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Should First Nations have their own country?


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"

Collective vision for the BC First Nations Justice Strategy

Research and community engagement with BC First Nations and justice system partners culminated in this 2019 vision for the Justice Strategy:

Transforming the relationship of First Nations with the criminal justice system through Nation to Nation partnerships, with a goal of advancing First Nations’ self-determination and self-governance through the application of First Nation laws, traditions, and jurisdictions, making changes to the existing system and its administration, and building capacity for Nations to increase holistic wellness, safety and security for their communities.

– BC First Nations Justice Summit participants, 2019"

It appears abundantly clear FN leadership want to create a separate legal system for FN.  So how would this work and who would pay for it?  What about the fact many FN people live in non-native society such as towns and cities across Canada.  What justice system would they be dealt with in?  How could people who committed crimes within non-native society and harmed non-natives be tried and punished in a all-native justice system?  

Since they say their objective is self-determination and self-governance, would it make more sense to find a piece of land and give it to the natives who want total independence and place them there.  It would essentially be a separate country and there would have to be borders with security and passports for everyone to cross.  All natives could be given the option of choosing which country they wish to be a citizen of and given citizenship of the one they choose.  

I don't see any reasonable solution to the direction we are heading in now if they hold the idea that they must have self-determination and self-government within Canada.  I cannot see how that can work within Canada.

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15 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Since they say their objective is self-determination and self-governance, would it make more sense to find a piece of land and give it to the natives who want total independence and place them there.  It would essentially be a separate country and there would have to be borders with security and passports for everyone to cross.

That's a good idea. They could have North and South America and the rest of us should go back where we came from.

The fellow who trained me has always said his ancestors had a too lax immigration system

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1 minute ago, Queenmandy85 said:

They could have North and South America and the rest of us should go back where we came from.

I suppose that red power radicals would like to send us all back where our ancestors came from, but I don't know of anyone who would support that idea.   I think a lot of people would support the idea of giving them their own territory and giving them the choice of which country they want to live in and swear allegiance to.  The ones who want independence would finally have their wish fulfilled.  Canada is not going to give its territory back to the natives and the existing idea of trying to let natives have it both ways is not working very well.  They are determined to have self-government and independence.

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9 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

That's a good idea. They could have North and South America and the rest of us should go back where we came from.

The fellow who trained me has always said his ancestors had a too lax immigration system

I suppose if anyone has to go back to where they came from, everyone should have to. 

That would make for an interesting world.

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16 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

Never mind that it wouldn’t be legal to do so.  

Right, and they wouldn't want to do it anyways.

You have to give them a certain amount of self-determination.

Indigenous bands also aren't a homogenous group, they have their own customs, cultures, and ways of governance etc.

We're all stuck together and we have to make our work for everyone.

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1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Right, and they wouldn't want to do it anyways.

You have to give them a certain amount of self-determination.

Indigenous bands also aren't a homogenous group, they have their own customs, cultures, and ways of governance etc.

We're all stuck together and we have to make our work for everyone.

Stuck together yes, but we are so divided almost like it was planed that way.

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On 2/27/2023 at 5:05 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

These people are connected to the land they live on.  You can't just move them all to another piece of land and call it a day.  It's not going to work.

Let me ask you this. Are natives human beings or are they not? Because so many people seem to get the idea they're not really humans but some kind of otherly ethereal beings. People can come here from every corner of the globe, from big cities and small towns, from deserts and farms and tropical jungles, from the most unsophisticated, backwater rural areas that have never seen a building more than three stories tall. They can all come here, adapt, learn the language, settle in, get a job, etc. etc.

But not natives! Oh my God! Never! We can't ask THEM to join Canada and integrate and get jobs! We must instead keep spending tens of billions while they wallow in poverty in their shitty little reserves - forever. 

They're not humans like us. We can't expect them to live like humans do.

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2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Let me ask you this. Are natives human beings or are they not? Because so many people seem to get the idea they're not really humans but some kind of otherly ethereal beings. People can come here from every corner of the globe, from big cities and small towns, from deserts and farms and tropical jungles, from the most unsophisticated, backwater rural areas that have never seen a building more than three stories tall. They can all come here, adapt, learn the language, settle in, get a job, etc. etc.

But not natives! Oh my God! Never! We can't ask THEM to join Canada and integrate and get jobs! We must instead keep spending tens of billions while they wallow in poverty in their shitty little reserves - forever. 

They're not humans like us. We can't expect them to live like humans do.

They can choose to live wherever they want.   If they want to remain in isolated rural communities with little industry and have the results that come with that life that's their choice.  As long as we're providing them the services we provide everyone else in small rural communities and upholding the law they can't really complain.

A free people should be able to live the lives they want to live.

 

Edited by Moonlight Graham
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On 2/27/2023 at 4:03 PM, Moonlight Graham said:

You have to give them a certain amount of self-determination.

Indigenous bands also aren't a homogenous group, they have their own customs, cultures, and ways of governance etc.

That's the reason I asked should natives who wish to be independent be given a piece of land where they could be self-governing and have their own country with a border?   Many native leaders are claiming they want to be self-governing.  Since that can't work within Canada and would conflict with Canadian laws and system within Canada's territory, why not give them their own territory and let them have at it.  Just one condition.  They must pick which country they are going to be a part of:  either stay in Canada and obey our laws and quit demanding self-government and self-determination and whatever else   OR   take out citizenship and stay in their own territory.  There would have to be a border and essentially no crossing back and forth except under certain conditions, including a passport and laws governing visiting.  Those who wish to remain part of Canada would have to swear allegiance to Canada and agree to the conditions which would include no more demanding special rights and privileges for FNs.

Edited by blackbird
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43 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Because most people want to determine their own destiny and don't want to be controlled by a central power.

Just ask Quebec and Alberta.

Do you really care how aboriginals govern theirv territory?  As long as it doesn't affect me I don't care.

The problems with native self government are the same as with any society.  The governments are not necessarily competent, democratic, or incorruptible.

I think it behooves the government giving them the power to oversee its use.  There should certainly be complete transparency and accountability regarding any funds that come from the rest of Canada, and any complaints by members of a band that their needs are not being met should be investigated and acted upon.

The First Nations Financial Transparency Act was a good step in the right direction, but apparently it's no longer being enforced?  I could be wrong about that.

Edited by bcsapper
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1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Because most people want to determine their own destiny and don't want to be controlled by a central power.

Just ask Quebec and Alberta.

Do you really care how aboriginals govern theirv territory?  As long as it doesn't affect me I don't care.

It's not their territory. There is no reason they should have any more control over it than the municipal council of Timmons does over their city. These people are not independent, and every dollar they spend comes from the taxpayers. If you want to be independent pay your own way. And that goes for Quebec and Alberta, too.

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1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

They can choose to live wherever they want.   If they want to remain in isolated rural communities with little industry and have the results that come with that life that's their choice.  As long as we're providing them the services we provide everyone else in small rural communities and upholding the law they can't really complain.

A free people should be able to live the lives they want to live.

We don't provide any services to people who decide they want to live in the boonies. No electricity, no running water, no telephone service, and precious little in the way of law and order. If you want to set up in the boonies you pay for everything yourself. The government won't fly you into a big city when you need a medical appointment. It won't put a big water filtration system in place, nor provide you with a generator, nor build you a house, nor roads. 

The exception, of course, is for natives. We'll do all that and more for native reserves.

 

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1 hour ago, blackbird said:

That's the reason I asked should natives who wish to be independent be given a piece of land where they could be self-governing and have their own country with a border?   Many native leaders are claiming they want to be self-governing.  Since that can't work within Canada and would conflict with Canadian laws and system within Canada's territory, why not give them their own territory and let them have at it.  Just one condition.  They must pick which country they are going to be a part of:  either stay in Canada and obey our laws and quit demanding self-government and self-determination and whatever else   OR   take out citizenship and stay in their own territory.  There would have to be a border and essentially no crossing back and forth except under certain conditions, including a passport and laws governing visiting.  Those who wish to remain part of Canada would have to swear allegiance to Canada and agree to the conditions which would include no more demanding special rights and privileges for FNs.

Have you actually read a modern treaty? You really should, I'm pretty sure they're shorter than the Bible which you've probably read 10 times by now. You will find nothing that mentions new country's, putting non-natives on reserves or making them 'go home' although I suspect many natives and non-natives alike would cheer if you did.

As for me where am I going to go home to, Earth?  Oh, wait a minute. 

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