What are your thoughts on the Orange Order in Canada?

[blackbird]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

and here it is to this day

Maple Cottage on Laing Street in Toronto

birthplace of the nation

Interesting. 

But what does that cottage on Laing street have to do with it?

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

Interesting. 

But what does that cottage on Laing street have to do with it?

the Maple Leaf Forever by Alexander Muir is the first Canadian institution

the first thing that was distinct from the British as being  Canadian

the Maple Leaf in the Canadian flag you fly now

is from the Maple Tree at Maple Cottage on Laing Street in Toronto

[Dougie93]

13 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Interesting. 

But what does that cottage on Laing street have to do with it?

then when the Canadian Corps was formed to take Vimy Ridge in 1917

the Maple Leaf from Maple Cottage in Toronto, became their crest

a nation forged in fire on the Western Front

to win the Great War in a Hundred Days

Canada bereaved broods over the fallen on Hill One Four Five at Pas de Calais

[Dougie93]

29 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Interesting.

this is the torch

the torch thrown to you with failing hands

spoken by Lt. Colonel John McCrae from Flanders

[Moonlight Graham]

They sound like tribalists.  And the whole protestant/catholic thing was really stupid.

[Dougie93]

Protestants v. Catholic was a global war for world domination

the Hegmons were Spain & France, both tyrannical Roman Catholic absolute monarchies

the Protestants in England rose up and overthrew their Catholic King Charles I in the English Civil War

when the Protestants finally won the war, founding Parliamentary Supremacy

this was the birth liberal democracy itself, the birth of the modern liberal state

and it was so good for business, so much money fleeing Roman Catholic autocracy to free enterprise in Britain

that suddenly Great Britain surpassed Spain & France to become the dominant world power

[Dougie93]

and this is why, I would suggest, that Canada is no longer a liberal democrcy

this is why Canada has become an illiberal democracy

because Canadians don't know their own history

so Canadians don't believe in their historical system of governance anymore

Canadians now believe that the centrally planned nanny state government should run everything for them

this then results in the Canadian economy becoming moribund

Socialist nanny police state Canada simply cannot compete with the free enterprise in America

and this is why the Chinese Communists have taken control of Canada

because Canada needs the Chinese to prop Canada up, in the face of an increasingly protectionist America

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

and this is why, I would suggest, that Canada is no longer a liberal democrcy

this is why Canada has become an illiberal democracy

because Canadians don't know their own history

so Canadians don't believe in their historical system of governance anymore

Canadians now believe that the centrally planned nanny state government should run everything for them

this then results in the Canadian economy becoming moribund

Socialist nanny police state Canada simply cannot compete with the free enterprise in America

and this is why the Chinese Communists have taken control of Canada

because Canada needs the Chinese to prop Canada up, in the face of an increasingly protectionist America

That’s at least largely true. You label it as a matter of Protestant individualism, Luther’s natural inner light or Knox’s removal of the priestly boundary between lay people and direct access to scripture and God, etc. Basically you’re highlighting that the Roman Catholic Church retained the Roman Empire and used religion as a form of control — hearts and minds.  Elizabeth the First, and yes, later on under William and the Georges, Britain established her independence from Rome, which furthered her iself-determination and economic development.  Just keep in mind that Britain was and is another empire which spread colonialism and control.  The Americans broke away from it and established a very successful democracy, but the US has also functioned as a de facto empire and imposed her own Pax Romana.

Look I’m a realist.  All of these powers are compromises. You can’t avoid or deny a certain amount of sacrifice for the defence of the regime.  However, some powers have more liberty than others.  In the end, the Brits took over the running of the Roman Empire from the French to a large extent.  They conquered then preserved it.  That’s Canada.

In WW2 the Americans rescued the British and Roman empires from fascism.  Rome was basically taken over temporarily by the Nazis and fascists: Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, and puppet Vichy.

Today Britain has had to assert her independence again from Europe, which has fallen to German-based green, socialist totalitarianism, resulting in European energy captivity to foreign powers.

Canada is sitting in between Chinese totalitarian surveillance state capitalism (erosion of free speech, public safety mandates, centrally planned economy); United Nations global pacts; and U.S. economic and social influences through USMCA, Five Eyes, and NORAD-NATO military security agreements.

The current Canadian federal government simply doesn’t have the knowledge, power, and sophistication to keep out foreign control.  Trudeau has foolishly, perhaps somewhat unwittingly, abdicated Canadian sovereignty and allowed China to manipulate and undermine our democracy.  We knew we couldn’t keep the US at bay, but the truth of the matter is that only the US can assure Canadian independence from China.  Perhaps even that is no longer possible.  About half of the US is embracing UN control (which is heavily influenced by China), including Biden to a large extent.

Canada is now mostly a socialist centrally planned jurisdiction of the UN.  Trudeau is a kind of UN Petain.  He repeats UN platitudes on public health, global warming initiatives, and other top-down imposed views.  Canada is now beholden to a number of UN agreements. We don’t know the extent of Chinese infiltration in our institutions, but it appears that the public is accepting weak assurances from the government.  Biden’s government is also looking the other way, but at least the US has maintained more independence from the UN and China than Canada.

I’m just not sure Canada is best served as a separate nation state from the US anymore.  We still have less violence and better overall public health outcomes than the US, but both of those areas are in decline.  I always feel like Canadian independence is precarious, somewhat illusory, and comes at great expense.  During the pandemic Canada felt too totalitarian, and I’m not sure our liberal-democracy could withstand another similar crisis.

 

Edited April 1 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

That’s at least largely true. You label it as a matter of Protestant individualism, Luther’s natural inner light or Knox’s removal of the priestly boundary between lay people and direct access to scripture and God, etc. Basically you’re highlighting that the Roman Catholic Church retained the Roman Empire and used religion as a form of control — hearts and minds. 

I  view it more in constitutional terms

the Roman Pope was God's representative on earth

that Pope then anointed your King to be God's representative on earth in your kingdom

and that was the source of absolute monarchy, a Roman Catholic Kings had absolute power

the Protestant Reformation leads to the assertion that your rights are granted directly from God Himself

so nether the Pope, nor the King, nor the government, can take your rights away

and if they try to, you have justification to overthrow that tyranny

this is the basis for consent of the governed, the foundation of the modern liberal state

and this is what made Britain into the global Hegemon

and then when America became even more liberal than Britain, America supplanted Britain as the Hegemon

the freer the country, the richer & more powerful it will become

the more the tyrannical the country, the more its economy & society are crippled

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

I’m just not sure Canada is best served as a separate nation state from the US anymore.

except America doesn't want Canada to join the United States

America doesn't need to make Canada into the 51st state

America has total domination over Canada without having to annex Canada

America is not looking to add 38 million Canadians to the Union

quite the opposite, America has in fact begun to keep Canada ever more at arms length

America wants the border between America & Canada, and America wants that border reinforced

Canada is no longer viewed as being a partner, Canada is now viewed as being a competitor

which again, is why Canada is being driven into the arms of  Beijing to try to compensate 

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

 I always feel like Canadian independence is precarious, somewhat illusory, and comes at great expense. 

I think Canadians are going to be in for a rude awakening in the not too distant future

Canadians are going to wake up one day to discover :

yes, Canada, you are a proxy for the Chinese Communists now

no, Canada, China is not supplanting America as the Hegemon

so, Canada, you have picked the wrong side, you have picked the losing side

and now America is actually hostile towards you, America does not trust nor like you anymore

you are in no man's land, and Xi Jinping has you by the balls there

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

The current Canadian federal government simply doesn’t have the knowledge, power, and sophistication to keep out foreign control.  Trudeau has foolishly, perhaps somewhat unwittingly, abdicated Canadian sovereignty and allowed China to manipulate and undermine our democracy.  We knew we couldn’t keep the US at bay, but the truth of the matter is that only the US can assure Canadian independence from China.  Perhaps even that is no longer possible.  About half of the US is embracing UN control (which is heavily influenced by China), including Biden to a large extent.

I would say that Canada, ever dominated by the Liberals, drank the Communist Kool-Aid a long time ago

Canada, in fear & loathing of American freedom, has been making itself into a Chinese proxy going back decades

Trudeau is just carrying on with his father's work from the 1970's

court the Communists to try to leverage America somehow, is not something new 

the only difference now, is that the plan is very deeply entrenched at this point

Canada bet on China, and now Canada is trapped in that no man's land

so you see the Liberals now literally stating that the "Republicans" are enemies of Canada

even tho the Democrats are just a protectionist, the Democrats are not really Canada's friend

Edited April 1 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is now mostly a socialist centrally planned jurisdiction of the UN.  Trudeau is a kind of UN Petain.  He repeats UN platitudes on public health, global warming initiatives, and other top-down imposed views.  Canada is now beholden to a number of UN agreements. We don’t know the extent of Chinese infiltration in our institutions, but it appears that the public is accepting weak assurances from the government.  Biden’s government is also looking the other way, but at least the US has maintained more independence from the UN and China than Canada.

much as I can't help but despise Canadian Petain, the Quisling for the Chinese Communists

I don't view him as being the cause

Trudeau is simply pandering to the mob

the majority of Canadians have now drunk the same pro-China anti-American Kool-aid

so Trudeau is just giving the Canadian electorate what it wants

Canada is the mostly Socialist central planned nanny police state, regardless of Trudeau

because that is what the majority of Canadians believe in now

this is what I call the fake country : the Peoples Republic of Canada, which has no written constitution

[I am Groot]

17 hours ago, Contrarian said:

I will be the lawyer for the Orange Group:

1. The Orange Order has a rich cultural history that has been an important part of Protestant identity and heritage in Ireland and other parts of the world.
2. The organization has been involved in various charitable activities and has raised funds for a range of good causes.
3. In recent years, some members of the Orange Order have worked to distance themselves from the organization's more extremist elements and promote a more inclusive message.

You can say the same about the Mexican cartels, you shyster.

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

  During the pandemic Canada felt too totalitarian, and I’m not sure our liberal-democracy could withstand another similar crisis.

but it wont matter if another government is in power

the Conservatives will do the same as the Liberals do

because the totalitarianism is not being imposed from above

the totalitarianism is being demanded from below

if you listen to what most Canadians say, most Canadians are in fact totalitarians themselves

the vast majority of Canadians believe that thought crime is a crime. and they want that to be enforced

 

[blackbird]

48 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

You can say the same about the Mexican cartels, you shyster.

Hey man, I think you're drifting way off base on this one.   The Orange Order is a peaceful fraternal organization in Canada.  The Mexican cartels have no similarity.  They are violent organized crime groups.    

The Orange Order would be something like the Protestant version of the Knights of Columbus, which I understand is a peaceful fraternal Catholic order of men.

I am not referring to what went on in Northern Ireland during their civil war.  I don't know all the details of that. 

We should stick to facts and what can be proven.  

When you make false claims about the Orange Order, particularly in Canada, without any foundation you hurt your own credibility.  I would avoid that if I were you.

Edited April 1 by blackbird

[blackbird]

8 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the vast majority of Canadians believe that thought crime is a crime. and they want that to be enforced

Quite true, sadly!

[Dougie93]

16 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Quite true, sadly!

because the majority of Canadians don't believe in God

the Anglo-American systems of governance which made Anglo-America into Western civilization itself

that is all based on the Protestant Reformation

natural rights, inalienable rights, endowed by the Creator, God Himself

the vast majority of Canadians do not believe in that anymore

the vast majority of Canadians believe that your rights are provided only by the government

and if the government wins the election, that government can take your rights away at will

to wit, Canada is no longer a Constitutional Monarchy

Canada has become a pure Democracy, which is the rule of a mob, the tyranny of the majority

William of Orange defended Britons from this mob rule

but now William of Orange has been overthrown in effect

replaced by the Prime Minister as being an elected dictator, de facto absolute monarch

Edited April 1 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

21 minutes ago, blackbird said:

I am not referring to what went on in Northern Ireland during their civil war.  I don't know all the details of that.

it all dates back to 1 July 1690

when France was the global superpower

Roman Catholic absolutist France was the existential threat to the Protestant Glorious Revolution of 1688

in that France could invade Britain to reimpose a Roman Catholic absolute monarchy

and the path to doing that, would be through Ireland

so William of Orange had to preempt the French

by invading Ireland first, to secure it against becoming a French base of operations against England

and this is where the French Catholic proxy James II was forced to engage William of Orange

in the Battle of the Boyne River

on the Banks of the Boyne, is where the Protestants fought for and won their liberal democracy

[Dougie93]

37 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Hey man, I think you're drifting way off base on this one.   The Orange Order is a peaceful fraternal organization in Canada.

bear in mind, the Fenians are always trying to portray themselves as the victims

but the Fenians are not the good guys

the Fenians are the ones who impose Roman Catholic autocracy

the Protestants are the ones who fight for liberal democracy & freedom

the Roman Catholics simply lost the war, their autocracy was defeated by Protestant liberalism

this is how Canadian Confederation was born in 1867

the American Fenians invaded Canada to try to hold it hostage for ransom against Brtiain

the only way they could do that is if the French & Irish Catholics joined them in rising up against the Crown

but the French & Irish Catholics in Canada didn't do that

the French & Irish Catholics in Canada actually chose Protestant liberalism over a Papist tyranny

Edited April 1 by Dougie93

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

the Brits took over the running of the Roman Empire from the French to a large extent.  They conquered then preserved it.  That’s Canada.

I agree with your post generally.  I believe you know what is going on.  

But I think Quebec has a large amount of control of Canada through the PMs and Liberals they elect.  This is having a negative effect on Canada.  They oppose the energy industry in Alberta, oppose fracking and LNG industry, oppose pipelines,  and other things.

Edited April 1 by blackbird

[blackbird]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

bear in mind, the Fenians are always trying to portray themselves as the victims

but the Fenians are not the good guys

the Fenians are the ones who impose Roman Catholic autocracy

the Protestants are the ones who fight for liberal democracy & freedom

the Roman Catholics simply lost the war, their autocracy was defeated by Protestant liberalism

this is how Canadian Confederation was born in 1867

the American Fenians invaded Canada to try to hold it hostage for ransom against Brtiain

the only way they could do that is if the French & Irish Catholics joined them in rising up against the Crown

but the French & Irish Catholics in Canada didn't do that

the French & Irish Catholics in Canada actually chose Protestant liberalism over a Papist tyranny

Excellent point!

[Dougie93]

20 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Excellent point!

in His ministry together

the light over Damascus is the light of civilization itself

“Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law”

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/const/page-12.html

[Dougie93]

22 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

As a Catholic with Scott’s-Irish background

you can't be a Scots-Irish Roman Catholic

"Scots-Irish" is an American term

translated back into British, "Scots-Irish" literally means Ulster Scots

the "Scots-Irish" are the Ulster Scots Protestants of America, the American Orangemen

[Dougie93]

22 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

As a Catholic with Scott’s-Irish background

if you are a Roman Catholic of mixed Scots & Irish descent

that makes you a Jacobite

you are not a Lowland Scot

you are a Highland Scot

and this is your anthem therein

Loch Lomond