What are your thoughts on the Orange Order in Canada?

[I am Groot]

The Orange Order were and are a group of rabid and often violent Protestant bigots in Ulster. Its Canadian branch was much the same with less violence but has naturally modified its beliefs over the past fifty years. At the moment I don't really care about them one way or another.

 

[I am Groot]

10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

it's not a cultural issue

William Prince of Orange founded the modern liberal British state in the Glorious Revolution of 1688

He was a foreigner seized upon by religious fanatics who hated Catholics to help them usurp the legitimate King of England.

[I am Groot]

34 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

If not for the British Army coming to the defence of the Loyalists, PIRA would have wiped the Orangemen out

Which would have been no great loss...

[Contrarian]

5 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

The Orange Order were and are a group of rabid and often violent Protestant bigots in Ulster. Its Canadian branch was much the same with less violence but has naturally modified its beliefs over the past fifty years. At the moment I don't really care about them one way or another.

 

I will be the lawyer for the Orange Group:

1. The Orange Order has a rich cultural history that has been an important part of Protestant identity and heritage in Ireland and other parts of the world.
2. The organization has been involved in various charitable activities and has raised funds for a range of good causes.
3. In recent years, some members of the Orange Order have worked to distance themselves from the organization's more extremist elements and promote a more inclusive message.

Edited March 31 by Contrarian
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[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, I am Groot said:

He was a foreigner seized upon by religious fanatics who hated Catholics to help them usurp the legitimate King of England.

Canadian Confederation itself was founded by a foreigner in fear & loathing of Roman Catholics

the German Queen Victoria and HM Loyalists defending Canada from the Fenians in 1866

leading to Confederation on 1 July 1867, in the panic that ensued in the face of supposed American invasion

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Which would have been no great loss...

well I of course sided with my Commander-in-Chief HM The Queen & the British Army

but if you support PIRA against the Crown, that is your prerogative I suppose

[Contrarian]

13 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

I will be the lawyer for the Orange Group:In recent years, some members of the Orange Order have worked to distance themselves from the organization's more extremist elements and promote a more inclusive message.

/ 2

The Orange Order celebrates Protestant culture and history, including the role of William of Orange in securing Protestant freedoms. This can be seen as a positive aspect as it promotes pride in one's heritage and history.

• I read enough, true believers, what else is to know, best of luck if you go in there. 

Edited March 31 by Contrarian
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[Contrarian]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

As a Catholic with Scott’s-Irish background and a British parent, and as someone who has studied the history of the treatment of Catholics over British history, I think I can weigh in on this. My grandfather remembers a very Protestant Toronto where there were signs in stores barring Catholics from employment.  Catholics couldn’t own property and didn’t have voting rights for a long time in Britain.  Canada was more progressive because Confederation accepted the Catholic historic reality of the residents of Quebec, Acadia, and Francophone communities as far west as Manitoba and even Alberta.  It took a long time, but the British Commonwealth ended discrimination against Catholics.  There are no discriminatory racial and religious policies in England and English Canada today.  The Anglican Church is part of British culture and Canadian culture.  It is de-emphasized across Canada and there is no prayer in public schools.

Britain ushered in bans on slavery before just about every other country, including the United States.  No doubt there is tremendous cultural value and meaning in recognizing our British cultural heritage, including recognizing William of Orange and associated societies. Do NOT cancel or heap accusations of discrimination against the Orange Order.  Enough of cancel culture and rewriting history.  

Thanks for sharing brother Zeitgeist. We do not agree on many things, but is important to listen to opposite views. 

(=)

Edited March 31 by Contrarian
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[blackbird]

7 hours ago, Contrarian said:

/ 2

The Orange Order celebrates Protestant culture and history, including the role of William of Orange in securing Protestant freedoms. This can be seen as a positive aspect as it promotes pride in one's heritage and history.

• I read enough, true believers, what else is to know, best of luck if you go in there. 

That's why debating history is a losing proposition.  It just goes around in circles with no solution.  Who did this or did that doesn't really prove what is right or true.  I have tried to use history as an argument at times, but history by itself does not prove who is right or wrong.  It is a weak argument.  The only thing useful about history is it can be used to show "by their deeds ye shall know them" kind of thing.  Then the other side will point to the bad deeds done by your side.  Then it become difficult to prove who is right.  

That's why I prefer to discuss the Bible because that is the where truth comes from.   But if you are one who does not believe there is any real basis for truth, then of course it is impossible to come to agreement.  That is why the liberals lose the debate because their only claim is man's wisdom, not God's.  They don't like it when someone refers to God's wisdom such as his written word because they don't have a leg to stand on.  As a believer in God and his written revelation, I can't see the wisdom of using human reasoning.  It has no basis and is only the ideas of fallen, corrupt men.

They dismiss Bible belief as "religious fanaticism".  But secular humanism is fine with liberals.

Edited April 1 by blackbird

[Dougie93]

3 hours ago, blackbird said:

 I would think the Orange Order is more in line with civilized, traditional values than liberalism in today's world.

what is bizarre, is how Canadians on this forum,  who  constantly profess to represent Canada

are so filled with hatred against our Crown, that they literally support the PIRA

bearing in mind, that the PIRA terrorized the Catholics in Ulster far more than the Orange

it was the Catholics who got kneecapped by their own Republican Army

[Contrarian]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

what is bizarre, is how Canadians on this forum,  who  constantly profess to represent Canada

are so filled with hatred against our Crown, that they literally support the PIRA

bearing in mind, that the PIRA terrorized the Catholics in Ulster far more than the Orange

it was the Catholics who got kneecapped by their own Republican Army

Who is filled against hatred of the Crown?

I respect the Crown and will rather bow my head down next to a King than a communist from the FSB.

Please, do not insult my loyalty. 

Edited March 31 by Contrarian
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[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

Who is filled against hatred of the Crown?

I respect the Crown and will rather bow my head down next to a King than a communist from the FSB.

Please, do not insult my loyalty. 

I've already said that I mistook you for a Fenian because you attacked me for being an Orangemen

you were just some random avatar coming onto the forum out of the blue

once I had determined that you were not a Fenian, but in fact from Eastern Europe, I had no quarrel with you

bear in mind, I served in the Cold War to free you from Soviet Bolshevism

I am not your enemy

[Contrarian]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I've already said that I mistook you for a Fenian because you attacked me for being an Orangemen

you were just some random avatar coming onto the forum out of the blue

once I had determined that you were not a Fenian, but in fact from Eastern Europe, I had no quarrel with you

bear in mind, I served in the Cold War to free you from Soviet Bolshevism

I am not your enemy

1. While I respect the service in the Cold War and the sacrifices made for the country, I don't think it's productive or fair to assume that all people from Eastern Europe share the same views or owe you a debt of gratitude.
2. Some of us are new servants to the King, but the loyality is there. So, what makes you, a loud mouth telling me I am not qualified?! Difference of opinion?! 

Edited March 31 by Contrarian

[blackbird]

17 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

what is bizarre, is how Canadians on this forum,  who  constantly profess to represent Canada

are so filled with hatred against our Crown, that they literally support the PIRA

bearing in mind, that the PIRA terrorized the Catholics in Ulster far more than the Orange

it was the Catholics who got kneecapped by their own Republican Army

You seem to have a lot of knowledge of parts of history, which is good.   History is such a broad topic that it is impossible for anyone to know everything about it.  I never knew what a Fenian was until I just looked it up.  Interesting.

History is interesting, but again I can't emphasize enough that the Bible is far more important to know, especially the New Testament.  

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Contrarian said:

1. While I respect the service in the Cold War and the sacrifices made for the country, I don't think it's productive or fair to assume that all people from Eastern Europe share the same views or owe you a debt of gratitude.
2. Some of us are new servants to the King, but the loyality is there. So, what makes you, a loud mouth telling me I am not qualified?! Difference of opinion?! 

you seem determined to quarrel with me no matter what I say

I respond to your lunatic paranoid delusions in good faith, giving you the benefit of the doubt

yet you will try to twist everything I say into some sort of "attack" against you

which you then employ as a rubric to launch into defamatory attacks against me

I never questioned your loyalty to the King

because at this point, I am not even loyal to the King

I really couldn't care less about the Crown of Canada anymore

you are the Canadian now,  I am the American

I hand ridiculous Chinese Communist traitor Canada over to you,  I wash my hands of it

 

 

[Contrarian]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

I respond to your lunatic paranoid delusions in good faith, giving you the benefit of the doubt

yet you will try to twist everything I say into some sort of "attack" against you

which you then employ as a rubric to launch into defamatory attacks against me

I never questioned your loyalty to the King

You are an OK man, if you quit the booze, might as well, leave something behind, if not, then we argue, like dogs in the gutter. 

[blackbird]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

because at this point, I am not even loyal to the King

I really couldn't care less about the Crown of Canada anymore

you are the Canadian now,  I am the American

I hand ridiculous Chinese Communist traitor Canada over to you,  I wash my hands of it

Don't give up on Canada or the Constitutional Monarchy.  It is still a very good thing and better than the rest of the world.   It is probably the only thing many people from all parties can agree on.  Although we have a growing number who seem to want to get rid of it.  I don't know what would replace it.  It might be a disaster.

Edited March 31 by blackbird

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You seem to have a lot of knowledge of parts of history, which is good.   History is such a broad topic that it is impossible for anyone to know everything about it.  I never knew what a Fenian was until I just looked it up.  Interesting.

History is interesting, but again I can't emphasize enough that the Bible is far more important to know, especially the New Testament.  

Western civilization as we know it was birthed by Martin Luther

liberalism itself, was the revolution against Roman Catholic autocracy

William Prince of Orange is our bulwark against the Harlot of Babylon in Rome

defender of our God given rights : no man nor office between us and Jesus of Nazareth

[Dougie93]

11 minutes ago, blackbird said:

 It is still a very good thing and better than the rest of the world. 

nonsense

Canada is a frozen Chinese Communist GULAG now, an iron curtain against American freedom

lunatic Canadians spewing their fear loathing & resentment against the light of civilization itself

in the name of Bolshvism imposed from Beijing by way of their proxies in Ottawa

the gates are overrun, the barbarians have taken Canada

fall back to the temple;  Declaration of Independence preamble

[Dougie93]

46 minutes ago, blackbird said:

History is interesting, but again I can't emphasize enough that the Bible is far more important to know, especially the New Testament.  

see how even Zeitgeist, a Jacobite, is coming to the light now 

as he is confronted by the Whore of Babylon set upon his neck

he can no longer tolerate man nor office between him and the Almighty

we impose nothing upon him

but we must welcome him to our ranks

love thine enemies, as by these means, they will come to overthrow their own Pope in Rome

the Papist proxy Trudeau in Ottawa has removed the veil from their eyes

praise the Lord

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Contrarian said:

You are an OK man

never mind me

see the Savior like a mountain at my back

tho I am a sinner, the Almighty is in the room behind me

don't come to me

come to Jesus

He will save you

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, Contrarian said:

1. While William of Orange did play a role in shaping Canada's political landscape, the claim that the Orangemen were the sole founders of Canada is an oversimplification.
2. The Treaty of Paris in 1763 was not solely based on the Glorious Revolution and the Act of Union, but rather a result of various historical events and negotiations involving multiple parties.
3. The cultural makeup of Canada is complex, now, in 2023, and cannot be reduced to a single historical event or figure, is my opinion.

I think what Dougie is getting at, and I calmly lay down palms for this fact, is that the crucible of what created bi-cultural and even multicultural Canada was laid out by the Brits from that era, culminating in the MacDonald-Cartier compromise of Confederation.  British North America enshrines francophone language and religious rights (the Roman Empire) in the Canadian BNA Act, Treaty of Westminster, and eventually the Canadian Constitution.  Canadian Constitutional Monarchy enshrines the union of Rome and Protestantism. In fact, the BNA protects both for all time.  That is the very essence and genius of Canada.  Make no mistake, however, Judeo-Christian God (and Muslim) is underpinning it.  Indigenous spirituality and a sense of the sacred land is enshrined through treaties constitutionally.  Tear down any of that and Canada falls.  Canada is also incredibly outward-looking and multicultural, very cosmopolitan.  Those are all great virtues that must not disappear beneath “Post-National State” China-UN central planning.  

[-TSS-]

This is one of the examples where you can say that leave your problems in your own country and don't bring them with you to the new country. 

[Dougie93]

12 minutes ago, -TSS- said:

This is one of the examples where you can say that leave your problems in your own country and don't bring them with you to the new country. 

except the problem in Ulster was the salvation of Canada

when the Irish Fenians, the proto-IRA, invaded Canada in 1866

Irish republican veterans of the American Civil War formed a Brigade of infantry

they marched into the Canada from Niagara Falls

the recently raised Queen's Own Rifles of Canada, Loyalist Orangemen to the bone

were sent by paddle ferry, from Toronto, to intercept the Fenians across the lake at Ridgeway

now, the Americans were battle hardened veterans of the worst conflict in human history to date

the Queen's Own Rifles of Canada were Militia from Toronto, having never heard a shot fired in anger

so the Americans easily routed the Queen's Own Rifles, it was a walkover for the Americans

none the less, the panic that ensued in the wake of the defeat

is what incited Canadian Confederation just a year later in July of 1867

Ridgeway was the formation war of Canadian Confederation

tactical defeat, but strategic victory for Canada in the end

after serving with the Queen's Own in the battle

Alexander Muir wrote Canada's original anthem : The Maple Leaf Forever

in honour of the fallen at Ridgeway

inspired by the tree which stood at Maple Cottage,  on Laing Street in Toronto

[Dougie93]

and here it is to this day

Maple Cottage on Laing Street in Toronto

birthplace of the nation