What are your thoughts on the Orange Order in Canada?

[Contrarian]

I promised @Dougie93 we will do this thread. 

It comes to a point when you are at war with someone, one needs to understand their view. 

This is my BIAS, I welcome @Dougie93 and any members to fight me on what I have, I am willing to change my mind:

1. The Orange Order is a fraternal organization with roots in Northern Ireland that promotes Protestantism and British identity.
2. The organization has a long history of sectarianism and has been accused of discrimination against Catholics and other minority groups.
3. In Canada, the Orange Order has been involved in numerous controversies, including clashes with Catholic communities and opposition to bilingualism and multiculturalism.
4. While the Orange Order claims to support the principles of democracy and freedom, their actions have often contradicted these values.
5. It is possible to acknowledge the historical significance of the Orange Order while also acknowledging their problematic actions and beliefs.
6. As a radical centrist, it is important to listen to diverse perspectives and seek to understand the complex issues surrounding the Orange Order.
7. While the organization may have some positive aspects, such as promoting community engagement and charity work, it is important to recognize their problematic history and beliefs.
8. Blindly supporting the Orange Order or any organization without critically examining their actions and beliefs is not a productive approach.
9. Ultimately, as Canadians (new or old), we should strive to promote inclusion, respect for diversity, and a commitment to democratic values.
10. Engaging in constructive dialogue and finding common ground is key to addressing controversial issues like the Orange Order in a productive and respectful manner.
    
    

Edited March 31 by Contrarian
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[Legato]

So that's why they say Orange Man bad.

[Contrarian]

Just now, Legato said:

So that's why they say Orange Man bad.

Yes, well, the left wing media <-- just adapted. 

The sheep that is available out there, all they need is a statement and is enough.

[blackbird]

"An important and multifunctional institution in Canada, the Orange Order provided significant mutual aid. Financial support was provided to members during times of illness or unemployment, and, upon a member’s death, the Order often alleviated the financial burden on widows and orphans by covering funeral costs and defraying burial fees. Lodges were sites of social activity, providing members with the chance to catch up on gossip, share a meal and build networks, all of which were especially important in rural areas that had little in the way of established institutions. Through such activities, the Orange Order and its lodges helped to cultivate a sense of community for settlers and farmers as well as for urban dwellers. Fraternal association was reinforced through the rituals, ceremonies, initiations, passwords and famous Orange sashes worn in council sessions and parades."

Orange Order in Canada | The Canadian Encyclopedia

It appears the Orange Order is simply a fraternal organization of people with similar religious and political views. They do not engage in election campaigns as a party or raise money for such a purpose.  But they hold beliefs just as the Liberals and NDP hold their own beliefs.  Possibly similar to the Knights of Columbus in the Catholic Church and other fraternal organizations.   I feel in a free and democratic society they have the right to their own beliefs, freedom of religion, and freedom of association just as the liberals and NDP do.  It is not a crime to be Protestant in Canada.  That is just part of freedom of religion.  If they disagree with liberalism, progressivism, Romanism, that is their right.  That is not a form of extremism.  It is belief in the traditional family structure and society.  What is extremism is the forcing of woke ideology and progressivism by liberals and left on society through laws and government control and on our educational institutions.  I would think the Orange Order is more in line with civilized, traditional values than liberalism in today's world.

Edited March 31 by blackbird

[Zeitgeist]

As a Catholic with Scott’s-Irish background and a British parent, and as someone who has studied the history of the treatment of Catholics over British history, I think I can weigh in on this. My grandfather remembers a very Protestant Toronto where there were signs in stores barring Catholics from employment.  Catholics couldn’t own property and didn’t have voting rights for a long time in Britain.  Canada was more progressive because Confederation accepted the Catholic historic reality of the residents of Quebec, Acadia, and Francophone communities as far west as Manitoba and even Alberta.  It took a long time, but the British Commonwealth ended discrimination against Catholics.  There are no discriminatory racial and religious policies in England and English Canada today.  The Anglican Church is part of British culture and Canadian culture.  It is de-emphasized across Canada and there is no prayer in public schools.

Britain ushered in bans on slavery before just about every other country, including the United States.  No doubt there is tremendous cultural value and meaning in recognizing our British cultural heritage, including recognizing William of Orange and associated societies. Do NOT cancel or heap accusations of discrimination against the Orange Order.  Enough of cancel culture and rewriting history.  

Edited March 31 by Zeitgeist

[blackbird]

13 hours ago, Contrarian said:

While the Orange Order claims to support the principles of democracy and freedom, their actions have often contradicted these values.

First I admit I am coming from a Protestant perspective.  What is your background or perspective?  Were you baptized in a certain denomination or come from a family with a certain belief system?

The Orange Order is not a violent organization.  It is a fraternal organization of like-minded Protestants.   If you are not aware of the violent history of Romanism, just look at the history of the actions of the Irish Republican Army in north Ireland with the bombings and killings in the past.  The IRA fought against the Protestant British part of Northern Ireland with the aim of making northern Ireland a part of the Romanist Republic of Ireland.   A large number of people in Northern Ireland are Protestant and wish to remain as part of the United Kingdom. 

Ireland did not support Britain in World War I.

"In 1916, Irish republicans took the opportunity of the ongoing war to proclaim an independent Irish Republic and launch an armed rebellion against British rule in Dublin, which Germany attempted to help. In addition, Britain's intention to impose conscription in Ireland in 1918 provoked widespread resistance and as a result remained unimplemented.

After the end of the Great War, Irish republicans won the Irish general election of 1918 and declared Irish independence. This led to the Irish War of Independence (1919–1922), fought between the Irish Republican Army (IRA) and British forces. Ex-servicemen fought for both sides. During the War of Independence, the British government partitioned Ireland. This phase of conflict ended with the Anglo-Irish Treaty which split Sinn Féin and the IRA, leading to the Irish Civil War (1922–1923) between pro-treaty and anti-treaty forces. The pro-treaty forces were victorious, with most of the island becoming the Irish Free State."

Ireland and World War I - Wikipedia

Edited March 31 by blackbird

[Contrarian]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

First I declare I admit I am coming from a Protestant perspective.  What is your background or perspective?  Were you baptized in a certain denomination or come from a family with a certain belief system?

The Orange Order is not a violent organization.  It is a fraternal organization of like-minded Protestants.   If you are not aware of the violent history of Romanism, just look at the history of the actions of the Irish Republican Army in north Ireland with the bombings and killings in the past.  The IRA fought against the Protestant British with the aim of making northern Ireland a part of Romanist Republic of Ireland.  But that is a drop in the bucket compared to the wars in Europe and the genocides that have been committed in the name of religion.

1. One should approach discussions with an open mind, willing to consider multiple perspectives.
2. One should avoid making sweeping generalizations about entire groups of people based on the actions of a few.
3. One should strive to find common ground and work towards solutions that benefit everyone, rather than perpetuating division and animosity.
   
   My Hypocrisy

Edited March 31 by Contrarian
edit desugn

[CdnFox]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

where there were signs in stores barring Catholics from employment.  Catholics couldn’t own property and didn’t have voting rights for a long time in Britain.

I didn't know that. Interesting.

[blackbird]

31 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

One should strive to find common ground and work towards solutions that benefit everyone, rather than perpetuating division and animosity.

Unfortunately that is the claim that one side often uses to silence others who don't agree with them on everything.  For instance, the PM of all people said evangelical Christians are the worst kind of Canadians.  He may have said that before he became PM, I don't know.  I think he also referred to people who disagree with him as "flat earthers".   When you are Prime Minister who says things like that and causes major divisions, you have sown the seeds for major division and animosity. If our leaders are doing that, what hope is there?

Edited March 31 by blackbird

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, CdnFox said:

I didn't know that. Interesting.

Yes but I oppose cancelling such organizations without a damn good reason.  I vehemently oppose slavery but oppose taking down Robert E. Lee’s statue.  Add plaques with new voices and perspectives, but I almost always oppose bans on expression and social organizations, unless they are of a terrorist nature.  Plotting and/or carrying out violence is NOT okay, but that’s not what the Orange Order does.

[Contrarian]

1 minute ago, blackbird said:

Unfortunately that is the claim that one side often uses to silence others who don't agree with them on everything.  For instance, the PM of all people said evangelical Christians are the worst kind of Canadians.  

Yes, but your journey and marketing should not depend on a PM, is my arrogant statement. 

We live in capitalism here, anyone can expose their idea, and then if it goes viral you make the money.

Just look at Kim Kardashian, a low life garbage, marketing however made more money for her, even more than than intelligence agents that love America. 

Not sure, who is controlling all this, but if they don't shape up, we will have a Bernie Sanders and people will understand what ''freedom is about''. 

[blackbird]

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Catholics couldn’t own property and didn’t have voting rights for a long time in Britain.

Yes, that could be.  But that may have been an unfortunate result of the centuries of struggle to break free from the brutal totalitarian rule of Rome.  Thousands of Protestants were burned at the stake or put to death by the Romanist Bloody Mary in Britain too.  History was brutal.  There is no such history where everyone was treated fairly and civility.  Romanism ruled with an iron fist for 1,500 years including 400 years of the Holy Roman Inquisition when thousands were tortured, burned at the stake or imprisoned or whipped.  Jesus was a poor, humble person, who wore a few rags as clothing.  The Popes became rich, wore rich garments and lived in wealth and were carried about as royalty.  They ruled the Empire and appointed Kings and rulers.  Nothing like Christ.  This had no resemblance to the early Christians in the first 300 years who were thrown into the lion's den in Rome.  That's just the way it was.  But most people don't know what went on.  The dark side of history is kept secret or not told.  Many think the dark side should not be mentioned if it reflects poorly on one's own side or belief system.

Edited April 1 by blackbird

[CdnFox]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes but I oppose cancelling such organizations without a damn good reason.  I vehemently oppose slavery but oppose taking down Robert E. Lee’s statue.  Add plaques with new voices and perspectives, but I almost always oppose bans on expression and social organizations, unless they are of a terrorist nature.  Plotting and/or carrying out violence is NOT okay, but that’s not what the Orange Order does.

Yeah, i'm on the same page there. I just didn't realize it got that bad for catholics in Britian.

On the other hand - Europe. I mean - pick ANY group and wait long enough and they'll get thrown to a lion or burned at the stake at some point.

[Zeitgeist]

8 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Yes, that could be.  But that may have been an unfortunate result of the centuries of struggle to break free from the brutal totalitarian rule of Rome.  Thousands of Protestants were burned at the stake or put to death by the Romanist Bloody Mary in Britain too.  History was brutal.  There is no such history where everyone was treated fairly and civily.  Romanism ruled with an iron fist in for 1,500 years including 400 years of the Holy Roman Inquisition when thousands were tortured, burned at the stake or imprisoned or whipped.  That's just the way it was.  But most people don't know what went on.  The dark side of history is kept secret or not told.  Many think the dark side should not be mentioned if it reflects poorly on one's own side or belief system.

Yes both sides acted badly.  Even as a Catholic I can see a strong argument for England breaking away from Roman control, because of problems in that Church: schisms, indulgences, sketchy popes, Spanish Inquisition, etc.  All of Christian Europe was involved in the Crusades.  Both Muslims and Christians murdered and mistreated people. I personally support the Catholic Church over any other (including the church of Henry), but no one can deny that Britain prospered under Elizabeth the First and that the English speaking peoples have largely been a huge civilizing force for the better, in spite of colonial excesses. I’d rather be a British subject than a citizen of almost anywhere else.  I’m not even sure Post-National Canada is better politically than Britain anymore. I think that Canada has declined under the current federal government.

Edited March 31 by Zeitgeist

[blackbird]

56 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

One should avoid making sweeping generalizations about entire groups of people based on the actions of a few.

Unfortunately, in history, it has been large groups such as Romanism, that through the powerful clergy, has imposed a brutal kind of totalitarian system.  Most people are blind to what is happening in the world.  Romanism is not as benign and harmless as you might think.  Many of them are also globalists and control the government.  They imposed the policies on Canadians which we now have, such as carbon taxes, the fictitious war on climate change, progressivism, and globalism.

[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

As a Catholic with Scott’s-Irish background and a British parent, and as someone who has studied the history of the treatment of Catholics over British history, I think I can weigh in on this. My grandfather remembers a very Protestant Toronto where there were signs in stores barring Catholics from employment.  Catholics couldn’t own property and didn’t have voting rights for a long time in Britain.  Canada was more progressive because Confederation accepted the Catholic historic reality of the residents of Quebec, Acadia, and Francophone communities as far west as Manitoba and even Alberta.  It took a long time, but the British Commonwealth ended discrimination against Catholics.  There are no discriminatory racial and religious policies in England and English Canada today.  The Anglican Church is part of British culture and Canadian culture.  It is de-emphasized across Canada and there is no prayer in public schools.

Britain ushered in bans on slavery before just about every other country, including the United States.  No doubt there is tremendous cultural value and meaning in recognizing our British cultural heritage, including recognizing William of Orange and associated societies. Do NOT cancel or heap accusations of discrimination against the Orange Order.  Enough of cancel culture and rewriting history.  

the Orangemen are the founders of Canada

Westminster Parliament on the Hill in Ottawa founded by William Prince of Orange in 1688

but the Catholics in Canada were not abused by the Orangemen

the French & Irish Catholics did not rise up with the Fenians against the Crown in 1866

it wasn't the Orange Order which Quebec waged their Quiet Revolution against

the Revolution Tranquille was against the Roman Catholic Church in Canada

[Contrarian]

9 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the Orangemen are the founders of Canada

Westminster Parliament on the Hill in Ottawa founded by William Prince of Orange in 1688

but the Catholics in Canada were not abused by the Orangemen

the French & Irish Catholics did not rise up with the Fenians against the Crown in 1866

it wasn't the Orange Order which Quebec waged their Quiet Revolution against

the Revolution Tranquille was against the Roman Catholic Church in Canada

1. While it is true that William of Orange played a role in shaping the political landscape of Canada, it is a gross oversimplification to claim that the Orangemen were the sole founders of Canada.
2. While it is true that the Orangemen did not specifically abuse Catholics in Canada, it is important to acknowledge that they were at the front leading the agitation. 
3. While it is true that the Quiet Revolution in Québec was primarily a response to the power and influence of the Catholic Church, it is important to recognize that this was just one chapter in Québec's complex history.

Edited March 31 by Contrarian
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[Dougie93]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

The Orange Order is not a violent organization.  It is a fraternal organization of like-minded Protestants.   If you are not aware of the violent history of Romanism, just look at the history of the actions of the Irish Republican Army in north Ireland with the bombings and killings in the past. 

indeed

there were certainly Protestant paramilitaries in Ulster and they were Orangemen

but they were simply forced defend themselves in a vicious Sectarian civil war

against an American & Soviet funded Provisional Irish Republican Army

to be clear, PIRA was the dominant force on the battlefield

if not for the British Army coming to the defence of the Loyalists, PIRA would have wiped the Orangemen out

[Contrarian]

53 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Unfortunately, in history, it has been large groups such as Romanism

If Marcus Aurelius had his way and the Roman Empire would not bow their head to religious fundamentalists, right now humanity would be in space. Yet, here we are arguing over superficially. 

Edited March 31 by Contrarian
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[blackbird]

The 37 year old married man was in a Starbuck cafe in Vancouver with his wife and toddler.  A young man nearby was vaping near his toddler and he asked him not to vape hear the toddler.  The man responded by pulling out a knife and stabbing the 37 year old father in the stomach in front of his wife and toddler.  The father died on the floor in front of his wife and toddler.

The man was arrested but because of our soft-on-crime justice system, which is run mainly by Romanists, the murderer has been charged with second degree murder although he was carrying a knife with him.  One doesn't carry a knife unless one is planning to use it somewhere.  The wife said it should be first degree murder.

He will likely get a light sentence and then get out on parole after half of his sentence because of the soft system, which is controlled largely by Romanism.

Edited March 31 by blackbird

[Contrarian]

3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

The 37 year old married man was in a Starbuck cafe in Vancouver with his wife and toddler.  A young man nearby was vaping near his toddler and he asked him not to vape hear the toddler.  The man responded by pulling out a knife and stabbing the 37 year old father in the stomach in front of his wife and toddler.  The father died on the floor in front of his wife and toddler.

The man was arrested but because of our soft-on-crime justice system, which is run mainly by Romanists, the murderer has been charged with second degree murder although he was carrying a knife with him.  One doesn't carry a knife unless one is planning to use it somewhere.  The wife said it should be first degree murder.

He will likely get a light sentence and then get out on parole after half of his sentence because of the soft system, which is controlled by largely by Romanism.

Excellent, this is what I am talking about, exchange of information even if is BIAS. 

Quality work, trolls pay attention. 😎

Edited March 31 by Contrarian

[blackbird]

10 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

Yet, here we are arguing over superficially. 

Do you call the disastrous laws and governing we have a superficiality?

Violent offenders, many repeat offenders often caught and released the next day and go on to re-offend.

Light sentences for murderers who get out on parole after serving only part of a sentence.

No capital punishment for murders of policemen and other innocent people.  

Government spending millions of dollars around the world on everything under the sun. 

Open borders that let in tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of illegal migrants.  People who were never screened for their backgrounds and possible criminal records.  Or unknown backgrounds because it is not possible to know their history.

Over reaching government control and regulations contributing to the shortage of housing, inflation, and rising costs of living.

Carbon taxes for a fictitious war on climate change.

Neglect of the Canadian Forces ships and aircraft requirements.

Repeated ethics violations/breaking of ethics laws with no consequences.

On and on it goes.

Edited March 31 by blackbird

[Contrarian]

3 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Do you call the disastrous laws and governing we have a superficiality?

Violent offenders, many repeat offenders often caught and released the next day and go on to re-offend.

Light sentences for murderers who get out on parole after serving only part of a sentence.

No capital punishment for murders of policemen and other innocent people.  

Government spending millions of dollars around the world on everything under the sun. 

Open borders that let in tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of illegal migrants.  People who were never screened for their backgrounds and possible criminal records.  Or unknown backgrounds because it is not possible to know their history.

Over reaching government control and regulations contributing to the shortage of housing, inflation, and rising costs of living.

Carbon taxes for a fictitious war on climate change.

Neglect of the Canadian Forces ships and aircraft requirements.

On and on it goes.

Yes, but if one dispatches multiple divisions and people, should be ok?!

How do you think the CBC and CP24 will play those images? 24/7! in my view.

I know you don't care, but politics is about winning, is my view, is not only about ideology. 

Edited March 31 by Contrarian
edit design

[Dougie93]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

  No doubt there is tremendous cultural value and meaning in recognizing our British cultural heritage, including recognizing William of Orange and associated societies. Do NOT cancel or heap accusations of discrimination against the Orange Order.  Enough of cancel culture and rewriting history.  

it's not a cultural issue

William Prince of Orange founded the modern liberal British state in the Glorious Revolution of 1688

which led directly to the Act of Union 1707, the founding of the United Kingdom

and by the liberalism of King William's Parliamentary Supremacy

Great Britain quickly rose to become the most powerful & prosperous nation on earth

which led to the defeat of the French in the Seven Years War

which founded Canada by the Treaty of Paris 1763, the basis of all Canadian constitutional law

Queen Elizabeth II & King Charles III are the descendants of the Prince of Orange

the heirs to the throne of William III

this is not cultural, this is the very foundation of Canada, in legally binding constitutional terms

 

[Contrarian]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

it's not a cultural issue

William Prince of Orange founded the modern liberal British state in the Glorious Revolution of 1688

which led directly to the Act of Union 1707, the founding of the United Kingdom

and by the liberalism of King William's Parliamentary Supremacy

Great Britain quickly rose to become the most powerful & prosperous nation on earth

which led to the defeat of the French in the Seven Years War

which founded Canada by the Treaty of Paris 1763, the basis of all Canadian constitutional law

Queen Elizabeth II & King Charles III are the descendants of the Prince of Orange

the heirs to the throne of William III

this is not cultural, this is the very foundation of Canada, in legally binding constitutional terms

 

1. While William of Orange did play a role in shaping Canada's political landscape, the claim that the Orangemen were the sole founders of Canada is an oversimplification.
2. The Treaty of Paris in 1763 was not solely based on the Glorious Revolution and the Act of Union, but rather a result of various historical events and negotiations involving multiple parties.
3. The cultural makeup of Canada is complex, now, in 2023, and cannot be reduced to a single historical event or figure, is my opinion.