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Posted
.We can ask some question about islam :

* is Islam irrational ?

* is Islam poligamus ?

* is Islam a backward religion ?

* is Islam sees west as an enemy ?

* does islam oppose science, medicine and technical innovations ?

* does islam use primitive religious laws ?

Yes.

We can add many, many more.

Prophet Mohammad said in his time :

' Look and chase after knowledege where ever it springs, even as far as China.'

That means today: provide liberal education for everyone.

Unfortunately, there seems to be a broad lack of liberal education in the Muslim world, and from what I understand an overwhelming number of scholars in Muslim universities are studying the Quoran instead of such things as engineering, science, business, law, etc.

Why some muslim women wear head-scrafs and black chadors ?

Holy Quran says:

' Women must reserve her beauty and sexuality for their husbands only.She must cover her body and hair not to  invoke sexual desires when she is in the public.In modern times we can intrept that women must be chaste and never commit adultery to his husband.The covering for women is optional today.

The Prophet lived in a different time, in a different culture. While I can accept a prohibition on dressing provocatively - most religions agree on this - the need to, in effect, throw a blanket over all women everywhere they go to protect men from their own lust seems ludicrously out of date. And despite your suggestion it is optional most Muslim religious leaderes today seem to demand it. In fact, in Muslim nations ruled under some form of Islamic law it is a requirement and those who do not wear the chador are arrested and severely punished. In places like Saudi Arabia and Iran, religious police patrol the streets and beat women with batons if they see hair or makeup or an ankle showing. That is really very pathetic by any modern or culturally enlightened standard.

Islam as a universal faith

Islam has a universal appeal as christianity.The Holy Quran is the last revelation from god.It never denise old tesnament and the gospel.They are also god's revelation.But holy quran don't comprimise on the idea that Jesus Christ is the son of god and a supreme being will resurect and save humanity.

Yes, but it also regards Christians as in error, and the Quoran contains numerous suggestions that those who are not believers in Islam are valueless and can be harmed or killed at will without any punishment from Allah.

On Non-muslim Minorites

All minorites among muslims remained as they were, retained their faith and customs .

I'm sure the Jews, Christians, and others persecuted in Muslim societies will be happy to hear that. If only your fellow religious followers took it to heart.

On Political Correctness

Islam advocates traditional sexual types .

Yes, as does Christianity. However, homosexuals are not arrested and killed in Christian nations.

Science And Islam:

Revelations of God is the core of science.The science is the sole light and guide of humanity.The science is the path to the kingdom of God and serenity.Without God, science is devoid its meaning and purpose.

Which is probably one of the reasons so many Muslim students are busily studying the Quoran and not science, which in turn is one of the reasons Muslim nations are so backward and poor - except those lucky enough to be sitting on oil deposits. Even those nations, filthy rich, some of them, need to import skilled westerners to run their oil industries. Even after thirty five years of wealth, they still can't run them themselves because they don't have enough skilled workers and engineers.

Turkey is the only islamic country holding westren codes of penalty.Saudi arabia and Iran have islamic laws such as cutting hands and heads for robbery, or throwing stones in public to the women who commits adultery.But they are out dated and brutal forms of punishment.

Glad to hear you say it, and I agree. Unfortunately, in other Muslim nations, the pressure on government is not for enlightened reform, but to radicalize law, to bring it back to the state of Sharia where such things happen. There seems comparatively little political movement within Muslim states to liberalise laws and make punishment and rehabilitationi more humane.

Lastly on Terror And Islam

Muslims are not blood thirsty people.White muslims, black muslims, muslims from asia are normal and decent people, people like every where.

No doubt true, unfortunately, there seems to be an abundance of Muslim clerics who embrace violence and encourage it from their followers, promising them heavenly rewards if they only kill enough infidels.

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

Posted

Dear Argus,

Yes, but it also regards Christians as in error,
So does the Jewish faith, with both of those religions deriding Christians as 'idol-worshippers'.
QUOTE

On Political Correctness

Islam advocates traditional sexual types .

Yes, as does Christianity. However, homosexuals are not arrested and killed in Christian nations.

Some US states still have sodomy laws on the books, but the death penalty isn't applicable...like Saudi Arabia. In China,(not sure how they still view it)it is not admitted to exist, and criminal charges would fall under 'offensive behaviour'.

It has been a while since I read the Koran, but I do believe that there was a passage forbidding sex with animals that you intend to eat.

Would the Special Olympics Committee disqualify kids born with flippers from the swimming events?

Posted
I was watching an islamic show  on Vision tv, and they were using Hitler and Stalin and their deeds, as a examples of western culture, thought and morals.

That's a bit unfair don't you think?

No moreso than those who decry Islam as a religon of hate.

ANY religious text can be interpreted in almost any way the reader sees fit.

Take a look at some of the atrocities which have occured as a result of Chritianity's interpretation of the Bible; The Spanish Inquisition, the Vatican dividing the "New World" between Portugal and Spain, the Witch Hunts, the Crusades, etc etc.

Yes, these all occured quite some time ago, but still, all were a direct result of the existence of Christianity.

ANY religion, in the hands of an extremist, becomes a dangerous thing.

I need another coffee

Posted

Hasan Ali Tokuqin

After reading your questions I have come to the conclusion the Islam religion constitutes or resembles a cult void of individuality.

It is easy to understand why Islam practiced by devout Muslims could easily become troublesome in a modern society.

I don't understand why any government would allow anyone practicing this faith into a modern democratic capitilist country.

Posted
ANY religious text can be interpreted in almost any way the reader sees fit.

ANY religion, in the hands of an extremist, becomes a dangerous thing.

Both, the Bible and the Koran, have hateful parts in them that can be interpreted only one way.

The difference is that Christian clerics have ignored the the ugly parts while Muslim clerics are doing quite the opposite.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder though, and were Christians to evoke some of the more brutal parts for a year or so I think the problem could be solved.

I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I have a hunch that Benedict XVI is inching in that direction.

When a true Genius appears in the World, you may know him by this Sign, that the Dunces are all in confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift

GO IGGY GO!

Posted
I was watching an islamic show  on Vision tv, and they were using Hitler and Stalin and their deeds, as a examples of western culture, thought and morals.

That's a bit unfair don't you think?

One thing's for sure ... if Joseph was in W's shoes, you wouldn't be watching that Islamic show today.

When a true Genius appears in the World, you may know him by this Sign, that the Dunces are all in confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift

GO IGGY GO!

Posted

Islam is not arabic life style.My country, Turkey mostly not arabic.We use latin alphabet.Turkish is rich and old.Women are more free than in the US.As a teacher I can say, we muslim Turks are not suffering from systematic racism and hate, ghetto dwelling, high income gaps.We have the best of human stock in the world, young, strong, healthy and vibrant.Our country is not a desert.We live four seasons and have the best resorts of winter and summer.We don't like capitalism.We have our own social and welfare structure.We have a glorius past and history.Our fore fathers were mighty warriors from caucasia, central asia and iran.

Posted

A comparision between Turkey and the U.S. is at best incomplete. Still, we could notice how the U.S. has become a world power and economic leader with their system of government.

Other comments describing the Bible as hateful are only viewing from afar. The Bible does not have standing orders to conduct a jihad style war, based on killing infidels and getting 70 virgins in paradise if killed while in the jihad. Jesus says blessed are the peacemakers.

Posted
Yes, but it also regards Christians as in error,
So does the Jewish faith, with both of those religions deriding Christians as 'idol-worshippers'.

You get back to me when Jews start blowing us up.

Yes, as does Christianity. However, homosexuals are not arrested and killed in Christian nations.
Some US states still have sodomy laws on the books, but the death penalty isn't applicable...like Saudi Arabia. In China,(not sure how they still view it)it is not admitted to exist, and criminal charges would fall under 'offensive behaviour'.

There are a few such laws still on the books because no politician wants to be the one to propose they be taken off, not in the south anyway, but just about any time one is charged under one of them the law gets struck down.

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

Posted
Islam is not arabic life style.My country, Turkey mostly not arabic.We use latin alphabet.Turkish is rich and old.Women are more free than in the US.As a teacher I can say, we muslim Turks are not suffering from systematic racism and hate, ghetto dwelling, high income gaps.We have the best of human stock in the world, young, strong, healthy and vibrant.Our country is not a desert.We live four seasons and have the best resorts of winter and summer.We don't like capitalism.We have our own social and welfare structure.We have a glorius past and history.Our fore fathers were mighty warriors from caucasia, central asia and iran.

Turkey is probably the most succesful and socially advanced of the Muslim states in the middle east/west asian area. That is because of how Atarurk tried to make it something of a secular country and orient it towards the West. There is a strong revival movement at work, however, wanting to re-introduce Islam into public life as the guiding decision behind all laws and government.

Nevertheless, it lags well behind the West in its state of economic, scientific and social advancement.

"A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley

Posted
Islam is not arabic life style.My country, Turkey mostly not arabic.We use latin alphabet.Turkish is rich and old.Women are more free than in the US.As a teacher I can say, we muslim Turks are not suffering from systematic racism and hate, ghetto dwelling, high income gaps.We have the best of human stock in the world, young, strong, healthy and vibrant.Our country is not a desert.We live four seasons and have the best resorts of winter and summer.We don't like capitalism.We have our own social and welfare structure.We have a glorius past and history.Our fore fathers were mighty warriors from caucasia, central asia and iran.

Turkey is probably the most succesful and socially advanced of the Muslim states in the middle east/west asian area. That is because of how Atarurk tried to make it something of a secular country and orient it towards the West. There is a strong revival movement at work, however, wanting to re-introduce Islam into public life as the guiding decision behind all laws and government.

Nevertheless, it lags well behind the West in its state of economic, scientific and social advancement.

Except for that little hangup about imprisoning reporters for speaking their mind.

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions." --Thomas Jefferson

Posted

Dear Argus,

You get back to me when Jews start blowing us up.
They aren't doing it now because they don't feel they need to. They did resort to terrorism previously, against the British, though. I do agree with most of your assessment of Turkey, but keep in mind that they were the power center of the world for centuries, until the British Empire took over.

As to sharkman's comment...

Jesus says blessed are the peacemakers.
That is the New Testament, more highly regarded by Islam than the Jewish faith, though both call Christians 'idol-worshippers'.

Would the Special Olympics Committee disqualify kids born with flippers from the swimming events?

Posted
After reading your questions I have come to the conclusion the Islam religion constitutes or resembles a cult void of individuality.
I would say the same of Christianity.
I don't understand why any government would allow anyone practicing this faith into a modern democratic capitilist country.
Muslim countries used to be the most economic and scientific advanced societies on earth. They only started to fall behind when the Europeans discovered the Americas and started plundering the continents of their riches. In fact, modern algebra was developed in order to solve mathematical problems created by the rules on inheritance in Koran.

The are many similarities between Oliver Cromwell and Khomeini in Iran. Both used religion as a pretext to over throw a despot that needed to be over thrown. The difference is Cromwell did not last long.

All of the cultural advances that have happened in western society have occurred despite of Christianity - not because of. Christian religious leaders have sought to stifle progress and social change because it violated the holy books in one way or another. From Galileo to stem cells it is all about repression and control.

Yet, today we see leaders like Bush and the Christian Fundamentalists trying hand control back to the church. Frankly, I see little difference between Pat Robertson and Bin Laden - both are religious fundamentalists that seek to use the power of the state to repress others. For me Robertson is more frightening because there are way too many people in North America who think this guy makes sense (including many in the Conservative Party of Canada). Laws passed by religious extremists in the CPC are likely to affect me - much more so than the grossly exaggerated terrorist threat from Bin Laden and his Muslim followers.

To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.

Posted
For me Robertson is more frightening because there are way too many people in North America who think this guy makes sense (including many in the Conservative Party of Canada). Laws passed by religious extremists in the CPC are likely to affect me - much more so than the grossly exaggerated terrorist threat from Bin Laden and his Muslim followers.

Do you have any proof that many people in the CPC think he is right? And I would prefer you not use the term Religious Extremist while describing members of the CPC and the passing of bills.

Economic Left/Right: 3.25

Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.26

I want to earn money and keep the majority of it.

Posted
Do you have any proof that many people in the CPC think he is right? And I would prefer you not use the term Religious Extremist while describing members of the CPC and the passing of bills.
Some conservative candidates are extremist evangelical christians with views similar to Pat Robertson (note I said some - not all and I did not say Harper was one of these). My point is: I do not see Islam as a threat in itself - I see all religious people who use their beliefs as an excuse to repress others as a threat.

In other words, Christians have no business criticizing Islam because some of the followers of Christianity are almost as bad. In both cases, it is the people to prevert the teachings of the religions that should be criticized - not the religion itself.

To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.

Posted
My point is: I do not see Islam as a threat in itself - I see all religious people who use their beliefs as an excuse to repress others as a threat.

In other words, Christians have no business criticizing Islam because some of the followers of Christianity are almost as bad. In both cases, it is the people to prevert the teachings of the religions that should be criticized - not the religion itself.

Even you, Sparhawk, can only go as far as to say some of the followers of Christianity are ALMOST as bad. But you use Osama as an overblown threat from the Muslim side, why not Iran, whose leader recently called for Israel to be wiped off the map. We know Robertson is a nutbar, but has he or any Christian leader called for a country to be exterminated? No. I noticed, however that there was much more outrage at Robertson's Chavez comments than idiots who call for Bush's assassination.

Posted
All of the cultural advances that have happened in western society have occurred despite of Christianity - not because of. Christian religious leaders have sought to stifle progress and social change because it violated the holy books in one way or another. From Galileo to stem cells it is all about repression and control.

I liked this part.

Progress, in the west, has come only when the church has been made to STFU and MYOB in spheres of science and politics and commerce. This seems to be a process that many parts of the Muslim world are struggling with.

-k

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻ Friendly forum facilitator! ┬──┬◡ノ(° -°ノ)

Posted
Christians have no business criticizing Islam because some of the followers of Christianity are almost as bad.

Christians are almost as bad today? TODAY ???

:rolleyes:

When a true Genius appears in the World, you may know him by this Sign, that the Dunces are all in confederacy against him. - Jonathan Swift

GO IGGY GO!

Posted

You see Biblio, the church needs to STFU. That's the whole problem. If this one segment of society could just have its rights to free speech removed, the west would be so much better off.

Posted
why not Iran, whose leader recently called for Israel to be wiped off the map.
This rhetoric is very similar to the 'axis of evil' speach Bush gave a few years ago. Both are transparent attempts to boost political support at home by creating conflict with outsiders.

You must remember that the creation of Israel in 1948 was an injustice equivalent to the invasion of Tibet by the Chinese. Millions of Palistinians had their land confiscated and were forced into exile. It is quite understandable that many in the Muslim world feel that the only way to correct this gross violation of rights would be to hand the Israel back to its rightful owners. We in the west should acknowledge that they have a point but make the case that what has been done is regrettable but encourage them to work towards a more peaceful resolution.

Ayatolahs and Bin Laden do not want to conquer the west - they simply want their society to develop without what they see as bullying by outsiders - the US in particular. Bin Laden attacked the US because he was hoping to spark a revolution in Saudia Arabia. It is unlikely he would attack again because the US invasion of Iraq has given him all the propaganda he needs for now. If Iran gets nukes it will be because they are afraid of the US - not because they intend to bomb Israel. That said, if they get nukes they would likely try to use them as a way to force the Israelis to come to a settlement with the palistians. In terms of ethics, using miliary might to achieve diplomatic goals is something the US does all the time. They can hardly complain if Iran starts using the same tactics.

To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.

Posted
This rhetoric is very similar to the 'axis of evil' speach Bush gave a few years ago. Both are transparent attempts to boost political support at home by creating conflict with outsiders.

Oh man, you can't seriously be comparing Bush's statement with the Iran leader's. Bush did not call for Iran to be wiped off the planet. It is similar only in your young mind.

You must remember that the creation of Israel in 1948 was an injustice equivalent to the invasion of Tibet by the Chinese. Millions of Palistinians had their land confiscated and were forced into exile. It is quite understandable that many in the Muslim world feel that the only way to correct this gross violation of rights would be to hand the Israel back to its rightful owners. We in the west should acknowledge that they have a point but make the case that what has been done is regrettable but encourage them to work towards a more peaceful resolution.

Hello, anyone remember the Holocaust where the 6 MILLION JEWS were gassed and then burned. How about the 2 major sneak attack wars(actually more than 2) that the surrounding nations tried to pull to wipe Israel OFF THE MAP. Learn some history.

Ayatolahs and Bin Laden do not want to conquer the west - they simply want their society to develop without what they see as bullying by outsiders - the US in particular. Bin Laden attacked the US because he was hoping to spark a revolution in Saudia Arabia. It is unlikely he would attack again because the US invasion of Iraq has given him all the propaganda he needs for now. If Iran gets nukes it will be because they are afraid of the US - not because they intend to bomb Israel. That said, if they get nukes they would likely try to use them as a way to force the Israelis to come to a settlement with the palistians. In terms of ethics, using miliary might to achieve diplomatic goals is something the US does all the time. They can hardly complain if Iran starts using the same tactics.

Yah, actually Ayatolahs want the Great Satan west to crumble and fall, and our 'sinful' ways to disappear so as not to infect the holy ones. They detest everything from how we treat women, gays, criminals(chop their hands off), and Jews. I don't give a rip why Osama did 9/11. Only that he pays for killing over 4000 innocent civilians. They won't be able to force Israel to do anything. If they try it, it could just mean more war.

Posted
Oh man, you can't seriously be comparing Bush's statement with the Iran leader's.  Bush did not call for Iran to be wiped off the planet.  It is similar only in your young mind.
The term evil in the English language is usually reserved for things that need to be exterminated. Bush may not have said specifically that the countries need to be wiped off the map but he definitely was implying that.
Hello, anyone remember the Holocaust where the 6 MILLION JEWS were gassed and then burned.  How about the 2 major sneak attack wars(actually more than 2) that the surrounding nations tried to pull to wipe Israel OFF THE MAP.  Learn some history.
I know my history and the people living in Palistine at the time had absolutely nothing to do with the holocaust yet they were expected to give up their homes and their land in order to help the Eurpean colonials assuage their guilt. Wake up - stop pretending that the creation of Israel was anything other than UN sanctioned theft. If the Jews needed a country they could have given them any one of the America states - care to explain why that did not happen?
Yah, actually Ayatolahs want the Great Satan west to crumble and fall, and our 'sinful' ways to disappear so as not to infect the holy ones
Just like we want to see the Ayatolahs to crumble and fall and see their repressive regimes be replaced with 'holy' democratic ones. We are guilty of the same 'thought' crimes that you accuse the Ayatolahs of. We may be convinced that our free wheeling society is the best for all people but their are many who disagree (and it isn't just the Ayatolahs).

To fly a plane, you need both a left wing and a right wing.

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