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6 minutes ago, August1991 said:

Perspekitiv,

If I understand correctly, you're poor.

My people were also poor. 

I grew up poor. Am no longer. Both demonstrable. 

Not sure what your end game is. What point you're trying to make. 

If you told me I was poor or not black, I wouldn't need outside affirmation to be black. I mean, someone could tell me am poor, and still wouldn't do a thing to me.

If someone needs to affirm you to avoid you committing suicide, sorry but the most dangerous thing they can make you believe, is that there are zero differences between you and a biological counterpart.

I say this as many will not pass, and as a result, will often be misgendered. If this sends one unraveling, they may have to accept that they aren't the same.

Maybe if we stopped gaslighting these people, and focused more on their mental health, they wouldn't require social safety bubbles to exist.

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Let me make this plain:

In 1867, the UK parliament copied your federal system and created a federal Canada.

In 1900, the UK parliament created a federal Australia.

====I

There were two treaties ending the Seven Years War - 1756-1763.

One treaty was signed in Saxony important for Europe - far more important at the time.

The second treaty signed in Fontainebleau, now important for Canada.

Edited by August1991
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7 hours ago, August1991 said:

A person is what a person is.

By your own words, someone trans is seeking affirmation for what they are trying to be, based on what they feel they are. 

Socially we are normalizing mental illness. This isn't normal. 

This used to be called a disorder for a reason. Just like an eating disorder where one feels they are fat, even though they are a skeleton.

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49 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

 Socially we are normalizing mental illness. This isn't normal. 

This used to be called a disorder for a reason. Just like an eating disorder where one feels they are fat, even though they are a skeleton.

The response to this is pretty much accepted though.  Sometimes the answer is acceptance.

No one can deny it's a little strange and that we're asking a lot of some people to understand it.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Sometimes the answer is acceptance.

We somehow feel that normalizing this, is the only way.

The reality, is treatment doesn't do much to reduce suicides. Some would accuse people like me, for not buying into the language. The terms.

Thats ridiculous. As a racial minority, I and many have survived just fine with society seeing us as throw away garbage if poor.

If your survival relies heavily on your government aid and social validation, you are doomed from the start.

Its almost like they think trans people are too dense to realize the stares and many in society disproving what they had been taught about being normal.

I was taught young to know who I am, and to stand for something. I was also taught that as a black male, I would have to work 5 times as hard as my white counterparts, for the same respect. This was power drilled into my head.

To be taught that the world would see me the same, and that I was like a white person would have been horrible advice. Yes, we are all human but we are different. 

Why not teach pride in what makes you you, vs gaslight people, demanding they believe make believe.

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3 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

1. We somehow feel that normalizing this, is the only way.

2. Thats ridiculous. As a racial minority, I and many have survived just fine with society seeing us as throw away garbage if poor.

3. If your survival relies heavily on your government aid and social validation, you are doomed from the start.

4. Its almost like they think trans people are too dense to realize the stares and many in society disproving what they had been taught about being normal.

5. I was taught young to know who I am, and to stand for something. I was also taught that as a black male, I would have to work 5 times as hard as my white counterparts, for the same respect. This was power drilled into my head...

1. You appear to fall into the popular malaise that "we" is you and me and everybody else with an opinion but not the experts, ie. mental health professionals.

2. Do you want me to give your opinion on mental health more credence because you are black ?  Is that some kind of new affirmative action thing ?  Do you want to be a fireman too ?

3. Like the weapons industry I assume.

4. People stare at interracial couples too - should we abandon morality to the stares of the intolerant ?  Sounds like an album title.

5. Yeah, but you want me to respect you as a mental health expert without any credentials provided.  Not happening.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

is you and me and everybody else with an opinion but not the experts, ie. mental health professionals.

When doctors who are experts ring any alarm, they realize they are swiftly silenced or pressured to fall in line. Some would even have their credentials questioned if they were "crazy" enough to state there were two gender and do so with actual medical evidence.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Do you want me to give your opinion on mental health more credence because you are black ?

Its irrelevant. However, doctors who are silenced because they aren't buying into this trans craze, or worse--those who regret the craze as have irreversible surgeries done to them, should be allowed to voice their concerns. There is a social pressure to keep quiet and fall in line.

To me, scary is a doctor not allowed to voice concern about something they know is in your best interest.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

People stare at interracial couples too - should we abandon morality to the stares of the intolerant ?  Sounds like an album title

As an interracial couple, stares are irrelevant to us. We don't need external validation. Our love is real.

Being trans shouldn't need external validation. The fact that it does, makes them being normal or in not having any type of disorder come into question. 

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

without any credentials provided.

Am not an expert, but experts are being silenced.

Also, I prefer knowing the good the bad and the ugly, prior to passing judgment. If am only seeing the good, I see propaganda.

You don't have to agree with my opinion, just know am far from alone on the matter.

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1 hour ago, Perspektiv said:

1. When doctors who are experts ring any alarm, they realize they are swiftly silenced or pressured to fall in line.

2. Some would even have their credentials questioned if they were "crazy" enough to state there were two gender and do so with actual medical evidence.

3. Its irrelevant.

4. As an interracial couple, stares are irrelevant to us. We don't need external validation. Our love is real. Being trans shouldn't need external validation.  

5. Am not an expert, but experts are being silenced.

6. You don't have to agree with my opinion, just know am far from alone on the matter.

1. Groupthink is always a concern, but we have to be careful because consensus is never 100%.  Are people unfairly admonished for reasonable positions ?  Yes, but given the politically charged atmosphere you need responsible advocacy for the expert opinions - from both sides.  
2. Since 'gender' is being seen as a social construct - I would question what kind of expert would say that.  it seems like a political statement.
3. Ok, but you submitted your blackness as something that gives your opinion weight.  Are you retracting that or have I misunderstood ?
4. Ok - what is your advice to transgender people who are stared at, in the context of this response ?  You seemed to say above that those stares should mean something to them ?
5. We addressed this above, but you really have to be careful.  As with climate change, there are fringe opinions that are vaulted into the realm of 'expert' by people who want to create noise and disinformation.  Any true medical professional takes care of the individual first.
6. No - but you, like a reasonable person, form opinions based on principles.  Where they contradict each other is an area I ask about.  Example: This "trans people are too dense to realize the stares and many in society disproving what they had been taught about being normal" vs "stares are irrelevant to us. We don't need external validation".  I'm just trying to get to the root of your beliefs is all.  If we don't agree, well that's what happens in a free society.

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18 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

from both sides

I agree, but both must be anchored in both facts but more importantly, heavy handed research.

If you silence a voice, that rings the alarm on say, complications on a surgical procedure, because you can only see the positives of the treatment for most, this isn't in the best interest of the patient. That lone voice shouldn't feel ashamed for expressing doubt, or even regret.

Adversely, regret shouldn't equate that treatment is bad. I don't see balanced opinions in the matter, indicating a pressure to comply, in my opinion.

IE famous trans child turned adult, Jazz. She knew more about being in the wrong body and positives of treatment, before it seems she knew a thing about complications and struggles.

She is now stuck with a body she is struggling to accept, and permanent surgical procedures she has no choice but to tend to for the remainder of her life. IE daily dilation for her bottom surgery. Something her mother has threatened her for, considering the complications that would be involved.

Am all for activism, but I would happily affirm a child like this, all while keeping things real with them so they make the best possible decision for themselves (or assess their best interest). As a doctor, this is your job. Not to make activists happy.

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Are you retracting that or have I misunderstood ?

You misunderstood. Me being black doesn't make me an expert on mental health issues. Me being a minority that is socially castrated having grown up poor black and worse--male, has me understanding the plight of someone who would have to fight for the basics their entire lives. To be seen as inferior, and always having to prove I can bring the same to the table. 

What I don't understand, is how one would feel entitled to the world or anyone in it, caring about you. Of course it should, but the world is cold. If affirmation prevents suicide, you hopefully have a supportive family or friends, or are doomed.

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ok - what is your advice to transgender people who are stared at, in the context of this response ? 

No advice needed. Am pointing out one shouldn't need outside validation to exist. If so, you're asking for a tall task, as most will be worried about their own problems, to care about yours.

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

just trying to get to the root of your beliefs is all.

Parents, support systems should validate you. Beyond that, you're on your own in this world. 

I don't understand why I should need to participate in your sense of validation. Or why people are being canceled for refusing to do so.

This is internal, so I am under no obligation to validate what you feel inside. 

Only person I am, I married.

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14 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

1. I agree, but both must be anchored in both facts but more importantly, heavy handed research.

2. Adversely, regret shouldn't equate that treatment is bad. I don't see balanced opinions in the matter, indicating a pressure to comply, in my opinion.

3. IE famous trans child turned adult, Jazz.  

4. I don't understand why I should need to participate in your sense of validation. Or why people are being canceled for refusing to do so.

 

1. Ok
2. Treatment ?  What are you referring to and who is advocating some treatment that isn't widely supported ?
3. Need a cite, sorry.
4. There's no one mandating you being a caring person.  But likewise, if you aren't then people will react as expected.  It's not illegal to be a racist or to call someone a racist name in public.  If they find you out for doing so, don't complain about the consequences.

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4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

Being trans shouldn't need external validation. The fact that it does, makes them being normal or in not having any type of disorder come into question. 

Yet, they aren't able to read stories to kids without protests and violence. Your contention that working hard and ignoring all the ways in which people are marginalized is an effective strategy to gain acceptance is flawed, imo.  Without insistence on being seen, acceptance will not happen.

 

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4 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

 Being trans shouldn't need external validation.  

To add: your relationship doesn't need external validation, which is great.  But it also doesn't need to be persecuted, and is protected from such through the law.  This is something that western countries have slowly adopted - adding anti-discrimination statutes - and it seems to be popular.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

But it also doesn't need to be persecuted

Of course, but it has been. I have overheard someone mentioning the N word while I was walking with an Asian girlfriend.

A white girlfriend of mine had her mom ambush us in front of a packed mall. She didn't approve of my skin color. I got ridiculed, and told men like me, then "good girls like her into prostitutes!" I was speechless. 

My girlfriend tugged at my hand, defying her mothers orders to get in the car, but I let it go. There was no way I was dating someone like this. 

Point am making, is I could write a book on the racism I have experienced. Its wrong, of course, but other than laws making someone think twice before burning a cross in front of my house, I have zero control over what others think of me. I have realized young, that the quicker I stopped caring, the happier I would be.

I also realize I can't eradicate racism. 

I remember a trans youtuber (Blaire  White) got ripped into for feeling you should declare your transness while dating. 

She's very beautiful, but knows she's not the same and pulls no punches about it. 

She knows there will always be transphobia, so would rather date someone who loves her for who she is. 

Gaslighting kids into otherwise, to me sets them up for more disappointment in life.

In typical fashion, she spoke facts, and got torn apart by her own community. 

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Without insistence on being seen, acceptance will not happen

There's a huge difference on awareness, and gaslighting me into either believing a trans woman and my wife are no different, or that I am bigoted for even challenging the thought. 

Push for awareness. Opportunity. But to change language because you can't handle reality? Yeah sorry I don't agree.

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37 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

1. Point am making, is I could write a book on the racism I have experienced. Its wrong, of course, but other than laws making someone think twice before burning a cross in front of my house, I have zero control over what others think of me. I have realized young, that the quicker I stopped caring, the happier I would be.

2. In typical fashion, she spoke facts, and got torn apart by her own community. 

 

1. Yeah, but those laws protect you is the point.  Nobody can reasonably expect you to do anything but follow the law, period.  And I don't think anybody on here argues that you are obliged to be a nice person.
2. Criticizing a community is pointless.  It equates to moralizing, and unless you are in that community it doesn't really edify... anyone.  It amounts to complaining IMO and the conversation goes nowhere.
 

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4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Yeah, but those laws protect you is the point.

Trans people are protected by those same laws. Grievously assault someone who is trans, and you will likely be locked away a very long time under hate crime laws. Beyond laws, I don't think society owes this community a thing.

I agree with Chapelle, in that when did it become my job to participate in your sense of self?

Identify as you see fit. If I don't want to date you, its because of what I see. Someone calling it transphobic, is like me telling a girl who doesn't want my phone number, that she's racist. When people throw the T card word around, it stops being taken seriously.

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Criticizing a community is pointless. 

If they try to bury her because she had an opinion they didn't like, the criticism is justified.

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1 minute ago, Perspektiv said:

1. Trans people are protected by those same laws. Grievously assault someone who is trans, and you will likely be locked away a very long time under hate crime laws. Beyond laws, I don't think society owes this community a thing.

2. I agree with Chapelle, in that when did it become my job to participate in your sense of self?

 

1. You have this odd way of making it sound like you're taking a stand against trans people when you seem to support the laws that protect them.  Again, nobody is expecting anything from you so...
2. Well, it's not.  But... it's not a brave statement or anything to say you're entitled to your opinions.  We all know that.

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8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

stand against trans people

Am all in support for the trans community, and any marginalized community. 

However,  this support isn't at all costs. If a fellow black male approaches me and talks about how whites took from them, I won't blindly throw my support.

I will ask them what they mean, and allow them to elaborate. 

If they talk colonizers, or racist employers, then it will turn to how many interviews have they gone to.

If they get defensive on some "I don't need an interview to be a slave" type of talk, my sympathy ends. They aren't looking for work, so aren't finding any. I know so many employed black males, and many making high salaries. If you are incredibly competent and have references, only a horrible employer wouldn't give you a shot.

If they legitimately have been robbed of opportunity, my support grows.

The trans community is no different. I was banned from a community when my "true colors" came out when I was asked if I would date a trans woman. My quick no, had others demanding to know why. There was no room for understanding why.

I was then gaslit into thinking there literally was zero difference between a biological woman and a trans woman. Both had genitals that looked identical, if the latter was post op. I strongly disagreed. 

"How can you tell?!" I then realized that any answer provided would be deemed as transphobic, as was essentially pointing to the differences vs playing along.

I caused "massive hurt" to the community (who thought I was an ally), with my insensitive comments, and realized I had outgrown this movement. Am asexual, hence being part of the LGBTQ community.

My issue is am a free thinker. I don't follow any movement that forces me to keep my free thinking from being part of the equation.

I am conservative, but got backlash for calling out Trump for his BS. 

Common sense is dying a horrible death in our society. Logic. 

Am in support for human rights for all, but nobody is entitled to special treatment socially. Observing your pronouns is a courtesy. Not an entitlement.

I am behind any push for rights, but to me you lose the crowd in pushing the additional garbage.

 

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8 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

1. Am all in support for the trans community, and any marginalized community. 

2. However,  this support isn't at all costs.  

 

1. I get that...
2. You don't support wingnuts, I get that too.  The idea that people should engage in a moralistic decision-tree when deciding if they want to date somebody is anti-human, and at worst not empathetic.  A community of such people is like a backwoods enclave to me.  You didn't belong in that community.

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2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

A community of such people is like a backwoods enclave to me. 

Activists for the trans community mean well, but their approach will by default push people away from their cause. 

If you try to gaslight someone that biological woman is now a slur, or any questions,  you are approaching in a divisive manner.

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On 3/29/2023 at 5:33 AM, Perspektiv said:

By your own words, someone trans is seeking affirmation for what they are trying to be, based on what they feel they are. 

Socially we are normalizing mental illness. This isn't normal. 

This used to be called a disorder for a reason. Just like an eating disorder where one feels they are fat, even though they are a skeleton.

Disagree. Strongly.

A person is what a person is.

===

Few people are left-handed. Most are right-handed. Very few are ambidextrous.

IMHO, no child in the West is told they're right-handed - but they feel more left-handed.

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