Unvaccinated woman denied organ transplant proves natural immunity in bid for life-saving procedure

[Army Guy]

Regardless if vaccinations are good or not, Since when does medical professionals who took an oath to save lives period, now are allowed to play politics with peoples lives... One would think that this decision would be based on where is she on the list, and what are her chances of surviving the operation...when right now her chances have been reduced to zero, for no other reason than not getting a covid shot...

I mean i get it, i remember early on this forum there was talks of rounding up people unvaccinated and shipping them off to camps at gun point... ya it went there.... people panicked or should i say went out of their minds, bought toilet paper, and cleaning materials like the world was going to end...and this is not the first case of medical people refusing medical care to the unvaccinated... imigine we live in a country where we export millions to ensure women's rights, and human rights round the globe and right here in our own country we refuse to medically treat any one unvaccinated...does that sound like a first world country...that may be your Canada , but it ain't mine...

[CdnFox]

4 hours ago, Aristides said:

The more people who get vaxxed means there is less transmission and it actually protects the unvaxxed as well. That's how vaccines work.

The vaccine was arguably not bad at stopping transmission with the first variant, ok at best with delta, and is of no benefit in the slightest with omicron. There's plenty enough mainstream studies that show that.  It looks like it helped prevent serious illness with omicron so it was valuable for that but honestly the latest version out there just isn't killing people much more than the flu does.  Covid is over.

[Aristides]

4 hours ago, Goddess said:

This is the kind of post people who read CBC headlines make.

The actual studies and datasets from around the world show that vaccinated people are getting covid repeatedly and in far higher numbers than unvaccinated people.

I believe the studies and data, not CBC headlines. The injections are not stopping transmission and they are not stopping hospitalizations and deaths.

You want proof?

You're on injection #6. In less than 2 years.

I think you get a toaster after injection #9.

Or turbo-cancer.

One of the two.

It's been true since vaccines were invented. It's that herd immunity you have been going on about. They are not stopping hospitalizations and deaths but they have sure cut them down. 

I will get them just like the flu shot that I have been getting every year for the last 25 years, the pneumonia shot I get every 5 years and tetanus shot every 10 years. 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Aristides

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

Regardless if vaccinations are good or not, Since when does medical professionals who took an oath to save lives period, now are allowed to play politics with peoples lives...

It's not politics.  Medical professionals have a duty to ensure that precious organ donations are not wasted.  It's similar calculus to why younger people have a measure of priority over the elderly, and why alcoholics and drug addicts are regularly denied.

An overweight almost 60-year-old with double lung failure who refuses to be vaccinated for a highly contagious and potentially deadly respiratory virus is a bad risk considering she'll be immuno-compromised after the transplant.   Like...FFS.  

Giving her two lungs means that there are two people out there who only need one lung that aren't going to get it, and maybe die. 

The balance of ethics when it comes to organ transplants is about equity vs utility.  If you have two patients and one of them has a 25% chance of surviving 5 years, and the other has an 50% chance of surviving 10 years, the latter is prioritized.  

 

Edited April 28, 2023 by Moonbox

[Goddess]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

Yup, well - I guess I'm wrong and embarrassed - my apologies to @Goddess.

As for vitriol, talk to your girlfriend about hers - calling people drunks, liars, idlots etc. - she gets what she gives.

You are an excellent example of when a person hates another person or group - they can't think rationally.

This is not the first time you've done this.

You can take your fake apology and shove it.

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, dialamah said:

Yup, well - I guess I'm wrong and embarrassed - my apologies to @Goddess.

As for vitriol, talk to your girlfriend about hers - calling people drunks, liars, idlots etc. - she gets what she gives.

Now now,  I offered to take you out for coffee once.

[CdnFox]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

It's not politics.  Medical professionals have a duty to ensure that precious organ donations are not wasted.

She was already approved and meets the requirements, so they won't be wasted. She's proven medically that she's as protected as anyone with the jab. So how would they be wasted?

This is political and vindictive, We've seen that the 'must vax' crowd  is absolutely hate filled and intolerant and  looks to hurt the vax hesitant any way they can frequently with no basis in science.

This is really bad and every canadian should speak out against it.' Just like in the day they should have spoken out against the Japanese concentration camps, the sterlization of native women and the res schools,

But they didn't. Do you really want to be on that side of history for this go around?

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

The graph on the right shows the % of covid deaths attributable to each group of people, sorted by vax status.

Yes and time and time again the 10% or so of Canadians who aren't vaccinated always make up 40-50% of cases, hospitalizations and deaths.

This never ever changes no matter how much you insist we read it backwards too.

[Moonbox]

45 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

She was already approved and meets the requirements, so they won't be wasted. She's proven medically that she's as protected as anyone with the jab. So how would they be wasted?

No, she proved she needed the transplant.  She originally jumped the queue to the top of the list because her health was deteriorating quickly.  She was bumped off when she refused to follow the physicians' instructions and conditions.  You can get refused surgery for being too fat, among a bunch of other reasons too.  

As for her protection, she won't be.  She's already had COVID twice and will likely get it again because natural immunity doesn't last.  

45 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

This is political and vindictive, We've seen that the 'must vax' crowd  is absolutely hate filled and intolerant and  looks to hurt the vax hesitant any way they can frequently with no basis in science.

It's not political.  It's just a dumb woman being exceptionally dumb.  The Darwin Awards sent her an invitation, and she's excited to go, I guess.  You clowns are always so quick to talk about "no basis in science", when the scientists and health professionals are the ones you're screeching at.  

45 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

This is really bad and every canadian should speak out against it.' Just like in the day they should have spoken out against the Japanese concentration camps, the sterlization of native women and the res schools,

Right, just like the concentration camps.  ?

[CdnFox]

26 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

No, she proved she needed the transplant.  She originally jumped the queue to the top of the list because her health was deteriorating quickly. 

That literally means she was approved.

26 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

She was bumped off when she refused to follow the physicians' instructions and conditions.  You can get refused surgery for being too fat, among a bunch of other reasons too.  

but she wasn't fat or any other reason. The reason was "we don't like your deicisons".  As noted they are not based on medical science.

26 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

As for her protection, she won't be.  She's already had COVID twice and will likely get it again because natural immunity doesn't last.  

Nothing does. I'm not aware of any research that suggests that the vax lasts any longer than natural. And she'll get it again either way, the vax doesn't prevent you GETTING omicron.

26 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

It's not political. 

It's political.

26 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Right, just like the concentration camps.  ?

They're letting a woman die, not because she did something but because she didn't agree with them on something that medically won't make a difference in her case.

I'm sure that the people who locked up teh japanese sounded just like you. "This is TOTALLY reasonable and it's their fault".

Lets face it - you'd just rather see another anti vaxxer die. Many on the 'must-vax side express a desire to see vax hesitant people  perish for their beliefs.

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

That literally means she was approved.

Yeah she was approved, with conditions, and then she declined meet them.  The approval process isn't black and white, stamped and sealed.  The physicians always have final say, especially with transplants when one person getting an organ means another is likely to die.  

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

but she wasn't fat or any other reason. The reason was "we don't like your deicisons".  As noted they are not based on medical science.

The reason was she won't get vaccinated for a highly contagious respiratory virus prior to getting a double lung transplant.  

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Nothing does. I'm not aware of any research that suggests that the vax lasts any longer than natural. And she'll get it again either way, the vax doesn't prevent you GETTING omicron.

But outcomes are, always have been and will continue to be better for those who are vaccinated.  They also have statistics and experience with how poor the outcomes have been for unvaccinated transplant patients who contract COVID.  Something like 40% of them died before vaccines were available. 

Whether or not you choose to believe that is irrelevant.  It's irrelevant to me.  It's irrelevant to the doctors making their decisions, and it's even more irrelevant to the Courts who keep dismissing these dumb cases.  

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

They're letting a woman die, not because she did something but because she didn't agree with them on something that medically won't make a difference in her case.

They're letting a profoundly stupid and pig-headed woman choose to die.  

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Lets face it - you'd just rather see another anti vaxxer die. Many on the 'must-vax side express a desire to see vax hesitant people  perish for their beliefs.

I wonder if it's even possible for you to go more than a few posts without one of these exercises in emotional projection.  ?

As for this woman, I don't wish to see her die.  I just don't have any sympathy.  The transplants were hers to be had and she decided to make a spectacularly stupid stand for foolish beliefs at the cost of her life.  That's Darwinism. 

The other side of this topic that people forget  is that there were 1-2 people behind her in the transplant waitlist, desperately hoping to get their chance to live, and having the humility, grace and responsibility to actually appreciate it.  

Edited April 28, 2023 by Moonbox

[CdnFox]

5 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Yeah she was approved, with conditions, and then she declined meet them.

Actually those conditions didn't exist when she went on the list as i understand it

But regardless the point is the conditions are not based on medical science, They're political.

6 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

The reason was she won't get vaccinated for a highly contagious respiratory virus prior to getting a double lung transplant.  

She's provided proof she already has the same level of protection

6 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

But outcomes are, always have been and will continue to be better for those who are vaccinated.

There's no proof of that being true anymore, The evidence would suggest otherwise . At this point almost NOBODY is vaxxed, their last boosters would have worn off and only a small percent are keeping up with them.

 

8 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

They're letting a profoundly stupid and pig-headed woman choose to die.  

So in your mind she deserves death because she's stupid and pig headed.  Better hope YOU never get anything terminal

And as noted she's provided medical proof she's already got the antibodies. 

So we get to the meat of it. You think she deserves to be 'left to die' because she's, in your opinion, pig headed and stupid.

so it's political.

Well - at least you stopped pretending it was anything else.

[Moonbox]

7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Actually those conditions didn't exist when she went on the list as i understand it

Whether or not to proceed is always, always, always at the clinical discretion of the physicians handling the cases.  The waitlist is not an immutable contract, as evidenced by the fact that she originally jumped the queue ahead of other people, until she decided to be a smooth-brain, and was herself bumped.  

7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

But regardless the point is the conditions are not based on medical science, They're political.

Repeating that over and over again doesn't make it so.  That's for the doctors and the medical community (the actual medical scientists) to decide, and thankfully not you.  

7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

She's provided proof she already has the same level of protection

Yes, she sought out and paid for an opinion that repeated her argument.  Nevermind her "proof", her natural immunity wanes over time and the only way to reset that is to actually get COVID, whereas a vaccine is under your control.  She'd likely be on immuno-suppressants for a year, and transplant patients are generally more vulnerable to diseases and complications for the rest of their lives. 

Part of the doctor's duty is to make sure the gift of life is going to someone who will look after themselves.  

7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

There's no proof of that being true anymore, The evidence would suggest otherwise . 

Except that's just painfully, obliviously wrong.  

That's the last 120 days leading up to March 26th, from Public Health Ontario.  

7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

So in your mind she deserves death because she's stupid and pig headed.  Better hope YOU never get anything terminal

I'm saying she doesn't deserve sympathy.  She was offered a precious gift, one that half of organ donor candidates never get, and she squandered it by trying to dictate the conditions of the gift she was offered.  

If I'm ever terminal and need an organ transplant to survive, I'll listen to the doctors.   ?

 

[dialamah]

12 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Whether or not to proceed is always, always, always at the clinical discretion of the physicians handling the cases.  The waitlist is not an immutable contract, as evidenced by the fact that she originally jumped the queue ahead of other people, until she decided to be a smooth-brain, and was herself bumped.  

Repeating that over and over again doesn't make it so.  That's for the doctors and the medical community (the actual medical scientists) to decide, and thankfully not you.  

Yes, she sought out and paid for an opinion that repeated her argument.  Nevermind her "proof", her natural immunity wanes over time and the only way to reset that is to actually get COVID, whereas a vaccine is under your control.  She'd likely be on immuno-suppressants for a year, and transplant patients are generally more vulnerable to diseases and complications for the rest of their lives. 

Part of the doctor's duty is to make sure the gift of life is going to someone who will look after themselves.  

Except that's just painfully, obliviously wrong.  

That's the last 120 days leading up to March 26th, from Public Health Ontario.  

I'm saying she doesn't deserve sympathy.  She was offered a precious gift, one that half of organ donor candidates never get, and she squandered it by trying to dictate the conditions of the gift she was offered.  

If I'm ever terminal and need an organ transplant to survive, I'll listen to the doctors.   ?

 

Similarly, if someone has alcohol related cirrhosis of the liver, they will not get a transplant unless they stop drinking.  

Having read a less biased version of this story, the courts aren't so much ruling that unvaxed can't get transplants, but are upholding the medical system's right to set the criteria under which someone is approved for transplant.  The.goal is to give organs to the people most likely to do well, and at this time it's believed that unvaxed transplant patients do not do well if they get Covid - the death rate is significantly higher than the general public, vaxed or unvaxed.

[WestCanMan]

17 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Regardless if vaccinations are good or not, Since when does medical professionals who took an oath to save lives period, now are allowed to play politics with peoples lives...

The theory that the [politically motivated] health professionals use is that people who are vaxed have a higher chance of recovery after surgery, etc, because they're 'protected' from the virus.

Things don't have to make sense anymore, if people just say them often enough it's considered factual now, no matter how blatantly false it is. 

Our leftists model their campaign strategies after Goebbels' method of communication. 

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Similarly, if someone has alcohol related cirrhosis of the liver, they will not get a transplant unless they stop drinking.

True enough.  I think this particular case is more nuanced than an alcoholic asking for a liver transplant, but then there are parallels.  Refusing vaccination for dangerous and widespread respiratory illnesses while waiting for a lung transplant definitely gets taken into account.  

2 hours ago, dialamah said:

Having read a less biased version of this story, the courts aren't so much ruling that unvaxed can't get transplants, but are upholding the medical system's right to set the criteria under which someone is approved for transplant.  The.goal is to give organs to the people most likely to do well, and at this time it's believed that unvaxed transplant patients do not do well if they get Covid - the death rate is significantly higher than the general public, vaxed or unvaxed.

Exactly. The Courts aren't interested in hearing Charter arguments on these sorts of things.  They've been throwing out challenges from every direction when it comes to vaccination mandates/requirements.  

[Nationalist]

On 4/26/2023 at 2:36 PM, herbie said:

So she was so f***ing butt stubborn she wouldn't get the vaccine to save her own f***ing life.
And we're supposed to have sympathy for her.

Willing to have herself cut open and someone elses guts stuffed inside her, but scared of a little needle jab....  in spite of having in twice. Like I guess we all know people who are so f***ing stupid they've had Covid two or three times and think that proves vaccines are bad.... DUHHHHHH ya just cant fix stupid.

I feel that you've just adequately exemplified that...

[herbie]

You're as welcome to use a Covid Karen for a martyr to your lost cause as you are are sawed-off runt of a Hollywood Jew hater as your symbol of Freedumb.

[Nationalist]

4 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

True enough.  I think this particular case is more nuanced than an alcoholic asking for a liver transplant, but then there are parallels.  Refusing vaccination for dangerous and widespread respiratory illnesses while waiting for a lung transplant definitely gets taken into account.  

Exactly. The Courts aren't interested in hearing Charter arguments on these sorts of things.  They've been throwing out challenges from every direction when it comes to vaccination mandates/requirements.  

This is a problem. I understand that natural immunity is deems as good as vaxxed. This person has the same immunity as a vaxxed person. Refusal to operate is thus, just a imposition of the vaxx.

[Nationalist]

20 minutes ago, herbie said:

You're as welcome to use a Covid Karen for a martyr to your lost cause as you are are sawed-off runt of a Hollywood Jew hater as your symbol of Freedumb.

Covid Karen? sawed-off runt of a Hollywood Jew hater?

What the hell are you barking about? Do you talk like this in public?

[Goddess]

21 hours ago, dialamah said:

Yup, well - I guess I'm wrong and embarrassed - my apologies to @Goddess.

As for vitriol, talk to your girlfriend about hers - calling people drunks, liars, idlots etc. - she gets what she gives.

He admits he was drunk posting yesterday. I suspect it's happened more often than just yesterday.

"I had a wild one yesterday with the Whiskey, and it was enjoyable to read through all my messages."

Its on his Day Zero thread.

[Moonbox]

25 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

This is a problem. I understand that natural immunity is deems as good as vaxxed. This person has the same immunity as a vaxxed person. Refusal to operate is thus, just a imposition of the vaxx.

Even if natural immunity is as good as vaxxed, it doesn't last.  The vaccines don't either, but the important distinction is that they could reset her immunity and make it as strong as possible leading into her transplant, and just as importantly strengthen it in the months/years post-transplant when she'll still be vulnerable.  
 

The doctors who watched transplant patients die of COVID in droves (something like 40% of unvaccinated transplant patients died after contracting COVID), are fortunately the ones whose opinions matter...not outrage mongers on rebel and true north news.  

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, Moonbox said:

Even if natural immunity is as good as vaxxed, it doesn't last.  The vaccines don't either, but the important distinction is that they could reset her immunity and make it as strong as possible leading into her transplant, and just as importantly strengthen it in the months/years post-transplant when she'll still be vulnerable.  
 

The doctors who watched transplant patients die of COVID in droves (something like 40% of unvaccinated transplant patients died after contracting COVID), are fortunately the ones whose opinions matter...not outrage mongers on rebel and true north news.  

Perhaps...today.

But I bet she reported that she'd just recovered from The Rona, as soon as she had. Which means her immunity at that time, was up to snuff. Yet they denied her at that time. Why?

Seems pretty obvious that obedience was a real issue for these doctors.

[dialamah]

20 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Perhaps...today.

But I bet she reported that she'd just recovered from The Rona, as soon as she had. Which means her immunity at that time, was up to snuff. Yet they denied her at that time. Why?

Seems pretty obvious that obedience was a real issue for these doctors.

The requirement for organ transplant is vaccination.  It isn't "prove you have immunity for a short period of time".  The court is upholding the right of the health care providers to determine their own criteria.  

[Nationalist]

1 minute ago, dialamah said:

The requirement for organ transplant is vaccination.  It isn't "prove you have immunity for a short period of time".  The court is upholding the right of the health care providers to determine their own criteria.  

That's a fcking cop-out and you know it.