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Trudeau government has spent most money per person per year in Canadian history EVEN EXCLUDING COVID SPECIFIC SPENDING


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https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/trudeau-government-spending-canadian-history

 

“Ultimately, the consequences of higher spending, as we’ve seen in recent years, is leading to higher deficits. That means there’s higher debt and growing interest payments that have to be paid by taxpayers,” said Fuss. “You ultimately can’t just continue increasing inflation-adjusted per person spending, without there being consequences associated with those decisions over a long time period.”

Yup  - and we're learning that for the second time under a second trudeau. Enjoy the inflation people.

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3 hours ago, Contrarian said:

BIAS of a conservative. 

I can write as a lawyer and as a politician too ---> With good grammar, too. ?

  • Much of the spending was in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, which posed significant economic challenges.

This specifically mentions excluding covid related spending.

3 hours ago, Contrarian said:
  • Deficit spending can be necessary to stimulate economic growth, particularly during times of economic downturn.

This is the largest in history and our economy got so 'stimulated' that we now have runaway inflation.

3 hours ago, Contrarian said:
  • Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio is still relatively low compared to other countries, which suggests that the country is in a relatively strong fiscal position.

It is climbing out of control and if you're comparing us to countries like greece that's not the bar you want set.

Our debt to gdp USED to be low. Not anymore.

3 hours ago, Contrarian said:
  • Cutting spending too drastically could have long-term negative effects on the economy and on individual Canadians.

That's true, it has to be done wisely. But they're not cutting - they're INCREASING spending.  Guess what's going to happen when someone DOES finally start to cut? It's going to need to be more drastic.

3 hours ago, Contrarian said:
  • The decision to increase or decrease spending is a complex one that requires careful consideration of a variety of factors, including economic conditions, government priorities, and the needs of individual citizens.

Unfortunately trudeau doesn't think about monetary policy.

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17 hours ago, Contrarian said:

BIAS of a conservative. 

I can write as a lawyer and as a politician too ---> With good grammar, too. ?

  • Much of the spending was in response to the COVID-19 pandemic, which posed significant economic challenges.
  • Deficit spending can be necessary to stimulate economic growth, particularly during times of economic downturn.

Deficit spending for value adding activities can stimulate growth.  Expanding program spending inefficiently does the opposite.  Sound infrastructure investments = (potentially) good debt.  Daycare, pharma care and even dental care could all (if executed properly) actually promote job growth and productivity.  The problem will be how these are executed, and doing them all at once with no real plan on how to pay for them is probably not the best way to execute.  

17 hours ago, Contrarian said:
  • Canada's debt-to-GDP ratio is still relatively low compared to other countries, which suggests that the country is in a relatively strong fiscal position.

 

This is an accounting trick that Canadian governments have been using since the Chretien days when the CPP as reformed.  The net debt to GDP ratio is skewed because it includes CPP assets on the balance sheet, but doesn't account for the fact that these assets are already bound to future pension liabilities and those liabilities aren't included on the debt-to-gdp calculation.  

17 hours ago, Contrarian said:
  • Cutting spending too drastically could have long-term negative effects on the economy and on individual Canadians.

Increasing it too dramatically has an equally harmful impact. 

17 hours ago, Contrarian said:
  • The decision to increase or decrease spending is a complex one that requires careful consideration of a variety of factors, including economic conditions, government priorities, and the needs of individual citizens.

True enough, but I don't think Trudeau is carefully considering anything when it comes to our budget.  Like his father before him, it's spend spend spend and let the people love you for it, and let the next guy pick up the pieces and pay the bill. 

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On 3/10/2023 at 11:00 AM, Moonbox said:

This is an accounting trick that Canadian governments have been using since the Chretien days when the CPP as reformed.  The net debt to GDP ratio is skewed because it includes CPP assets on the balance sheet, but doesn't account for the fact that these assets are already bound to future pension liabilities and those liabilities aren't included on the debt-to-gdp calculation.  

It's even worse than this because when comparing us to most other nations we're ignoring much of the high cost of the public healthcare system. That cost is at the provincial level and provincial debt is not included in the calculation and comparison to other nations. Yet most other nations' healthcare expenditures are at the national level and are included in their numbers. On total government debt Canada is at 134% of GDP. That's not quite as bad as the US, but they have a lot of financial options, levers and abilities we lack. The UK is at 120% and they don't seem to be doing well. Australia is at 84%. Germany is at 77%. And those wonderfully efficient Swiss are at 41%. Of course, the Italians and Greeks are worse than us, as are the Japanese. But all the well-run Nordic countries are much lower than we are.

And yet the Liberals brag about our low debt to GDP level. We're the 34th best out of 41 developed nations! Woo hoo!

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1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Putting Canadians further into debt by using their money to buy their votes is the Liberal way under Trudeau who says, “the debt will take care of itself.”

If it were only that it would be bad enough.  But - it's not just that.

They also drive us into insane debt and taxes by inflating the bureaucracy. Both trudeaus Radically increased the public service and number of civil servants and put their people in a number of key positions .

That means when they're out of power for a while they will STILL have huge control over the gov't and can slow up or stall a lot of inititives and do some effective lobbying work. It takes many years for the conservatives to reverse that when they get in as a rule and by then the libs are ready to be elected again.  Meanwhile the bloated bureaucracy costs us billions of dollars.

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On 3/9/2023 at 12:02 PM, CdnFox said:

https://nationalpost.com/news/politics/trudeau-government-spending-canadian-history

 

“Ultimately, the consequences of higher spending, as we’ve seen in recent years, is leading to higher deficits. That means there’s higher debt and growing interest payments that have to be paid by taxpayers,” said Fuss. “You ultimately can’t just continue increasing inflation-adjusted per person spending, without there being consequences associated with those decisions over a long time period.”

Yup  - and we're learning that for the second time under a second trudeau. Enjoy the inflation people.

Isn't that what everyone wants? Spending money on Canadians. Getting stuff for free. Not having to pay and just having government give?

Everyone should be more than happy to hear "government has spent most money per person per year in Canadian history", it is the ultimate government action. Give, give, give, so we can take, take, take.  /s

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2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Isn't that what everyone wants? Spending money on Canadians. Getting stuff for free. Not having to pay and just having government give?

Everyone should be more than happy to hear "government has spent most money per person per year in Canadian history", it is the ultimate government action. Give, give, give, so we can take, take, take.  /s

IT's what everyone wants right until the consequences affect their lives :)

Then half of them start caring about fixing it and the other half thinks the gov't should borrow more money to help them through these difficult times. :)  And hopefully the first half shows up at the polls and we get a conservative gov't who focuses on fixing that.

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1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

IT's what everyone wants right until the consequences affect their lives :)

Then half of them start caring about fixing it and the other half thinks the gov't should borrow more money to help them through these difficult times. :)  And hopefully the first half shows up at the polls and we get a conservative gov't who focuses on fixing that.

And yet the liberals are still in power and still hold a fair chunk of the Canadian voter share, which really say a few things either they don't really care about the consequences of all this spending, they will continue to support this government including it's increasing spending tommorrow and the day after, as long as there is something in it for them...good old fashion Canadian greed...or we are to stupid to know what is going on, and are happy with the tidbits we get from all this spending...Thinking one day they are going to wake up, smarten up is a fairy tale.

They are terrified the taps will be turned off, and they will have to start paying some of these bills... which is going to happen, taxes are going up across the board, federally, and provincially, I find it a little ironic, that despite all the fuss about climate change the main thing keeping our economy afloat is fossil fuels...every level of government is posting surpluses due to income from fossil fuel prices, and all the extra taxes on them...

 

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1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

IT's what everyone wants right until the consequences affect their lives :)

Then half of them start caring about fixing it and the other half thinks the gov't should borrow more money to help them through these difficult times. :)  And hopefully the first half shows up at the polls and we get a conservative gov't who focuses on fixing that.

Yup. you got it. It is what everyone wants.

"Then half of them start caring about fixing it and the other half thinks the gov't should borrow more money to help them through these difficult times." so we elect them back in or we elect another party and start all over. LOL

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On 3/9/2023 at 9:02 AM, CdnFox said:

“You ultimately can’t just continue increasing inflation-adjusted per person spending, without there being consequences associated with those decisions over a long time period.”

Of course you can.

It's not like we're borrowing from aliens from outer space who are demanding payment or else.

That said, there's an asteroid between Mars and Jupiter worth some gazillion quadrillion dollars and nothing comes easier to human beings than pie in the sky financing. Bar nothing.

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2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

And yet the liberals are still in power and still hold a fair chunk of the Canadian voter share, which really say a few things either they don't really care about the consequences of all this spending,

Well for most it's only starting to hit really hard now. During the last election neither side was talking that much about it and inflation hadn't run away like a scared rabbit yet.  It hadn't affected their lives.

Don't expect massive change in the polling in between terms.  Until people see a campaign and decide someone has a  better idea they just tend to stay where they are.  BUt - that changes when an election starts and they're looking for something. to be different.

2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

They are terrified the taps will be turned off, and they will have to start paying some of these bills...

Many are. And others start to get worried that while they're not sinking yet the water is up to their chins. And they'll want change before it goes over their nose.

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1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Of course you can.

It's not like we're borrowing from aliens from outer space who are demanding payment or else.

That said, there's an asteroid between Mars and Jupiter worth some gazillion quadrillion dollars and nothing comes easier to human beings than pie in the sky financing. Bar nothing.

Of course you can't.  If you try, then inflation goes up and then interest rates have to go up and then you wind up into a spiral that quickly gets out of control.

Gee - if only there was a modern canadian example of that happening.

Anyway - if you want to find out how that ends ask greece.

You cannot keep borrowing and spending without severe consequence.

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7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

Of course you can't.  If you try, then inflation goes up and then interest rates have to go up and then you wind up into a spiral that quickly gets out of control.

I don't see why when the whole planet is in the same boat at the same time.  

Quote

Gee - if only there was a modern canadian example of that happening.

Anyway - if you want to find out how that ends ask greece.

Yes but now everyone is Greek.  

Quote

You cannot keep borrowing and spending without severe consequence.

We can if just kill everyone that's bent on wreaking these severe consequences.  I mean how many people exactly are you talking about who are threatening to foreclose on the human race?

I get what you're saying and why it apparently matters under 'normal' circumstances but I also note every time we need to borrow and spend our way out of some catastrophe or into a war there's no shortage of cash and no one getting all pissy about the debt.  The economic stratagems and contraptions we invent are not like the laws of physics or forces of nature. Don't forget economics is a just a social science.  And hey, knowing that should actually be liberating in the potential it has for inventing new contraptions to get us out of our pickles.

In any case I was quite serious about pie in the sky financing.

Quote

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Psyche  

16 Psyche—a 140-mile-wide/226-kilometer-wide asteroid—could contain a core of iron, nickel and gold worth $10,000 quadrillion.

It's like a big fat cherry just waiting to be picked. Heck we could probably get steenkin' rich just starting a war over it right now. Why wait?

 

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1 minute ago, eyeball said:

I don't see why when the whole planet is in the same boat at the same time. 

Well that's partly because you refuse to see things that don't fit your narrative, and partly because ALL gov'ts during covid overspent to keep their public safe,  but if you look closely you'll note inflation has not been the same everywhere. And that's fairly reflective of how they chose to handle things.

THe countries with the worst inflation tended to all spend a great deal on 'covid support'.  Countries that  didn't excessively spend in that department like Sweden and japan all have much lower inflation.  Countries that did such as Canada, the us, uk, france, greece, spain, all have much higher inflation rates.  And of course some European countries were a little more dependent on russia and ukraine for food and oil and were affected a little more strongly than Canada was by that war.

Not only that but canada entered it's high inflation cycle much earlier than most - and because inflation is compounding that makes the effect of the current inflation much worse.

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/inflation-rate-

Further - food inflation is worse in canada than most countries,

https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/food-inflation

Canada is VERY high in food inflation - and yet this is where most of our food is made. So it's not 'supply chain issues', that's for sure.

Canada SHOULD be on the lower end of inflation. We SHOULD be closer to japan. But like the US we went insane with spending and made bad decisions and now there's a price. Imagine that.

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Yes but now everyone is Greek.  

no, most countries are still solid. And while canada is in a much worse position than it was in 2015, if we stop being braindead about finances we'll still recover.

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

We can if just kill everyone that's bent on wreaking these severe consequences.  I mean how many people exactly are you talking about who are threatening to foreclose on the human race?

All of them.  This may shock you but it's not aliens that drive up food prices. It's not some small group of people who are making our housing market unaffordable.

This is the NATURAL AND PREDICTABLE effect of dumping unearned money into the economy.  This is what happens, and if it's not countered then it becomes a disaster. So interest rates have to go up to prevent an exponential runaway like we saw with the last trudeau and that hurts the economy and causes people to suffer more, and causes rents etc to go up - AND then there's less money for social programs so you either borrow more and drive things up again or let people suffer - it's all kinds of fun. 

No aliens required.

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

I get what you're saying and why it apparently matters under 'normal' circumstances but I also note every time we need to borrow and spend our way out of some catastrophe or into a war there's no shortage of cash and no one getting all pissy about the debt. 

Virtually every time there's a shortage of cash and people get pissy.

We god away with it in the wars only by introducing income tax and radically increasing people's tax burden. Well you can't do that forever. WE already tax about half what the average person makes or just over, you gotta leave them something.

Later, we saw disaster. The rampant spending of the 70's led to massive financial hardships and problems in the 80's.  THere was DEFINITELY a shortage of cash and MUCH pissyness.

We've seen the same several times since as well.  And every time we come out slightly less able to cope.

And again - greece. Spain, Venezuela. Now france is teetering, Every time you think you can spend whatever without consequence the country winds up imploding.

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

The economic stratagems and contraptions we invent are like the laws of physics or forces of nature. Don't forget economics is a just a social science.  And hey, knowing that should actually be liberating in the potential it has for inventing new contraptions to get us out of our pickles.

Nope. Sorry - but the 'science' of economics such as it is is completely bound by human nature. Generally you cannot create a system that is not in keeping with human nature and expect it to survive for long. THats' why strongly socailist or communistic type models always fail, and why capitalism is effective.

At the end of the day there's really not a massive magic wand when it comes to economics - there's no silver bullet or the like.

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

In any case I was quite serious about pie in the sky financing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/16_Psyche  

It's like a big fat cherry just waiting to be picked.

I've heard similar things about the asteroid belt and such - i have no doubt one day we'll wind up mining the hell out of space.

Plus - mercury is mostly iron. Seriously - who'd miss it?

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