August1991 Posted May 19, 2023 Report Share Posted May 19, 2023 On 5/17/2023 at 9:14 PM, SpankyMcFarland said: There’s nothing especially pacific about us. In Canada, the European invaders were once a long way from trouble and we could tell ourselves nice stories. Now we aren’t. Russia and China are no longer faraway countries that we can ignore. Russia directly threatens our northern border and no Canadian should require lessons about the PRC’s intentions at this stage. I disagree. We people - native or otherwise - have a natural way to get along. Such is northern North America. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted May 19, 2023 Report Share Posted May 19, 2023 15 minutes ago, August1991 said: Compared to American "aggression" since 1991? Whataboutism. 15 minutes ago, August1991 said: We in the West won the Cold War. and Vladimir Putin is a revanchist looking to bring back those "glory days" for his country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted May 19, 2023 Report Share Posted May 19, 2023 IMHO, It is not about what this question or that... It is about the summer of 1914. ==== Like people in the early 1900s, we too now live well. I fear that our elite -like in 1914- is about to f*ck it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
August1991 Posted May 19, 2023 Report Share Posted May 19, 2023 I happen to think the European world of 1912 was civilised, wonderful. Lemberg, Konigsberg, Chernivtsi. Like Canada and America today, different people got along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted May 19, 2023 Report Share Posted May 19, 2023 Empires held together by large militaries and/or absolute monarchs by force is not "getting along". There is a reason this model collapsed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted May 19, 2023 Report Share Posted May 19, 2023 (edited) It's weird how, we as a society, can justify wars in the middle-east for decades because of 911. The Trillions of dollars, and lives lost spent trying to make Arab nations more Western. The first decade of this century was dedicated to a War on Terror. The implications of Russia being allowed to Ukraine are much worse than allowing the Taliban to take back Afghanistan or allowing Iran to basically have outright influence in Iraq, which is what those wars wrought. Russia will not stop at Ukraine. Putin wants to rebuild the Soviet Union. If NATO has one purpose it's keeping Russia from expanding West in Europe. If funding Ukraine, does that. So be it. The US spends more on Defense than all other allies combined, if helping another democracy defend itself against a tyrant, what good is all that money spent for? Edited May 19, 2023 by Boges 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted July 17, 2023 Report Share Posted July 17, 2023 On 5/19/2023 at 9:59 AM, Boges said: If funding Ukraine, does that. So be it. Thats just fear mongering. A deal stops the war. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 17, 2023 Report Share Posted July 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: Thats just fear mongering. A deal stops the war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted July 17, 2023 Report Share Posted July 17, 2023 25 minutes ago, Perspektiv said: Thats just fear mongering. A deal stops the war. What type of deal are we thinking? Allowing Russia to annex yet more of a nation's land? To unite Ethnic people within that land? It's the exact same playbook Hitler played from. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted July 17, 2023 Report Share Posted July 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Boges said: Allowing Russia to annex yet more of a nation's land? Or grind this out, and come to the same solution, but with hundreds of thousands of more deaths. Russia will not back down. It just cannot lose face. If your only hope for a win is a military coup in Russia, you have already lost the war. Only way out is negotiation. Ukraine will not win the war, but can attempt to get a better hand and leverage. Get all the tanks you wish. Land mines won't care for your advancements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted July 17, 2023 Report Share Posted July 17, 2023 1 hour ago, bcsapper said: Either you wave the white flag, or eventually the Russia flag. Sooner or later the west needs to look into pumping money into this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted July 17, 2023 Report Share Posted July 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: Or grind this out, and come to the same solution, but with hundreds of thousands of more deaths. Russia will not back down. It just cannot lose face. If your only hope for a win is a military coup in Russia, you have already lost the war. Only way out is negotiation. Ukraine will not win the war, but can attempt to get a better hand and leverage. Get all the tanks you wish. Land mines won't care for your advancements. Again what type of negotiated peace does this look like? This sounds like something a Putin Apologist would say. Negotiating with Putin only enables him. He's leading the world's #1 pariah state right now. 1 hour ago, Perspektiv said: Either you wave the white flag, or eventually the Russia flag. Sooner or later the west needs to look into pumping money into this. LOL, Alright Comrade. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted July 17, 2023 Report Share Posted July 17, 2023 What's funny to me is how these muddled buffoons are still pretending that Russia is a massive superpower - like it's impossible to beat an incompetently led, poorly supplied enemy full of soldiers who don't want to be there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted July 17, 2023 Report Share Posted July 17, 2023 3 hours ago, Boges said: Negotiating with Putin only enables him. There will not be another way to end this conflict. Ukraine is doomed without this as eventually world leaders will start to tire of a war. 2024 will be quite telling, as many republican leaders see negotiating an end to the war as a priority. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted July 18, 2023 Report Share Posted July 18, 2023 Ukraine is not going to stop until they have thrown everything at Russia including the kitchen sink..., The west will grow tired of supporting Ukraine, and stop suppling it with arms... cracks have already started to show up in the support circle...The car boards are all most dried up...and if the counter offensive does not start showing greater results Ukraine may be left out in the cold and forced to accept some peace that is not acceptable to Ukrainians. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted July 18, 2023 Report Share Posted July 18, 2023 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: Ukraine is not going to stop until they have thrown everything at Russia including the kitchen sink Matters little, as their strong held positions are insanely booby trapped. Even Ukraine's president had to temper expectations, with people expecting far more advances. He would be taking heavy losses, in doing so. 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: The west will grow tired of supporting Ukraine, and stop suppling it with arms As long as Russia firmly holds its positions, it applies far more pressure on Ukraine and the patience of the west. 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: accept some peace that is not acceptable to Ukrainians If the war is ended and they join NATO, they lose a lot but prevent future attacks. This was preventable, so to me, the goal isn't getting back your land--but to end this with as strong a hand as possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted July 18, 2023 Report Share Posted July 18, 2023 17 hours ago, Perspektiv said: Matters little, as their strong held positions are insanely booby trapped. Even Ukraine's president had to temper expectations, with people expecting far more advances. He would be taking heavy losses, in doing so. As long as Russia firmly holds its positions, it applies far more pressure on Ukraine and the patience of the west. If the war is ended and they join NATO, they lose a lot but prevent future attacks. This was preventable, so to me, the goal isn't getting back your land--but to end this with as strong a hand as possible. Russians have had their primary logistics tail cut, Supplies will begin to dwindle shortly, once Ammo, Fuel, and food get low things are going to get sporty for both sides, Russians will be looking at huge losses of lives, Ukrainian civilians in the areas will also pay a huge price, as Russian forge for food, and fuel. It might be enough to force a huge pull back for the Russians, My best guess, anything could happen really. Ukraine is going to have a tough time swallowing loosing any lands to Russia, and will only be a sore spot later on which could trigger another war... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted July 18, 2023 Report Share Posted July 18, 2023 1 hour ago, Army Guy said: Ukraine is going to have a tough time swallowing loosing any lands to Russia This could have been prevented. Zelenskyy was talking that tough talk, likely fueled by the impression that the US would not allow an invasion to occur. That sobering reality that they were on their own to face this, with great speeches being given in "solidarity" but nobody wanting to genuinely engage with Russia, did they realize that they bit more than they could chew. Russia doesn't follow rules. The US has done the same to rogue leaders that didn't toe the line. Russia would be any different? This has nothing to do with freedom. This is massive egos getting in the way, and western tax payers being forced to foot the bill. Virtue signaling your way into their hearts will only last so long with no progress to show on the news, and Russia standing their ground. 2024. I call it. A new US republican leader puts an end to this nonsense. Ukraine hates losing more of their country? Okay, fight the war on your coin. With your weapons. Corrupt your own dollars. Our money should mean our terms. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted July 19, 2023 Report Share Posted July 19, 2023 20 hours ago, Perspektiv said: This could have been prevented. Zelenskyy was talking that tough talk, likely fueled by the impression that the US would not allow an invasion to occur. That sobering reality that they were on their own to face this, with great speeches being given in "solidarity" but nobody wanting to genuinely engage with Russia, did they realize that they bit more than they could chew. Russia doesn't follow rules. The US has done the same to rogue leaders that didn't toe the line. Russia would be any different? This has nothing to do with freedom. This is massive egos getting in the way, and western tax payers being forced to foot the bill. Virtue signaling your way into their hearts will only last so long with no progress to show on the news, and Russia standing their ground. 2024. I call it. A new US republican leader puts an end to this nonsense. Ukraine hates losing more of their country? Okay, fight the war on your coin. With your weapons. Corrupt your own dollars. Our money should mean our terms. Prevented how? Last time i checked talking tough is not against inter national law, or any of the conventions... NO country has the ability to just invade another with out cause under any of the convention or laws... talking tough is not an excuse for invading any country... The west is enforcing inter national law and policies that protect each nations sovereignty, what is the point of having laws if there is no way to enforce them....What would stop nations like Russia or China from swallowing up other nations at their will. Everyone knows Russia does not follow any rules, which is why the rush to join NATO, and it is only going to get larger, as NATO is looking at expanding into Asia. History has already shown us what happens when we force our terms onto another country, take Germany in WWI for an example. i wonder if we did change the terms how many life's could have been saved by not doing WWII... NATO already knows it is just a empty shell compared to what it use to be, we are seeing it in our country how deep the rot is, but we are also seeing it in other countries as well. Germany, UK, France, Dutch, etc...hence why they can not afford to allow itself to be dragged into this war, it is much cheaper to support Ukraine from an arms length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeaverFever Posted July 19, 2023 Report Share Posted July 19, 2023 23 hours ago, Perspektiv said: 2024. I call it. A new US republican leader puts an end to this nonsense. Republicans have a large fascist pro-Putin faction so it’s totally possible that the the party of “Collusion is not a crime” and “I believe Putin’s word over American intelligence officers” would side with Russia and let Putin takeover Ukraine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted July 19, 2023 Report Share Posted July 19, 2023 2 hours ago, Army Guy said: convention or laws Putin doesn't care for laws. You're correct on this. Why did the US invade Iraq and not face consequences when their motive prove false for doing so? They don't apply? 3 hours ago, Army Guy said: it is much cheaper to support Ukraine from an arms length You're the first person I have heard talking about billions of dollars already spent on a war, as cheap. Soon enough, many Americans will vote with their feet, as to whether they want to continue spending billions on this. You may become very disappointed by the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted July 20, 2023 Report Share Posted July 20, 2023 3 hours ago, Perspektiv said: Putin doesn't care for laws. You're correct on this. Why did the US invade Iraq and not face consequences when their motive prove false for doing so? They don't apply? You're the first person I have heard talking about billions of dollars already spent on a war, as cheap. Soon enough, many Americans will vote with their feet, as to whether they want to continue spending billions on this. You may become very disappointed by the result. Why would he care they are rarely enforced. Kuwait ring a bell...And no nuclear weapons were found, does not mean none existed...They are still finding stuff buried in the desert, like fighter aircraft etc...Chemical weapons' were found by the tons, also consider WMD's and destroyed. What NATO has spent already is pretty cheap considering the total cost of Iraq or Afghanistan conflicts which was in the trillions...2 trillion in Afghanistan alone... almost 1 trillion for Iraq, note these are just what the US spent...not the entire coalition... I've already said that for the most part this is a US led investment, and they are already second guessing themselves, Trump haws already said he would stop this in a day...i don't think trump is going to be a factor, but who knows in todays environment...Ukraine needs to show some better results on the ground than they have been doing....i think with cutting off most supplies into the area things will start to turn around.... all that men/equipment needs mountains of ammo, and fuel...to run...and when it starts to run out Ukraine will find the Russian soldier a more willing to surrender...The Russians already have ammo and equipment problems before they took out the bridges...now it is going to get much worse... I think Ukraine has until Biden is removed from office, before they need to worry about the lack of support ..then they will have to depend on Europe...this will just empower Putin even more, it is really the only thing hold Putin back and thats US weapons' and support. And the US knows this as well. It would be handing Ukraine to Russia on a platter.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted July 20, 2023 Report Share Posted July 20, 2023 21 minutes ago, Army Guy said: I think Ukraine has until Biden is removed from office, before they need to worry about the lack of support ..then they will have to depend on Europe...this will just empower Putin even more, it is really the only thing hold Putin back and thats US weapons' and support. And the US knows this as well. It would be handing Ukraine to Russia on a platter.. The Republican House and most republican voters still support supplying Ukraine. It's mostly just Trump and his army of zombies that don't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perspektiv Posted July 20, 2023 Report Share Posted July 20, 2023 5 hours ago, Army Guy said: I think Ukraine has until Biden is removed from office If Putin is holding until then, he likely gambled correctly, and will get to hold onto some land. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted July 20, 2023 Report Share Posted July 20, 2023 On 7/17/2023 at 11:42 AM, Boges said: What type of deal are we thinking? Allowing Russia to annex yet more of a nation's land? To unite Ethnic people within that land? It's the exact same playbook Hitler played from. No it is not. Those eastern provinces ASKED Russia for help...for several years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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