own way.

That's well under way in places.  There used to be a time when other colonizers studied Canada's reserve system for lessons on how to colonize their indigenous people and now these indigenous people are studying Canada to figure out how to deal with their colonizers.

[CdnFox]

7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Colonialism is still well within people's living memory.  I have friends my age who were raped in schools run by our governments.  Reconciliation is just getting underway and will continue long past all of us here in this forum are dead.

Nope.  Sorry but that's not got shit all to do with 'colonialism'.  Rapes happen at many schools not just residential ones. Sorry.  And reconcilliation is about correcting issues of the past - the far past not yesterday.

7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

 There used to be a time when other colonizers studied Canada's reserve system for lessons on how to colonize their indigenous people and now these indigenous people are studying Canada to figure out how to deal with their colonizers.

Yeah - neither of those are true but it sure sounds great.

Colonization ended a long time ago. Canada has been a stand alone country at the VERY least since confederation and arguably for at least 100 years before that.

But now people just use it as a dirty word to mean 'people they don't like' without sounding racist. Which it is.

So now canada has to be responsible for the decisions it makes now.  And so do the first nations.

[eyeball]

11 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Nope.

Yup. 

[eyeball]

13 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

And reconcilliation is about correcting issues of the past - the far past not yesterday.

It's correcting issues that persist to this day  Most of BC is still unceded territory for which treaties still need to be negotiated. Reconciliation is also about correcting issues before they can even occur - after we're all dead.

[CdnFox]

16 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It's correcting issues that persist to this day 

Nope.

16 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Most of BC is still unceded territory for which treaties still need to be negotiated.

That's got nothing to do with colonization. That's just land ownership issues.

16 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Reconciliation is also about correcting issues before they can even occur - after we're all dead.

No it isn't. That's just building the country - same as every country does.

Colonization is long in the past.  We have problems today for all kinds of reasons, and they all need to be worked out as best we can. Hopefully we can make changes today that make for a better tomorrow.  Pretty much every country in the world can say those things and mean it.  We are not a colony.

[CdnFox]

26 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Yup. 

Nope.  Sorry but you're wrong. Again. Colonization ended long before anyone alive was born. Now "colonial" and "settler" are just derrogatory terms like "chug" and 'squaw' . Weak minded bigots and racists use it instead of real terms.

[eyeball]

15 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Nope.That's got nothing to do with colonization. That's just land ownership issues.

Which is exactly what colonization is about - sovereignty is the mother of all land ownership issues. I know you understand this but I also recognize that you've given yourself no choice but to be all nope about it.

BTW do you by any chance live in unceded territory?  You should try living under a treaty someday.  Reconciliation and treaty making is one of the biggest economic drivers in my region.

12 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Nope.  Sorry but you're wrong. Again. Colonization ended long before anyone alive was born. Now "colonial" and "settler" are just derrogatory terms like "chug" and 'squaw' . Weak minded bigots and racists use it instead of real terms.

You'd rather we use invader or thieves?  I doubt that'll make you feel any better about it.

Edited May 19, 2023 by eyeball

[CdnFox]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Which is exactly what colonization is about - sovereignty is the mother of all land ownership issues.

nope. Sorry but that may have been an issue during the colonization process but now it's just two groups, canada and the first nations. No colonization.  Gov'ts negotiate land use issues with all kinds of people all the time.

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

I know you understand this but I also recognize that you've given yourself no choice but to be all nope about it.

I understand fine. Is canada a colony? No.  Is canada currently working out land ownership and custody issues with a group? Yes. So - is that colonization? NO.  We are  a stand alone country. IF an agreement is reached it will be between CANADA and a first nations group - not a colonial gov't on behalf of another country.

Colonization is long since over. We HAVE THE LAND. It is in our possession. We've built on it, we've taken it over. it is now part of CANADA. So now all we're doing is looking at deals in a FEW PARTS of canada to straighen out land ownership issues that go back many years.

Not colonization.

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

BTW do you by any chance live in unceded territory?  You should try it someday.  Reconciliation and treaty making is one of the biggest economic drivers in my region.

If i do - i won't be a colonizer.  And unceded doesnt' mean it's not Canadian. 

[eyeball]

9 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

nope. Sorry but that may have been an issue during the colonization process but now it's just two groups, canada and the first nations. No colonization.  Gov'ts negotiate land use issues with all kinds of people all the time.

They're negotiating sovereignty issues however, with only one kind of people  - colonized people.

...land use issues...? 

[CdnFox]

Just now, eyeball said:

They're negotiating sovereignty issues however, with only one kind of people  - colonized people.

Nope. First nations stopped being 'colonized' years ago. They're canadians now. They vote, they get medical benefits, when they go abroad they take canadian passports, etc etc.

And they're not negotiating soverignty issues. They're negotiating land rights and local self governance - just like a municipality isn't a 'soverign' nation.

Where's the first nations pass ports? Wheres their currency? Where's their embassies around the world? Where's their immigration offices? When a first nations person is born, do they get canadian citizenship?

Not a soverignty issue.

Just now, eyeball said:

...land use issues...? 

You don't think they're discusssing land use issues?

Tell me you don't understand this stuff without telling me

[impartialobserver]

12 hours ago, eyeball said:

Colonialism is still well within people's living memory.  I have friends my age who were raped in schools run by our governments.  Reconciliation is just getting underway and will continue long past all of us here in this forum are dead.

That's well under way in places.  There used to be a time when other colonizers studied Canada's reserve system for lessons on how to colonize their indigenous people and now these indigenous people are studying Canada to figure out how to deal with their colonizers.

Lets use Senegal for example. They have been independent since roughly 1960. The road to independence started in the 1940's. That is 63 years at the very least. Yes, there are some who were alive during the colonial era. However, the vast majority of the population was born long after 1960.

are there remnants of the colonial era? Yes. First, the national boundaries were drawn by europeans who had zero knowledge of the tribes or settlement patterns. Those seemingly arbitrary boundaries have been at the root of a lot of conflicts throughout the continent. Next, the languages.. if Europeans never colonize, there would be a single digit number of natives who spoke French, English, Dutch, or German. Lastly, when you take resources in the past.. they can't be extracted and then monetized later. However, that is in the past and unless you can invent a time machine... there is no going back and fixing that. All they can do is make the best of what they have right now. Bad things happen.... truly strong and resilient folks move past it. Forgive but not forget. 

[eyeball]

10 hours ago, CdnFox said:

You don't think they're discusssing land use issues?

Tell me you don't understand this stuff without telling me

Discussions may simply be about land use where treaties have extinguished sovereignty but in places where extinguishment hasn't occurred sovereignty is still just a concept to be negotiated.  British colonial law clearly recognized the sovereignty of Canada's indigenous peoples. Canada however chose not to recognize indigenous sovereignty in the past and we refused to sign UNDRIP in the present.  Naturally it's no surprise why many 1st Nations don't recognize Canada.

So what sovereignty really means still hasn't been established and until such time as it is it comes down to either force (colonialism or activism) or negotiation.

I understand this well enough to have been involved with the treaty process where I live.

[CdnFox]

12 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Discussions may simply be about land use where treaties have extinguished sovereignty but in places where extinguishment hasn't occurred sovereignty is still just a concept to be negotiated

Nope.  Who has a say or ownership or interest in the land and it's use is open for discussion. Creating local gov'ts is open for discussion. But not a single native anywhere actualy wants soverignty. They'd have to come up with their own money, etc.

14 minutes ago, eyeball said:

  Naturally it's no surprise why many 1st Nations don't recognize Canada.

They seem to recognize the cheques just fine

Sorry - first nations are canadian and they don't get to be their own nation and they don't WANT to be their own nation. Imagine if they had NO say in the lands around them, got NO benefit cheques or access to any infrastructure or the like. They'd be dead in no time.

The courts have been clear. NEITHER side is going away. first nations can't divorce themselves from canada and they'd starve if they did.

In the meantime - i see both the pipelines that the provincial gov't allowed are proceeding and just about to finish. What were you saying about first nations being soverign?

[eyeball]

13 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Nope.  Who has a say or ownership or interest in the land and it's use is open for discussion. Creating local gov'ts is open for discussion. But not a single native anywhere actualy wants soverignty. They'd have to come up with their own money, etc.

That's simply an aspirational opinion of your's. You should go try peddling it in Haida Gwaii and see how far you get.

 

13 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

In the meantime - i see both the pipelines that the provincial gov't allowed are proceeding and just about to finish. What were you saying about first nations being soverign?

That settlers still need resort to force aka colonialism, to extinguish it.

Edited May 19, 2023 by eyeball

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

That's simply an aspirational opinion of your's. You should go try peddling it in Haida Gwaii and see how far you get.

Go ask them if they want to be a seperate nation with no money from canada.  Enjoy your swim back.

5 hours ago, eyeball said:

That settlers still need resort to force aka colonialism, to extinguish it.

Well a racist bigot would certainly say so.

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Well a racist bigot would certainly say so.

Sorry for peeing on your pancakes like this but Canadian isn't a race.

Besides which I'm an Earthing so you can't even call me a speciesist bigot.

Notwithstanding all the fish I've killed.