Fat Trudeau becomes unglued when a Canadian doesn't support his corrupt war in Ukraine

[OftenWrong]

40 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

Having a hostile nation fall on hard times like that makes our lives safer.

"War is peace."

 

[CdnFox]

11 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

"War is peace."

 

Well, war for them is peace for us

You'll never fight a war more inexpensively than we're fighting this one.

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, CdnFox said:

Well, war for them is peace for us

You'll never fight a war more inexpensively than we're fighting this one.

Maybe it all seems good right now, but it's like kids playing with matches. It might not even be intent, it just takes an accident.

More serious is there's no realistic end-game. What is the end game that's achievable?

The Rus sees this as an existential war now. That's what Putin said, this is the western world against us, coming to destroy us.

If we wipe out all their planes and tanks, and ships, finally they only have one weapon left to use. So, be realistic. What's the reasonable end game?

and don't you bullshit me, little man.

[Moonbox]

13 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Noone sees any evidence of this great Russian attack on NATO. If anything...NATO will start firing into Russia. Then what? Oh I know...

Nobody is saying that Russia is attacking NATO, or plans to attack NATO, so that's a nice strawman you've set up to argue against Mr.  

13 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Ya know...I am so tired of this endless fear porn thing that I could start puking like that oddball who keeps puking on everything he posts.

and yet you're the one who's spent the last year nattering about nuclear holocaust, and the oft-threatened RUssIan EScALATion.  ?

[CdnFox]

6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Maybe it all seems good right now, but it's like kids playing with matches. It might not even be intent, it just takes an accident.

The chances of an incident go up considerably if we do nothing. We were doing nothing and war broke out with ukraine. How long till he takes a poke at poland (again) and suddenly it's even more tense.

The reasoning your using is perhaps understandable but it's the same reasoning Chamberlin used just before ww2.  Doing nothing encourages them to do more till they see where that line is.

6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

More serious is there's no realistic end-game. What is the end game that's achievable?

The Rus sees this as an existential war now. That's what Putin said, this is the western world against us, coming to destroy us.

That's not how he sees it.  That's how he tries to sell it. But he knows the truth of it. He got two fists and a foot into the tar baby and the west is using it to humiliate him and weaken him.  As to the exit, hard to say but there are a number of possibilities. Zelazny may not want to negotiate a peace that involves giving up any territory but he also can't continue if the allies stop giving him arms.  And the russians may not like whatever deal is put on the table but they know the allies can always send even more gear and russia could lose.' And they can bluster about nukes all they want but everyone knows it's bullshit.

So - at the end of the day the only way to deal with a bully is to stand up to them.  Sure - there's an element of risk but there's even more risk doing nothing

6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

If we wipe out all their planes and tanks, and ships, finally they only have one weapon left to use. So, be realistic. What's the reasonable end game?

Well reasonable endgames would include russia keeps crimea and part of the donbas but ukraine either signs on with nato or does a nato lite contract and is firmly in the western sphere.  Or retreat to prewar lines but the us says they won't let ukraine into nato ever.  When both sides get really sick of it and one gets the upper hand we'll see negotiatons start. Too soon just yet.

And russia wont' be using 'every plane and every tank'.  And if that does happen they will retreat, as they have always done. They won't be interested in losing their whole country to a nuclear war.

6 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

and don't you bullshit me, little man.

DUDE!!!!  - family forum here, put your 'little man' away, and stop talking to it for that matter

[myata]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

The Rus sees this as an existential war now. That's what Putin said, this is the western world against us, coming to destroy us.

You want to take preposterous bluster of a dictator pushed into a corner for the real thing? Haha. Russia has done it free times in less than a century, a social collapse per generation, guaranteed by your totalitarian Supreme Macho. They only follow the lifecycle that is natural for them no need to be dramatic. And they can do that in their little zoo or right next to you... or if you happen to look weak (by the way how many of those great Leopards can be started?) make you join the fun (like they ever asked, anybody) with their new no-bounds buddies that would be fun, no?

[Nationalist]

7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

First time?  I don't think so, there's been several similar confrontations between a nuclear power and another by proxy like this.

Korea. Afghanistan - BOTH ways. Arguably vietnam. We've seen this before.

Well first off that land is important to the west. It's a significant source of the worlds food and a major border for a number of our allies. Having it under friendly control is in fact important.

But it's more about weakening a serious adversary. Russia is a threat, period. They've shown it many times. And not just a threat directly but they frequently arm nations hostile to us and our allies.

So it is absolutely and massively in our interests to see them severely weakened like this and to have their prestige knocked down. It weakens their influence in the world and also the loss of so much military equipment and men which cannot easily be replaced (especially the equipment) makes it very hard for them to think about any invasions or military actions anywhere else for quite some time.

Having a hostile nation fall on hard times like that makes our lives safer. And it'll be a while before they think about any more 'adventures' like that.

Do you really think the Ukraine can win that region back without NATO troops? Highly unlikely. 

Russia and the USA have never squared off like that. The risk is monumental and the Polish government is itching to send in their troops. Once that happens, all of Europe becomes a target. Then what?

America is also depleting their stock. If they commit full to Ukraine, who's gonna protect the mainland? The Libbies of the west coast? Lol...they could tweenkie the Chinese to death I guess...

No...a hot war directly with Russia is a fools errand right now...and likey will always be. Especially over the Donbas. 

[Nationalist]

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Nobody is saying that Russia is attacking NATO, or plans to attack NATO, so that's a nice strawman you've set up to argue against Mr.  

and yet you're the one who's spent the last year nattering about nuclear holocaust, and the oft-threatened RUssIan EScALATion.  ?

Oh horseshit. 

Every discussion about this turns to a Russian invasion of a NATO nation. You have said many times that history of NAZI Germany shows that Russia will not stop at Donbas. Hell the post directly below yours discusses it.

Can you be any more disingenuous?

[OftenWrong]

7 hours ago, CdnFox said:

We were doing nothing and war broke out with ukraine.

If pnly we were doing nothing. The US and EU did things to provoke the war.

[Moonbox]

4 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Every discussion about this turns to a Russian invasion of a NATO nation.

No it doesn't.  I'd challenge you to find a single post where anyone anywhere here argued a NATO nation would get invaded.  The only people talking about this are donkeys like you parroting Putin's threats of EsCAlaTION. 

4 hours ago, Nationalist said:

You have said many times that history of NAZI Germany shows that Russia will not stop at Donbas. Hell the post directly below yours discusses it.

 

There is plenty more of Ukraine left after the Donbas, and there is plenty of non-NATO territory on Russia's borders to take.  

4 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Can you be any more disingenuous?

Sure, because nothing I've said here is.  Please go ahead and find those quotes again.  As usual, we all know you'll fail.  

[CdnFox]

5 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Do you really think the Ukraine can win that region back without NATO troops? Highly unlikely. 

For certain.  Provided they get enough gear and support they absolutely can. I would remind you they've taken back more than what's left already, and the russian troops seem poorly equipped and demoralized. I don't think they're getting quite enough gear to do that decisively at the moment but they absolutely could.

 

5 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Russia and the USA have never squared off like that. The risk is monumental and the Polish government is itching to send in their troops. Once that happens, all of Europe becomes a target. Then what?

Sorry but that's just not happening. Nobody is even discussing that possiblity. And poland is not 'itching' to send it's troops anywhere.

The only way nato gets involved is if there's nukes used.

5 hours ago, Nationalist said:

America is also depleting their stock. If they commit full to Ukraine, who's gonna protect the mainland? The Libbies of the west coast? Lol...they could tweenkie the Chinese to death I guess...

They have kept more than enough for their own uses and are spooling up production. In fact, they've kept enough so that if they had to reinforce Taiwan in short order they could. Eventually the strain of keeping ukraine armed will actually affect their economy but not by much. American industry is quite capable of gearing up and turning out a lot of product and more importantly you can bet those wepaons manufacturers have been looking hard at how their product and others have been performing in the war and are looking to incorporate that into the next generation of products.

5 hours ago, Nationalist said:

No...a hot war directly with Russia is a fools errand right now...and likey will always be. Especially over the Donbas. 

nobody's talking about doing that.

[SpankyMcFarland]

19 hours ago, Nationalist said:

China just committed to closer alliance with Russia...and interestingly enough...are offering to broker a peace deal.

I’d be more worried about a friendly China than a hostile Ukraine if I were Russian. Putin may end up losing a big chunk of Siberia to his new friends and masters. 

[CdnFox]

40 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

I’d be more worried about a friendly China than a hostile Ukraine if I were Russian. Putin may end up losing a big chunk of Siberia to his new friends and masters. 

This exactly.  China isn't anyone's friend. The only time they'll offer to have russia's back is if they intend to put a knife in it shortly. China can make russia their biatch pretty fast.

China has to be careful though. Russia cannot possibly make up the purchasing power of the US. IF the US decides to replace china's manufacturing another way, then china will be broke,

[OftenWrong]

10 hours ago, myata said:

You want to take preposterous bluster of a dictator pushed into a corner for the real thing? Haha. Russia has done it free times in less than a century, a social collapse per generation, guaranteed by your totalitarian Supreme Macho. They only follow the lifecycle that is natural for them no need to be dramatic. And they can do that in their little zoo or right next to you... or if you happen to look weak (by the way how many of those great Leopards can be started?) make you join the fun (like they ever asked, anybody) with their new no-bounds buddies that would be fun, no?

Everyone knows what will happen if you corner a dog.

Wise men know that you should give the dog a place to run away, if you want to avoid catastrophe.

Don't want to avoid catastrophe? Fill yer boots fella.

Fill yer boooots  

[OftenWrong]

48 minutes ago, CdnFox said:

This exactly.  China isn't anyone's friend. The only time they'll offer to have russia's back is if they intend to put a knife in it shortly. China can make russia their biatch pretty fast.

China has to be careful though. Russia cannot possibly make up the purchasing power of the US. IF the US decides to replace china's manufacturing another way, then china will be broke,

Keep in mind that, you ain't anyone's friend.

And neither is the USA.

[myata]

55 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Everyone knows what will happen if you corner a dog.

Like, Hitler in the old times?

55 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

that you should give the dog a place to run away,

Sure he can run away: back to Mother Russia. Or would you rather have him run to Poland, Lithuania, Alaska?

Edited February 27, 2023 by myata

[OftenWrong]

Just now, myata said:

Like, Hitler?

Sure he can run away, that is, back to Mother Russia. Or would you rather have him run to Poland, Lithuania, Alaska?

I don't really care where he goes. I just don't want him to push the shiny red button.

Just one of those gets started, and the whole house of cards will come a-tumblin down.

And if anyone thinks these people in charge are smart enough to be trustworthy, they may need to have some of their screws checked for tightness.    

[myata]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

I just don't want him to push the shiny red button.

Yes there was a good time to think about that and it was about two decades back. And we screwed up, again no surprises there. And now the only choice we still have is to let the bully has his way and see if it would make him stop somehow; or stand up to him and show him the way back. Really at this point wishing and hoping aren't doing anything. Where's Santa Claus to send these wishes to?

[WestCanMan]

On 2/26/2023 at 5:05 AM, Perspektiv said:

This war was highly [easily] preventable.

If Ukraine committed fewer war crimes and didn't threaten Russia with bringing NATO to their doorstep, there would absolutely not be a war. 

Edited February 27, 2023 by WestCanMan

[WestCanMan]

22 hours ago, Nationalist said:

China just committed to closer alliance with Russia...and interestingly enough...are offering to broker a peace deal.

It will be an utter humiliation for the USA if China shows the world that they are the lead dog here, on such a large stage.

Xi = ? ?

Biden = ??

[myata]

44 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Ukraine committed fewer war crimes

I sigh in despair watching rightwing fans kicking trudeaus of this world. Could one glaring lie be any better than another? Sigh. And back again.

[Nationalist]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

No it doesn't.  I'd challenge you to find a single post where anyone anywhere here argued a NATO nation would get invaded.  The only people talking about this are donkeys like you parroting Putin's threats of EsCAlaTION. 

 

There is plenty more of Ukraine left after the Donbas, and there is plenty of non-NATO territory on Russia's borders to take.  

Sure, because nothing I've said here is.  Please go ahead and find those quotes again.  As usual, we all know you'll fail.  

Quote

...NATO and the EU understand lessons from history . You clearly don't because you're just towing the populist Conservative line that Putin is actually a Strong leader and the West should leave him to his goals. Again, I'm glad few leaders, that matter, are listening to you people.

Boges

Quote

The West however has to learn that Russia is another Nazi Germany in hiding

CITIZEN_2015

There's more, but I'm working and you can go look for yourself now.

[Moonbox]

5 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

There's more, but I'm working and you can go look for yourself now.

None of those say anything about Russia attacking NATO, but kudos for at least trying, for a change.  ?

5 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

There's more, but I'm working and you can go look for yourself now.

More what?  People talking about how Putin's aggression mimics 1930's Nazi Germany, or that appeasing aggressive dictatorships never ends well?  There's plenty of examples of that.  What's still missing is any mention of Russia rolling tanks into NATO territory, which is what I asked for.  

[CdnFox]

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Everyone knows what will happen if you corner a dog.

In most cases they submit. I think you meant beat a dog which is different.

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Wise men know that you should give the dog a place to run away, if you want to avoid catastrophe.

I don't think you understand dogs very well.  But in this case the Russians will not be 'cornered' - they'll have a whole big giant country to retreat into,

2 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Don't want to avoid catastrophe? Fill yer boots fella.

Fill yer boooots  

You know - it keeps getting pointed out that catastrophe is more likely by doing nothing or capitulating than it is by taking this kind of action. And you don't seem to have any response to that. Nor can you demonstrate how doing nothing would be less likely to lead to further conflict.

And you've obviously never trained dogs   Having done so myself i can tell you with certainty that if you have an intelligent dog then either YOU are going to be the boss or THEY are going to be the boss, and you absolutely do want to corner and confront them when that kind of challenge occurs and make sure they know with certainty that it's YOU.  And that zero shite will be taken from them and that challenging you will not end well.

And this is the same. Putin specifically and the russian leadership in general needs to understand that when they step out of line that others WILL take action and will not be putting up with their bullcrap and for certain they'll regret it.

So yeah - we'll be 'filling our boooooots' and sending the message to his nibs that bad things happen to little boys who step out of line.

Punching a vicious bully in the face till he goes home crying is rarely a bad strategy. Saves you a lot of fights in the future.

[OftenWrong]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Yes there was a good time to think about that and it was about two decades back. And we screwed up, again no surprises there. And now the only choice we still have is to let the bully has his way and see if it would make him stop somehow; or stand up to him and show him the way back. Really at this point wishing and hoping aren't doing anything. Where's Santa Claus to send these wishes to?

There was no problem prior to 2014, but bad things happened then. Those things explain why we are in this predicament today.

Once pandora's box was opened, the iniquity leakedout and it could not be closed again.

Even the Ukrainians had a double-take on Biden's recent promises to keep backing and funding the war "for as long as it takes."     

Perhaps the only difference in what you're saying vs me, is I don't give the west a pass on this. The war was started intentionally, by third parties.