Should the International Community Intervene in Haiti?

[Guest]

We have all seen the slow degradation of Haiti occur. The nail in the coffin,  has been the orchestrated assassination of their president Jovenel Moise in 2021.

Some feel help should be sent to assist in restoring order.

Others feel that the solutions must come from within.

What do you think.

Should the International community intervene in Haiti?

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Contrarian said:

Curious if you have any information in regard to public opinion in Haiti.

Most in Haiti are incredibly distrustful of their elected officials.

Its one of the most corrupt countries on the planet. 

My parents who were refugees from this country, have told me countless horror stories of what they experienced which made getting out their only option. This was in the 70's. But even growing up, I heard of how incredibly corrupt that a government could be. Literally unmarked vehicles plucking people and killing them, levels of corrupt. Police opening fire on crowds and getting away with it.

Its only gotten much worse.

The deadly earthquake they had put this corruption in full view.

Many fraudulent projects were constructed as a show and tell (and a means to make you feel those dollars went to something), yet those who were poor had gotten little to no help.

Construction contracts had corruption all over them, and if you tried to find a paper trail, you wouldn't find one.

Many are sick of the violence and the fuel depot blockades grinding society to a halt, including hospitals which rely on diesel generators, but don't have any trust or faith in their government.

3 hours ago, Contrarian said:

Are people ok with an outside military force intervening now?

I don't think this would be a good idea. Thugs would not hesitate to use civilians as human shields. 

However, the major problem is a police officer is typically paid crumbs, is dealing with low staff, will likely have no bulletproof vest and a handgun, and is dealing with a well funded gang movement that has more weapons than their police force. Many have bulletproof vehicles.

I think of a raid carried out by Rodrigo Duterte years ago, in a terrorist infested area within the Mindanao Islands in the Philippines.

It was a major bloodbath, as many expected.

I was recently in Mindanao last year, and you can see how much control he took of the island, but one must always ask--was the cost too high in human lives?

[Guest]

I don't think sending money would help anyone but the elected officials who got their hands on it. 

They literally have no courts, and an outgunned police force.

Sending ground troops, would cause high death tolls. Something the west has zero appetite for.

Other than intelligence, I am not sure of what one can do.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Contrarian said:

Some of these politicians need to know if you don't start finding practical solutions, there is no more money to come. 

This is part of the issue, like in Somalia.

Aid comes from a good place, but will usually go through sticky fingers before crumbs make it to the actual population.

Humanitarian aid if send down in that country, would get heavily taxed by Al-Shabab terrorists. This prevents aid, as there is the fear it would get taxed, or any assets sent would fall to terrorists hands, which is unacceptable with millions facing famine.

Gang controlled areas in Haiti are similar, only that the scale of humanitarian crisis isn't the same, for now.

Fuel would get stolen at face value, and sold at several times the cost. Businesses would get taxed for "protection", and women would get sexually assaulted during break ins or ambushes.

Refuse to comply, like an affluent family of women driving in an SUV did last week, and get riddled with bullets and set ablaze. This is who you are negotiating with.

Gang leader nicknamed "Barbecue" showcased their power, by ordering the current interim president to step down, and he would unblock fuel barricades and send fuel flowing back into the country.

Their interim president is accused of conspiring to assassinate the previous president.

Who is in control, and how do you trust any of them?

[OftenWrong]

I think yes, there are countries who hold some blame for the situation in Haiti. I'm no expert of course, but the first thing that comes to mind is, these are people descended from African slaves. Therefore France is the most responsible in the first place, not only for bringing them there but for the huge reparation payments France demanded upon their independence, literally plunging Haiti into abject poverty that remains permanent.

Other countries exploited Haiti as well. The USA occupied Haiti for a time and profitted from using Haitian workers to produce very cheap products. Gold and resources were taken from Haiti by multinationals where the people of Haiti receved nothing in return.

I'd start with France, specifically Macron and the other virtue signalling c*cksuckers. They probably need to bring in the military to establish basic order. 

Then install a strongman who reigns with an iron fist. Too many years of gangs and embedded criminality for democracy to work.

Edited March 8, 2023 by OftenWrong

[Guest]

3 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Then install a strongman who reigns with an iron fist.

My parents fled Haiti due to Francois Duvalier. 

This would be rewinding time,  to a time where the power balance switched hands, but the corruption remained the same.

[Guest]

Duvalier was eerily similar to what Donald Trump sounded like, if he was allowed to do as he pleased without the confines of democracy or the law.

IE plucking and killing any opponents. People were afraid of uttering his name in their own home.

He used armed militias to impose fear and order. 

Maybe this is what Haiti needs, but am not sure if they would need someone that hard-core.

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

Yes, if the solution does not from the outside, this might be a course of action. 

It is a risk, as Almighty knows what it can metamorphose into, but a strong rule is probably needed to establish order, internally if citizens don't want outsiders in. 

Downside is similar to the Philippines.

Duterte ran things with an iron fist.

Killed so many, that he established a fear that kept people in line.

The moment he left office however, the corruption returned tenfold.

I don't think Haiti can be fixed. It's had around 200 years to get its act together as a sovereign nation.

At this point I think its more of a formality, to avoid millions of people pouring through borders should it face mass famine.

I mean, some are resorting to eating dirt, so it may be dangerously close if this crisis can't be controlled:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mud_cookie

 

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, Perspektiv said:

My parents fled Haiti due to Francois Duvalier. 

This would be rewinding time,  to a time where the power balance switched hands, but the corruption remained the same.

Yeah I was sort of kidding about the strongman part. Just my cynicism that a country that's been corrupted for so long can't support a democracy. It requires more cooperation. To wit- the political changes and assassinations that have taken place there over the years. They cannot achieve stability. It's as though they are being interfered with from outside influences.

Sometimes a strongman is the only way forward, and without them things revert to chaos quickly. As was the case in Iraq for example.

I am curious though, if we look at the conditions in Haiti under Duvalier and afterward, did things improve, worsen or stay the same?

I will bet one dollar things got worse.

Edited March 8, 2023 by OftenWrong

[Guest]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I am curious though, if we look at the conditions in Haiti under Duvalier and afterward, did things improve, worsen or stay the same?

I would like to say that they worsened, but historically have always been mired in turmoil. 

The country was always downward spiraling, however.

[Right To Left]

I voted for 'send funds', but I'd really like to say Tell Former Colonial masters - France to pay back all the money they stole from Haiti after they were forced to give up this colony, and were preaching that slaveowners deserve reparations for their 'property' taken away from them. 

The money they stole...with accumulated interest over the years, would be in the $billions and give Haiti the chance they never had to establish themselves as an independent nation!

[Guest]

11 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Just my cynicism that a country that's been corrupted for so long can't support a democracy

It can't. Any politician telling you that it can, is trying to virtue signal their sending money to people who ultimately will corrupt those funds.

Its sad, because those who will ultimately suffer, have no recourse to do a thing about it (the poor).

8 hours ago, Right To Left said:

France to pay back all the money they stole from Haiti

Good luck with that.

Sad part is if they ever did, you would be making a select few officials incredibly rich, while the country would still be one of the poorest in the world.

I don't blame those fleeing, as they understand their government and know nothing will change.

The nature of the Haitian. We are incredibly community based. Hospitable. 

This very nature makes it so easy for money to slip from one hand to the next, and budgets to get corrupted.

My wife's mom is in politics in the Philippines just as am from a political family in Haiti. She always felt pressured to help everyone, and to the tune of even giving much of her pay to starving kids as she can't bear to see that level of human suffering.

Those who genuinely want to help, would lose their minds at the scale of the problem, and those who want to help themselves will do just fine, as you will be surrounded by enablers.

Add to this, how low many officials get paid, along with how low the police are paid, and you have a monumental challenge on your hands to keep money where it belongs.

President Jovenel Moise was murdered, because he squeezed a bit too tight on the corruption,  so a hit was put out on him.

Again, poor country. So this was an inside job. 

You literally can't trust anyone in your circle ones murmurs begin of people wanting you gone, turning to a fever pitch.

[Nationalist]

Fix your own home before trying to fix another nation.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Fix your own home before trying to fix another nation.

I would have to agree. 

[Aristides]

Give the place back to France.

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, Aristides said:

Give the place back to France.

Spoken like a true White Anglo-saxon colonialist.

[Guest]

On 3/9/2023 at 4:10 PM, Aristides said:

Give the place back to France.

Haiti is still mired in paying off forced debts from French banks when they fought for their independence (taking a horrible deal preventing an invasion), they also admitted to forcing the coup that ousted ex president Jean Bertrand Aristide when he demanded reparations. 

France technically still owns Haiti, when you consider the billions of dollars that it extorted out of it, after pillaging the country out of so many of its resources.

Haiti is in a position where it has had its legs cut off, and is trying to learn how to stand, forget walking on its own against impossible odds.

[Guest]

I mean, Haiti is a lost cause without outside help. 

It boils down to whether the US are OK with this becoming a massive humanitarian crisis if mass famine should overtake the nation, making already desperate people, that much more desperate and scrambling for the US and Canada.

[athos]

What is international community???

[August1991]

I am tired of this nonsense: Haiti is like Baltimore or Jamaica.

=====

No one 400 years ago could take a derivative. Now, some 5% of the world's population understand calculus.

My ancestors were alive at the time of Christ. We are survivors. My genes survived. 

Edited March 12, 2023 by August1991

[August1991]

Haiti specifically? Look at South Korea.

In Haiti - like in Canada - zillions of dollars don't help.

In Canada, self-government matters - sovereignty.

[August1991]

I have never been to Haiti but I suspect that many leftist do-gooders have caused greater harm.

You know, the people who travel to do good.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, August1991 said:

I have never been to Haiti

I have quite a few times, but feel hand outs don't work. It creates a dependency, or in the case of Haiti, more pressure for more funds, while immense sums of money go missing.

Giving money to one of the most corrupt countries on this planet, is (unfortunately) a bad idea.

There is a deep distrust between military intervention and the general population. 

Law and order would only be held while being occupied.

Its not a long term solution.

[Guest]

I see it like one of my friends who got into street problems. I gave him advice, but he was a grown man, so it wasn't my job to save him. 

Sadly left to their own devices, some countries are doomed to fail.

Some people just can't be saved, and here's to hoping as a sovereign nation,  that Haiti will figure it out.

[Right To Left]

On 3/9/2023 at 5:34 AM, Perspektiv said:

Good luck with that.

Sad part is if they ever did, you would be making a select few officials incredibly rich, while the country would still be one of the poorest in the world.

I don't blame those fleeing, as they understand their government and know nothing will change.

And how do you detach Haiti's poverty from the powerful foreign (US, Cdn. and French) corporations who are profiting from agribusiness and sweatshop industries that have been set up to take advantage of the poorest people in the western hemisphere?

Whenever Haiti gets a government that has any concern for the helping the poor, they get couped by the CIA at the behest of foreign capital. 

If they all left, Haiti would be better off, because then Haitians could be producing their own food for their own population, rather than working as slaves for foreign interests! 

Quote

President Jovenel Moise was murdered, because he squeezed a bit too tight on the corruption,  so a hit was put out on him.

And who ordered the hit?