Transgender Issues

[Perspektiv]

6 hours ago, August1991 said:

A person is what a person is.

That doesn't mean anything. I can demonstrate with facts, that this used to be called a disorder until 2012. Specialists stopped calling it a disorder, due to activist pressure on it creating a stigma. 

I agree with renaming it but disagree with it now magically being seen as normal. There is nothing normal about it. There shouldn't be stigma, is the only place I agree. 

[Perspektiv]

This is a divisive issue, as many are sick of being censored and gaslit about the matter. 

 

[Aristides]

23 hours ago, August1991 said:

Disagree. Strongly.

A person is what a person is.

===

Few people are left-handed. Most are right-handed. Very few are ambidextrous.

IMHO, no child in the West is told they're right-handed - but they feel more left-handed.

We used to force left handed people to be right handed. My mother was one of them. She did become ambidextrous at some things but it was a result of what was forced on her.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Aristides

[Michael Hardner]

On 3/31/2023 at 4:37 AM, Perspektiv said:

This is a divisive issue, as many are sick of being censored and gaslit about the matter. 

 

I thought we already established a framework for the discussion:

Human rights codes define a wide middle path.

No one is obliged to be kind, by law ; people will have to live with the consequences of their statements though.

Extremist statements can't be stopped, and should be ignored.

 

---

I don't see which of these applies to your assertion.

 

[Perspektiv]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

people will have to live with the consequences of their statements though.

Thus forcing people to adopt the behavior they are pressured to adopt.

I will never see a male who looks female, as a woman. I'll address them as such, but to be gaslit into thinking there is no difference, is the epitome of crazy.

I see a fat guy with a beard and pigtails and "I'm a GIRL" on his t-shirt, and I'm not automatically assuming this is a woman. I'm assuming this is a crossdresser. Someone who was told they are a woman, even though there is zero evidence of this being the case.

How you feel, and who you are, are vastly different things.

I can't be Japanese, because I was born black. People pick apart this logic, but the same logic is applying to gender.

Also, how could one be a woman, if there no longer is a definition describing what a woman is? "Anyone who identifies as a woman" isn't a description. You're eluding to in this case, for consequences for speaking the truth.

Its would be like race becoming taboo, and me saying am black becoming racist. Where I'd have to define myself with "miscellaneous pigmentation" to keep things vague. It doesn't change my skin color, or my DNA.

Once activists speak in logic and biology, I'll be all ears. Until then, I'll address you as ma'am or sir, or ask you what your name is, if you stray from this.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

1. Thus forcing people to adopt the behavior they are pressured to adopt.

2. I will never see a male who looks female, as a woman. I'll address them as such, but to be gaslit into thinking there is no difference, is the epitome of crazy.

3. Once activists speak in logic and biology, I'll be all ears.  

1. Yeah, well, that is nothing new either.  There are a lot of people who keep quiet about interracial dating too.
2. You are just repeating yourself here.  There's nothing you are saying that is relevant to the where the discussion is at this point.  You are allowed to have opinions that you keep to yourself.  Nobody knows nor should they care.
3. Activists = Extremists in the outline above.

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

There are a lot of people who keep quiet about interracial dating too.

Its not a divisive issue. Most Americans and Canadians, think favorably regarding interracial couples. You're also not dealing with 1% of the population. You're dealing with a significant portion of it.

Acceptance for this as a result, came naturally. Laws only deterred hate crimes from being performed.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

You are allowed to have opinions that you keep to yourself.

That's the thing, though. These aren't opinions. These are facts. There are two genders, and one gender anomaly.

Activists who talk about unlimited genders, can't ever come to a consensus. "Trans women are women", state that a transgendered woman, is no different than a biological woman, but again--activists can't come to a consensus as to what a woman happens to be. The activism is operating from shaky ground, which is why so many are divided about it.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Activists = Extremists in the outline above.

Anyone speaking with logic and pointing to biology or demonstrable facts, aren't extremists in the slightest.

[Michael Hardner]

52 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

1. Its not a divisive issue. Most Americans and Canadians, think favorably regarding interracial couples. You're also not dealing with 1% of the population. You're dealing with a significant portion of it.

2. These aren't opinions. These are facts. There are two genders, and one gender anomaly.

3. Activists ...

 

1. None of this is relevant to your problem with the majority obliging moral responses.  Numbers don't matter, if they did then it would be a vote not a matter of principle.

2. It's s irrelevant to the principle that there's a public moral sphere that you are expected to submit to, which you disagree with. 

3. I addressed what we seem to agree on about activists.

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

None of this is relevant to your problem with the majority obliging moral responses. 

Its the minority, in the context of this thread.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

It's s irrelevant to the principle that there's a public moral sphere that you are expected to submit to, which you disagree with. 

Its the fact they are pushing hogwash as fact. Not morality.

 

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

1. Its the minority, in the context of this thread.

2. Its the fact they are pushing hogwash as fact. Not morality.

 

1. The majority demands adherence to a code of moral conduct which includes plurality, not the minority of trans people or the minority of interracial relationships.  We have a general and non-specific code of tolerance that includes general tolerance for LGBTQ etc.
2. "They" meaning the extremists ?  I find it hard to pin down what your issue is.  You say "I have no problem with..." and then "when they try to ram it down my throat"... just not clear.  "Activists" "Extremists" ...

[Perspektiv]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

We have a general and non-specific code of tolerance that includes general tolerance for LGBTQ etc.

Of course, tolerance and human rights differ from the current attack on language from activists.

4 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

"They" meaning the extremists ? 

Nobody confronts them, so in my books--silence is acceptance.

We've allowed extremists to take over in the mainstream. This is what is causing the heavy handed push back, not the fact that there are transgendered people who should have their human rights respected.

Transphobic has become one of the most weaponized words in the English language. Disagree with this group, and risk getting labeled with it and shut down.

[Michael Hardner]

6 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

1. Of course, tolerance and human rights differ from the current attack on language from activists.

2. Nobody confronts them, so in my books--silence is acceptance.

3. We've allowed extremists to take over in the mainstream. This is what is causing the heavy handed push back, not the fact that there are transgendered people who should have their human rights respected.

4. Transphobic has become one of the most weaponized words in the English language. Disagree with this group, and risk getting labeled with it and shut down.

1. Ok, so your problem is with activists...  My advice is to ignore trolls.
2. Yeah there's plenty of trolls on both sides... and yes they are confronted and they fight with each other.   See #1.
3. "Take over' the mainstream ?  Huh ?  
4.  I think you are just talking about extremists.  People who choose to get controversial on this stuff make their choices in my opinion... 

[Perspektiv]

15 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

My advice is to ignore trolls.

Harder to do when they govern in politics, and have heavy influence in the media.

16 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Yeah there's plenty of trolls on both sides

Correct, but back to the thread..only one side of trolls try to convince others that there are more than two genders. In fact, that there are limitless genders. That questioning a biological male being put in a biological female jail, is transphobic. Using biological woman, vs cisgendered, is transphobic. A biological woman voicing concern of a biological male showering with women with men appendages included, is a TERF. All allowable language changes deliberately coined, to silence opposition under guise of "activism".

18 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

"Take over' the mainstream ?  Huh ?  

See my first point.

19 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I think you are just talking about extremists.

In theory you are correct. But extremist views, are becoming the mainstream norm. If someone publicly approached me and demanded to be called Xir and I refused, I am being transphobic. Yet, nobody can come to a consensus as to how many genders that there are. Nobody can come to a consensus as to what a woman now is, yet trans women are women. It defies logic.

Sorry, but am a logical person. I will rightfully question anything that makes no sense. I don't toe any lines, and would rather die or go to jail, vs blindly believe what am being force fed.

It seems I can't even trust news anymore for info. I need to read books.

 

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

1. In theory you are correct. But extremist views, are becoming the mainstream norm.

2. If someone publicly approached me and demanded to be called Xir and I refused, I am being transphobic.

3. Sorry, but am a logical person. I will rightfully question anything that makes no sense. I don't toe any lines, and would rather die or go to jail, vs blindly believe what am being force fed. It seems I can't even trust news anymore for info. I need to read books.

 

1. If the mainstream supports them then... they're not the extreme anymore right ?
2. Says who now ?  We don't have compelled speech, they just ask you to NOT say certain things.
3. It sounds to me that you don't agree with extremes, but you talk like you are being hunted.  I am going to stop asking because it's all too vague.  You accept trans people but there are some you disagree with - in other words you're like everyone else.

 

[Perspektiv]

43 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

If the mainstream supports them then... they're not the extreme anymore right ?

If the mainstream has been bullied into supporting them, yes they are.

44 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

It sounds to me that you don't agree with extremes

I don't agree with this manufactured lie, that there are more than two genders. This level of BS was forced onto society, in the 1990's onwards.

If I state women shouldn't compete with trans women, this is seen as transphobic by today's standards. Its anchored in a lack of logic. Women generally have 40% less skeletal muscle then men. Have larger pelvises, due to child bearing, have longer torso's to accommodate more reproductive organs. Biological sex can easily be determined via hip bones virtually on all occasions. This is without looking at other telling features, such as skull thickness and brain size (this doesn't correlate to intelligence, mind you).

To say they're the same, is a lie. Some would point to extremes, such as an incredibly tall woman, ignoring that the average woman is 9% shorter than the average man.

People get into their talking points, but can't specify beyond them.

To enforce this lie, is erasing women. It also ignores that gender non conformity is perfectly normal--it however doesn't make you the opposing gender. I've always been gender non conforming, and am happy I was born in a different era. It was confusing enough, without the additional confusion.

All for human rights, but the line gets blatantly crossed, when am forced to accept lies as fact.

[Americana Antifa]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

If the mainstream has been bullied into supporting them, yes they are.

Do you have any evidence that most people were bullied into supporting trans rights?

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

I don't agree with this manufactured lie, that there are more than two genders. This level of BS was forced onto society, in the 1990's onwards.

Nope. There have always been societies that recognized more than two genders. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

Stop using your ignorance as an argument.

[Michael Hardner]

8 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

1. If the mainstream has been bullied into supporting them, yes they are.

 

1. So you've been bullied then?  You didn't make a free choice to support trans people?

 

The rest of your post is a restatement of your position.  I know it, no need to repost.

A true public conversation will allow statement of opinion.  Ignore the trolls.

[Perspektiv]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

So you've been bullied then?

I don't believe in bullying--its me accepting the role of a victim. I'll never be a victim. I'm a fighter by nature. I'll take death standing tall, vs laying down and getting run over.

So yes, I've experienced the backlash and demands for reshaping my speech to appeal to activists, without the supporting proof of what I'm being forced to speak is factual. Or bullied, in your definition of it.

I fought back. I'm outspoken. I don't get intimidated with the weight of the world on my shoulders. I embrace pressure. Most would have been broken, by what I was put through.

Unfortunately those experiences didn't soften my stance. One things "activists" don't realize. They were hardened. I read more books to truly understand my position. I know my stance isn't crazy. Lies being peddled are.

This is a woman, in today's world:

This is an extremist:

This is a peaceful protest (as long as the protesters hold the line):

I don't need to say anything more. We can agree to disagree.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

1. I don't get intimidated with the weight of the world on my shoulders. I embrace pressure. Most would have been broken, by what I was put through.

2. I don't need to say anything more. We can agree to disagree.

1. Yeah, but you support trans people you said.  So why are you not bullied into your opinion but others are?

2. On what?  You appear to be against activists, ok, but beyond that I can't understand why you think that you're taking a brave stance, that there's some major capitulation happening, that activists control the mainstream etc.  Too vague.  I don't know if we disagree or not.

[Perspektiv]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Yeah, but you support trans people you said.  So why are you not bullied into your opinion but others are?

Anonymity. We see people afraid to describe the word woman in public. This is where we are socially.

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You appear to be against activists

Extremists fighting under guise of activism. Activists are fine.

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't know if we disagree or not.

How many genders do you believe that there are? Should a trans woman be jailed with biological women? Are you for or against the use of cis male or female, vs biological? This sort of answers your question. If not relevant to you, consider us agreeing to disagree on the subject.

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

1. Anonymity. We see people afraid to describe the word woman in public. This is where we are socially.

2. How many genders do you believe that there are? Should a trans woman be jailed with biological women? Are you for or against the use of cis male or female, vs biological? This sort of answers your question. If not relevant to you, consider us agreeing to disagree on the subject.

1.  I am not getting it.  Or maybe you aren't.  You say the public is supporting trans politics due to fear.  But you support some trans politics.  But it's not due to fear for you.  Because you are anonymous ?  Please correct what I said.

2. How many genders ?  I think language fails at describing the reality of human emotions.  The question is non specific at best.  The jail question can be worked out.  At least it should be for non violent offenders.  I think language is political and so do you.
 

[Perspektiv]

23 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

But you support some trans politics.

I support human rights. Thats not support of trans politics.

24 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I think language is political and so do you.

I prefer going by biology, which is where we disagree. 

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, Perspektiv said:

1. I support human rights. Thats not support of trans politics.

2. I prefer going by biology, which is where we disagree. 

1. Ok, you support trans rights, like a lot of people.  I think people just arrive at that opinion sometimes.
2. I don't see how we disagree.  

[Americana Antifa]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

 I don't see how we disagree.  

Fascists are too cowardly to admit they just don't want trans people to have rights.

[Perspektiv]

7 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ok, you support trans rights

I support human rights, not trans rights. Trans peoples rights should be respected of course, but not at the expense of others.

IE jailing trans women with biological women. This support of trans rights is at the expense of biological women. I strongly disagree with this.

The right to use the washroom or showers with the gender you identify as. Again. Strong disagree. Your right to feel safe, doesn't and shouldn't trump the right of a biological woman of the same right.

8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't see how we disagree.  

If you can't answer a simple question like how many genders are there, or what a woman is, if trans women are women, then I can see a handful of reasons.