Should the International Community Intervene in Haiti?

[Guest]

On 3/18/2023 at 2:50 PM, Right To Left said:

And who ordered the hit? 

Nobody knows for sure yet, but could be drug cartels or simply one of the gangs within his own country that had ties with heavy handed pockets to secure the funds needed to operate such a precise hit. One thing for certain, was that it was an inside job. You don't get into a gated community and through multiple layers of security without alerting your protected asset unless someone had their eyes closed.

I'm Haitian, so I wouldn't buy it if told it was incompetence. "Incompetence" was essentially a price paid to one of his security detail or many, who wanted him out, anyway.

[Guest]

The unrest of him extending his term was him putting a bull's eye on his head, to begin with. Someone executing on it, was just a formality.

[Guest]

On 3/18/2023 at 2:50 PM, Right To Left said:

And how do you detach Haiti's poverty

You can't, in reality. However, Jean Bertrand Aristide was their last president pressing a country for reparations (in that his approach was incredibly direct and public--and he also put an amount that France owed), and they applied return pressure, forcing him to flee his country as he knew his days were numbered had he remained.

On 3/18/2023 at 2:50 PM, Right To Left said:

If they all left, Haiti would be better off, because then Haitians could be producing their own food for their own population, rather than working as slaves for foreign interests! 

Its a sad cycle, that I don't think will ever be broken.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

“What they didn’t count on was the population striking back,”

Am not surprised. Vigilante justice is the norm in Haiti. 

My mother had told me a story about a woman accused of witchcraft. Her fate? She was beaten and tied to a tree and set on fire. 

Now, I unfortunately have heard the human screams of someone burning to death, but if you haven't, consider yourself lucky. It sticks with you for life. 

This is not surprising. You back a dog against a wall and you give it no choice but to attack with all it's might.

Their jobs are gone. Their society is gone. If I have nothing left then dying no longer is a fear. You fear death when you have something to lose. Something to live for.

It (sadly) is something worth looking forward to, as long as they die fighting. 

Solutions must come from within, and in considering that, I have zero hope for Haiti.

I always wanted my wife to experience where am from, as I have experienced her country, but don't think this realistic let alone sensible.

[Guest]

Haiti was always standing near the precipice. Covid-19, has shoved it to where it is teetering over the edge. 

[August1991]

On 3/12/2023 at 4:23 PM, Perspektiv said:

I have quite a few times, but feel hand outs don't work. It creates a dependency, or in the case of Haiti, more pressure for more funds, while immense sums of money go missing.

Well said.

Years ago, I walked away from this rent-seeking scam.

====

Yet, years later, people in some places are better off than others. Free markets? Democracy?

It's not obvious at all.

 

[August1991]

Haiti is similar to our indigenous communities (so called native Indians).

Do gooders or money?

In Haiti, the do-gooders obviously have not worked.

Giving a few/them lotsa money - Paul Martin/Korean style - in the theory that it will create a rich elite to develop the rest?

Amongst Canada's native Indians? IMHO, at great cost, it has sort of worked.

IOW, money matters.

==

By "do-gooders", I mean the Oxfam people, teachers etc (for example) who go to help.

Edited May 11, 2023 by August1991

[August1991]

Let me respond to myself:

1. We gave zillions of dollars to the Saudis. (As a Brit engineer once said as I flew into Amman, "Imagine if you gave several billion to Henry VIII. That's the Saudi kingdom. Medieval.") 

2. More money doesn't work: (Arabia? Look at Nigeria -Note to Paul Martin and Trudeau Jnr about native people.)

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by August1991

[Guest]

2 hours ago, August1991 said:

More money doesn't work

During the earthquake that leveled almost entire cities, many sent money to Haiti. Its considered one of the most corrupt countries on the planet. 

We are talking a country that would get a quote for an entire neighborhood to be built for 15 million or so USD, on paper.

Knowing quite well, they could do the job for 2.3 million with shoddy materials.

The neighborhood is built, photos are sent to the west, who can virtue signal, yet the cost to rent is so high, nobody can rent so spaces remain vacant. 

All the while, officials pocket the remaining money, sending funds off shore, and murkying the money trail.

No remorse, even though so many are starving. Some even to death.

Giving money to this level of corruption, is wrong (sadly).

Fixing Haiti, is like fixing an addiction who is in denial they are broken.

You cannot fix something that is rotted at the roots. 

Meaning, unless you can eliminate extreme poverty there, there always will be corruption. 

When a police officer barely can earl 200 to 300USD per month, some of which having no bulletproof vests, how do you expect to fight gangs who have access to far more funding? Better weapons?

[Right To Left]

On 5/11/2023 at 12:05 AM, August1991 said:

Haiti is similar to our indigenous communities (so called native Indians).

Do gooders or money?

In Haiti, the do-gooders obviously have not worked.

Giving a few/them lotsa money - Paul Martin/Korean style - in the theory that it will create a rich elite to develop the rest?

Amongst Canada's native Indians? IMHO, at great cost, it has sort of worked.

IOW, money matters.

==

By "do-gooders", I mean the Oxfam people, teachers etc (for example) who go to help.

"So called native Indians?"  That was the early colonizers from Europe...who thought they had landed in India and 'Cathay' or China, because they didn't consider that there might be continents and people living on them in between Europe and East Asia. 

But, once the name stuck, the colonizers were reluctant to give up on it. Of the thousands of different nations who lived in the Americas, none of them called themselves "Indians." But, you don't really care anyway, so why mention it in the first place! 

Do gooders....don't do much good anyway! The earliest ones were the guys wearing black robes, who just cared more about making converts to their religion than they did about making money. But, they were as good as it would ever get for the indigenous peoples of the "new world." 

In Haiti,  if you are unaware of history, Haiti is the only place in the Americas where the slave-owning colonizers were overthrown by a slave revolt! But, because none of the other Euro descendant nations cared one iota about Haiti or its people, they (Great Britain, and self-proclaimed 'Land of Liberty' the USA) ruled that the newly independent slaves in Haiti, were still obliged to pay their former oppressors in France all of the money that France and French bankers claimed to have lost because of the slave revolt. 

It goes almost completely unmentioned today, but because the newly independent nation of Haiti was obligated to pay 'reparations' to France (equivalent to $30 billion USD in today's dollars) the onerous burden left them indebted until very recent times, and unable to do much of any development to improve their lot in life.  It's not likely that newly independent Haitians expected much from France, but their self-proclaimed adversaries in Great Britain, wouldn't open trade or banking with Haiti either. What was most shocking to the first generation of Haitian leaders was that the recently freed former colonies that created the USA, wouldn't help them or do business with them either! 

The only thing that is shocking today is that you and other uber capitalists, who consider all poverty a matter of individual failings, are still blaming the Haitians for their high rates of crime, poverty and malnutrition to this day!

 

 

 

[August1991]

On 5/25/2023 at 2:14 PM, Right To Left said:

....

In Haiti,  if you are unaware of history, Haiti is the only place in the Americas where the slave-owning colonizers were overthrown by a slave revolt! But, because none of the other Euro descendant nations cared one iota about Haiti or its people, they (Great Britain, and self-proclaimed 'Land of Liberty' the USA) ruled that the newly independent slaves in Haiti, were still obliged to pay their former oppressors in France all of the money that France and French bankers claimed to have lost because of the slave revolt.

'''' 

The only thing that is shocking today is that you and other uber capitalists, who consider all poverty a matter of individual failings, are still blaming the Haitians for their high rates of crime, poverty and malnutrition to this day!

....

In my life time, in China and in India - not millions but billions of ordinary people - live better.

The poverty in Haiti is not caused by capitalism.

And I reckon that leftist do-gooders trying to help Haitians have caused more harm.

Maybe dumping zillions of dollars on Haiti (Saudi-oil, Paul Martin, Trudeau Jnr "Indigineous"-style) might work. I doubt it. It will just be another Nigeria.

IMHO, like Singapore and China, they have to do it themselves.

[Nationalist]

I've been looking at this thread wondering about it. Haiti is a mess and I hear it's spilling into the Domincan. Not good.

But what can we do about it, without escalated tensions? I'm not a fan of butting into other peoples' fights. I could deal with sending food and medical supplies...

[Guest]

On 7/7/2023 at 4:17 PM, Nationalist said:

But what can we do about it, without escalated tensions?

I see it like giving a million to a drug addict. They are already messed up and need to help themselves. Money won't help.

Until they realize the only fixes can come within, they are wasting their time.

China was mired in poverty generations ago. They assed and looked in the mirror.  They knew where they had to invest, to get out of their plight.

I don't see this happening in Haiti.

You have to keep in mind, an average cop is making about 300USD per month, to risk their lives.

Same reason why cartels are so powerful.

Some are willing to pay you 20, 000$, 40, 000$ a year based on rank. 

I offer a Haitian cop 1, 500$ to turn a blind eye to me shooting someone, again--300$ a month...

That level of poverty breeds corruption. 

[August1991]

On 7/7/2023 at 4:17 PM, Nationalist said:

I've been looking at this thread wondering about...

Zillions - zillions - of bucks work.

Look at the Emirates.

====

I've never been to the UAE. But I've been to Arabia. And I've known a few Slavic women.

Women in Arabia?

Always four identical houses. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by August1991

[Nationalist]

1 hour ago, August1991 said:

Zillions - zillions - of bucks work.

Look at the Emirates.

====

I've never been to the UAE. But I've been to Arabia. And I've known a few Slavic women.

Women in Arabia?

Always four identical houses. 

Throw money at Haiti?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Throw money at Haiti?

Throwing money at Haiti would be as effective as giving a crackhead 1, 000$.

The corruption levels are so embedded into their politics, that sending money guarantees very little make it where it belongs.

[Nationalist]

20 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Throwing money at Haiti would be as effective as giving a crackhead 1, 000$.

The corruption levels are so embedded into their politics, that sending money guarantees very little make it where it belongs.

Sounds like Ukraine too.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Nationalist said:

Sounds like Ukraine too.

Unfortunately. I find it funny they advertise the country as a wholesome one, and ignore the levels of corruption that exist there, yet won't hesitate to send billions and not ask any questions.

[Nationalist]

19 minutes ago, Perspektiv said:

Unfortunately. I find it funny they advertise the country as a wholesome one, and ignore the levels of corruption that exist there, yet won't hesitate to send billions and not ask any questions.

Stupid is as stupid does...

[OftenWrong]

Was in Dominican once. They had men walking around with rifles...

[Moonbox]

Just regular dudes, or guards/police?  I see guards all over the place in Mexico with big guns carried in the open.  

[OftenWrong]

6 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Just regular dudes, or guards/police?  I see guards all over the place in Mexico with big guns carried in the open.  

Point is we take Canada for granted. There's a lot of places in the world that could be called "shithole countries"... and Haiti is one of them.

They showed the footage after that terrible earthquake years ago. Everything was in ruins... destroyed buildings, garbage everywhere, raw sewage flowing in the streets. Then they showed footage of Haiti the year before... and it wasn't that different. The quake only made it a little worse.

Then they were collecting charity money everywhere for Haiti. Even at the grocery store. It was probably the first time we saw that. Please drop an anonymous two bucks in our charity bucket. Then there was a new term came out, the charity industry. You get the piture? As in Charity- Industrial complex. They collected a ton of money and sent millions worth of supplies to Haiti. Everyone thought that was pretty good but then we never heard about it until later, that there was simply no way to get the supplies out of the airport and through the country. The roads were totally wrecked and impassable. No trucks could get through.

They didn't bother to mention that the roads were already like that before the quake...  

[August1991]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

Throw money at Haiti?

Throw money at specific women in Haiti.

Incentives.

====

Honest to God - I don't know 

Edited July 25, 2023 by August1991

[August1991]

The Left has made a disaster of Baltimore, Haiti, Detroit, Venezuela, Moscow, the DDR.

Sorry: Moscow's not bad. And Leipzig is funky.

====

The Right? It gets blamed for Somalia.  

Edited July 25, 2023 by August1991

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

They showed the footage after that terrible earthquake years ago. Everything was in ruins... destroyed buildings, garbage everywhere, raw sewage flowing in the streets. Then they showed footage of Haiti the year before... and it wasn't that different. The quake only made it a little worse.

Yes pretty much.  It's the worst and poorest shithole on our hemisphere.  

and they have this guy to thank for it!  Who'd have thought that a batshit nutter who threatened his enemies with voodoo curses would steer the country wrong.  If it wasn't before my time, I'd have probably said "saw that coming".