On vaccines

[myata]

I count myself as a rational and reasonable human being. I'm interested in and follow news in science. I recognize that vaccines have been highly effective in eliminating terrible diseases such as smallpox, poliomielitis, mumps and others. And we also know and just had another chance to observe that the distance and the edge between real science, manipulation of science, misleading pseudo science and so on can be quite thin. So I'd like to propose a genuine, straightforward, no bull description, understanding if not a formal definition of the term "vaccine".

P.S. in real, genuine science we are always open to new things, findings, trends, inventions, laws. And if and when we do come up with something new, of ours, we do not create confusion with terms and concepts already known previously, quietly changing or modifying their meaning. No. That would be a cause for concern. Why would one do that in genuine, open science? In it we do not aim to mislead, mix up and confuse. Quite the opposite: to find, understand and clarify.

And so, vaccines:

1. Provide a clear and essential benefit to the recipient. Such as significant reduction of risk and/or severity of the condition.

2. Have to provide a clear, measurable and significant benefit to the general community. Otherwise it is a preventative treatment, prophylactics, therapy. No need to create confusion.

3. Have to carry minimal risk of adverse effects for the recipient. The natural standard is the risk of a severe condition. A genuine vaccine cannot have comparable or even higher risk than the condition it is trying to prevent it wouldn't make any sense not just in science but by sheer common sense.

4. And not in the least, the significant preventative effect is expected to last a considerable time. More than a year likely. We call it "flu shot" for a reason, do we not? By the way, what would be the essential difference, why is it that one is a "shot" and the other, the v-word? Do we need an exSpert for that, with an outrageous pay direct from our pocket? And while at it, we used to call it "a booster" when administered once or twice per lifetime, not bi-monthly for eternity, that used to be called a chronic condition treatment.

This is not science. This is deceptive confusion around science with the intent to mislead and manipulate. And so I'd like to bring the question up for an open and honest discussion. Maybe it doesn't make sense? Maybe there are flaws, of logic or fact? This is how science works and why it has worked so far. Because every finding and conclusion are robustly verified and can be trusted. Not some creative bs that changes with the daily direction of the wind.

And now, for a practical example, based on the definition above and conditional on its validity, what would be the chance of branding preventative Covid-19 treatments in the age group 0-12, in good faith, honesty and scientific or professional competence as "vaccines"? How many tests would it pass, out of four?

Edited February 26, 2023 by myata

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, myata said:

I count myself as a rational and reasonable human being. I..........

At that point I knew the rest would be bunk LOL

Time to move on and get over it.

What is a Vaccine?

"Vaccination is a simple, safe, and effective way of protecting you against harmful diseases, before you come into contact with them. It uses your body’s natural defenses to build resistance to specific infections and makes your immune system stronger.

Vaccines train your immune system to create antibodies, just as it does when it’s exposed to a disease. However, because vaccines contain only killed or weakened forms of germs like viruses or bacteria, they do not cause the disease or put you at risk of its complications."

https://www.who.int/news-room/questions-and-answers/item/vaccines-and-immunization-what-is-vaccination

"A vaccine is a type of medicine that trains the body’s immune system so that it can fight a disease it has not come into contact with before. Vaccines are designed to prevent disease, rather than treat a disease once you have caught it."

https://vk.ovg.ox.ac.uk/how-do-vaccines-work

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vaccine

Edited February 26, 2023 by ExFlyer

[OftenWrong]

4 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

because vaccines contain only killed or weakened forms of germs like viruses or bacteria, they do not...

Right, so the mrna clot-shot isn't one of them.

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

Right, so the mrna clot-shot isn't one of them.

Broad misconception. Science advance regularly, some minds and perceptions lag behind.

"What is the difference between mRNA vaccine and traditional vaccine?

How do COVID-19 messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines work? Traditional vaccines put a weakened or inactivated germ into our bodies. Messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines, like the Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines, teach cells how to make a protein that triggers an immune response if someone gets infected."

https://www.mskcc.org/coronavirus/what-s-different-about-messenger-rna-vaccines-covid-19

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243

Edited February 26, 2023 by ExFlyer

[myata]

12 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Right, so the mrna clot-shot isn't one of them.

Give an id... no scratch that, an exSpert enough time and space, don't tie their hands and they will shoot themselves in the foot (or somewhere; or somebody). The only outcome that can be predicted with confidence.

Edited February 27, 2023 by myata

[myata]

11 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

between mRNA vaccine

And one more time, for the sensory disadvantaged here, which of the obvious, common sense qualities of the regular, conventional understanding of the term listed in the OP, apply to mRNA prophylactic agents in the age group 0-12?

[ExFlyer]

6 hours ago, myata said:

And one more time, for the sensory disadvantaged here, which of the obvious, common sense qualities of the regular, conventional understanding of the term listed in the OP, apply to mRNA prophylactic agents in the age group 0-12?

Huh??

You just make stuff up LOL

 

Edited February 27, 2023 by ExFlyer

[OftenWrong]

17 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Broad misconception. Science advance regularly, some minds and perceptions lag behind.

You gave the definition, clown-fella.

So go back and fix it then ?

[ExFlyer]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

You gave the definition, clown-fella.

So go back and fix it then ?

Gave several links. Read them.  No need to fix anything.

Like I said, "clown-fella", "Science advances regularly, some minds and perceptions lag behind. ".

Edited February 27, 2023 by ExFlyer
spelling correction

[OftenWrong]

3 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Gave several links. Red them.  No need to fix anything.

Like I said, "clown-fella", "Science advances regularly, some minds and perceptions lag behind. ".

I don't need to. You gave the traditional definition of a vaccine, which everyone already knows. So that is a waste of forum space. As to your dirty links, I won't touch those. I'm talking about the quotes you gave, which by your admission are completely incorrect.

The new "substance" is a wholly different technology that turns YOU INTO A VACCINE.

[myata]

Honest, in good faith professional competent science does not intend to mislead and confuse. It does not take a concept that everybody knows and understands and all of a sudden, pretends that as of now it means something quite different or entirely different. That's dishonest pseudo science and you or no one can tell at which point it would turn into real manipulation with real risks to the society.

Edited February 27, 2023 by myata

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, OftenWrong said:

I don't need to. You gave the traditional definition of a vaccine, which everyone already knows. So that is a waste of forum space. As to your dirty links, I won't touch those. I'm talking about the quotes you gave, which by your admission are completely incorrect.

The new "substance" is a wholly different technology that turns YOU INTO A VACCINE.

Bottom line, its vaccine, effective and serves the purpose..

"What is the difference between mRNA vaccine and traditional vaccine?

How do COVID-19 messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines work? Traditional vaccines put a weakened or inactivated germ into our bodies. Messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines, like the Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines, teach cells how to make a protein that triggers an immune response if someone gets infected."

https://www.mskcc.org/coronavirus/what-s-different-about-messenger-rna-vaccines-covid-19

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243

Edited February 27, 2023 by ExFlyer

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

Bottom line, its vaccine, effective and serves the purpose..

"What is the difference between mRNA vaccine and traditional vaccine?

How do COVID-19 messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines work? Traditional vaccines put a weakened or inactivated germ into our bodies. Messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines, like the Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines, teach cells how to make a protein that triggers an immune response if someone gets infected."

https://www.mskcc.org/coronavirus/what-s-different-about-messenger-rna-vaccines-covid-19

 

https://www.nature.com/articles/nrd.2017.243

Semantics

Words to find comfort by, for those afflicted with paranoia of the microbiome.

A form of psychosis.

But hey, who am I to take your bi- monthly clot shot away from you? Go on and roll em up, roll em up.

Darwin'll sort it all out.

 

[ExFlyer]

9 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Semantics

Words to find comfort by, for those afflicted with paranoia of the microbiome.

A form of psychosis.

But hey, who am I to take your bi- monthly clot shot away from you? Go on and roll em up, roll em up.

Darwin'll sort it all out.

 

Semantics?? Well, yes "the branch of linguistics and logic concerned with meaning".

The quote does have logic and meaning.

Psychosis is a term used to describe when people lose some contact with reality.

Well, neither I nor the Memorial Sloane Kettering Cancer Centre (from whence the statement came) have lost contact with reality but, it seems you have certainly lost contact.  I am pretty sure Sloane Kettering is far more intelligent about this (and most other medical situations) than you and most other anti vaxxers

Edited February 27, 2023 by ExFlyer

[myata]

3 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccines, like the Pfizer and Moderna COVID-19 vaccines, teach cells how to make a protein that

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

The quote does have logic and meaning.

You are either clueless, or deliberately vague to the point of manipulation and deception, just like the piece you quoted. What we call "vaccines" bona fide and based on the experience so far, including flu "shot" that we didn't call that for another obvious reason, were based on natural agents, made safe or safer or relatively safe, to which body itself decided how to react (and sure, each body individually).

With mRNA, you inject instructions to produce certain proteins. They are not natural. The instructions, volume of the agent are the same for everybody. Bodies can react differently to the same amount of instructing agent and for some, it can carry additional risk. That is quite obviously, not the same thing.

They may be great treatments, innovative, useful and saving lives. But it's a tall order to call them "vaccines", using the same word. It may not have been known in the immediate period after the first release. But by now anybody can see that they have few (and in some age groups, none) of the attributes of regular vaccines. Still they insist on spreading confusion and misleading, generating mistrust. This is not science, professional and in good faith. Maybe the opposite of it.

Edited February 27, 2023 by myata

[ExFlyer]

39 minutes ago, myata said:

You are either clueless, or deliberately vague t.....

...

With mRNA, y....

Not my words, they are links from medical associations or hospitals.

I am so sorry, in order for you to insult me, I must first value your opinion..

I suppose you are much smarter..... NOT!!!!

How arrogant are you to think you deserve to go through life with no one ever saying anything that you don’t agree with or like?

 

[myata]

33 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

they are links

Continue: to baby food pseudo science, deliberately muddling the question to avoid inconvenient questions. But all information is at one's fingertips these days. There's no excuses.

[ExFlyer]

10 minutes ago, myata said:

Continue: to baby food pseudo science, deliberately muddling the question to avoid inconvenient questions. But all information is at one's fingertips these days. There's no excuses.

Yup, there ya go.

You are smarter than Sloane Kettering Cancer Centre. You should have them consult with you LOL

You are the reason this country has to put directions on bottles of shampoo

Edited February 27, 2023 by ExFlyer

[myata]

11 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

You should have them consult with you LOL

You mean, you never have to use your brain because someone already done all necessary thinking for you? What if they decide some day to rename bum brush to a toothbrush, works well with you? For your own good of course, how else.

Edited February 28, 2023 by myata

[ExFlyer]

7 hours ago, myata said:

You mean, you never have to use your brain because someone already done all necessary thinking for you? What if they decide some day to rename bum brush to a toothbrush, works well with you? For your own good of course, how else.

I use my brain all the time.

I don't have to use much of it though to be able to differentiate between blowhards with dr google opinions  vs and medical professionals and associations. LOL

[Goddess]

On 2/27/2023 at 6:29 AM, OftenWrong said:

The new "substance" is a wholly different technology that turns YOU INTO A VACCINE.

There was a study that came out recently, (I'll try to find it again) that they are finding mRNA in the blood up to 28 days later.  28 days was the longest they had data for, so it's likely it is produced in the body for much longer than that. It's already been found in breast milk, semen, various organs of the body.  It's turns your body into a spike protein factory.  There is no mechanism in the jabs to stop it either. 

I'm not sure most people understand the implications of this.  There was a reason why the public was assured that the mRNA stayed in the arm and dissipated quickly.  Because if it didn't do that - it would be very very bad.

Finding it in the bloodstream - is very bad.  This means it crosses the blood-brain barrier.  This is a huge No-No in vaccinology.

Your body just keeps producing spike, which attacks whatever organ it can get to. It means sudden onsets of hypertension, MS, Guillan-Barre, Bell's, turbo cancers, CJD.....these are now vaccine injuries, injuries that would not have occurred if your body hadn't been turned into a spike protein factory.

Degraded mRNA has also been found post-jab.  Introducing degraded RNA that circulates to all organs of the body, is very bad.

 

 

[ExFlyer]

4 hours ago, Goddess said:

There was a study that came out recently, (I'll try to find it again) that they are finding mRNA in the blood up to 28 days later.  28 days was the longest they had data for, so it's likely it is produced in the body for much longer than that. It's already been found in breast milk, semen, various organs of the body.  It's turns your body into a spike protein factory.  There is no mechanism in the jabs to stop it either. 

I'm not sure most people understand the implications of this.  There was a reason why the public was assured that the mRNA stayed in the arm and dissipated quickly.  Because if it didn't do that - it would be very very bad.

Finding it in the bloodstream - is very bad.  This means it crosses the blood-brain barrier.  This is a huge No-No in vaccinology.

Your body just keeps producing spike, which attacks whatever organ it can get to. It means sudden onsets of hypertension, MS, Guillan-Barre, Bell's, turbo cancers, CJD.....these are now vaccine injuries, injuries that would not have occurred if your body hadn't been turned into a spike protein factory.

Degraded mRNA has also been found post-jab.  Introducing degraded RNA that circulates to all organs of the body, is very bad.

 

 

More made up bunk

"How long does mRNA last in a cell?

 

The cells make copies of the spike protein and the mRNA is quickly degraded (within a few days). The cell breaks the mRNA up into small harmless pieces."

https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/where-mrna-vaccines-and-spike-proteins-go

[myata]

Note this. Not everybody jumped on the happily mindless bandwagon. No "vaccine" recommendation for healthy children under 12. In Canada at 6 months of age, you're good to go. Why? What association ever demonstrated that it's supported by evidence, or even compatible with medical ethics standard?

"This recommendation includes children from the age of 12 and those children from the age of 5 that are extra vulnerable to upper respiratory tract infections."

[OftenWrong]

11 minutes ago, myata said:

Why?

"Because they can."   ?

[myata]

19 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

"Because they can."

There's a bad, nasty trend developing in that age group. If confirmed, there will be another scandal and possibly another outrageously expensive and absolutely useless "inquiry" because see, in plain sight already: they don't change anything. They don't need to. "Because they can".

Others though, try to use their brains to avoid dumb, unnecessary decisions and dangerous consequences in the first place. To each, their own.

Edited March 1, 2023 by myata