The Left is Destroying Western Civilization

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Treebeard makes a virtue of homosexuality.  He’s part of the movement against “heteronormativity”, the most ridiculous cause to date, basically saying that anything that falls in the normative range, how the vast majority of humans act, is bad.  

homosexuality is ostensibly a healthy same sex relationship

the ancient Christians had no understanding of that

again, what the ancient Christians encountered was pederasty

in terms of being put to death for pederasty, that was the Jews who invoked that, not the Christians

[eyeball]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

No you’ll be in the ocean after the next major earthquake.  

The part of the coast I'm on is rolling towards North America so we'll actually be higher hereabouts. We're gaining a millimeter a year as well.

[TreeBeard]

9 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Leviticus is the third book of the Torah

those laws are Judaism not Christianity

The claim was about morality in the bible, not just the New Testament.   Leviticus is most certainly part of the bible.  

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 basically saying that anything that falls in the normative range, how the vast majority of humans act, is bad.  

that's very Christian in fact

the Great Awokening

the ancient Christians did not come from Judea, did not live in Judea

the story of Christ spread to the Roman Pagans

it was the Pagans who converted to Christianity, not the Jews

and in the ancient Christian world, they were tearing down what was "normative"

to include pederasty

[TreeBeard]

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Treebeard makes a virtue of homosexuality.  He’s part of the movement against “heteronormativity”, the most ridiculous cause to date, basically saying that anything that falls in the normative range, how the vast majority of humans act, is bad.  

No, things in the “normative range” are not “bad”.  Otherwise, I guess I’d hate myself?  
 

But things outside the “normative range” are not bad either.  Like being left-handed, while not being normal, is also not bad. 

[TreeBeard]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the ancient Christians had no understanding of that

Leviticus only mentions men.  It says nothing of children.  I think you are just making this up to suit your beliefs. 

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, TreeBeard said:

The claim was about morality in the bible, not just the New Testament.   Leviticus is most certainly part of the bible.  

the New Testament is the conclusion

the New Testament supplants the Torah within the Bible

that is the story of the book

[TreeBeard]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

the New Testament is the conclusion

the New Testament supplants the Torah within the Bible

that is the story of the book

Even if I grant this, my question was about the morality of killing men, as per Leviticus.  Was it moral when God said it in Leviticus, but became immoral later?  

[Dougie93]

Just now, TreeBeard said:

Leviticus only mentions men.  It says nothing of children.  I think you are just making this up to suit your beliefs. 

the passage is speaking to the young boys, telling them not to participate

the idea of homosexuality does not exist until the 19th century

there was no recognized homosexuality in the ancient Christian world

so they could not have had any position for nor against it

this has nothing do with my beliefs, it is logical extrapolation based on the historical record

[TreeBeard]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

the passage is speaking to the young boys, telling them not to participate

the idea of homosexuality does not exist until the 19th century

there was no recognized homosexuality in the ancient Christian world

so they could not have had any position for nor against it

this has nothing do with my beliefs, it is logical extrapolation based on the historical record

This is nonsense.  No one I have ever read has had your particular interpretation.  
 

But, even if I grant that, my question about the morality of the killing still applies.  Which was the point. 

Edited February 28 by TreeBeard

[Zeitgeist]

48 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

that's very Christian in fact

the Great Awokening

the ancient Christians did not come from Judea, did not live in Judea

the story of Christ spread to the Roman Pagans

it was the Pagans who converted to Christianity, not the Jews

and in the ancient Christian world, they were tearing down what was "normative"

to include pederasty

I’m speaking in particular about that which is psychologically healthy and fairly standard socialization and transference.   It would be quite universal across cultures, though certainly there will be outliers, just like cannibalism might be somewhat acceptable in a very small segment of the population for certain periods.

There are big implications for calling that which falls outside the normative range normal and for casting aspersions towards the normative.  An example is gender dysphoria, which was and is considered a psychological disorder.  We should be careful what we normalize, because the impacts can be devastating.  There’s a great deal of gender experimentation and confusion being “affirmed” by governments.  

Edited February 28 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

This is nonsense.  No one I have ever read has had your particular interpretation.  
 

But, even if I grant that, my question about the morality of the killing still applies.  Which was the point. 

it is impossible to prove either way

without proof, there is no point in argument

it's just a conversation, not everything is an argument

[Dougie93]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

There are big implications for calling that which falls outside the normative range normal and far casting aspersions towards the normative.  An example is gender dysphoria, which was and is considered a psychological disorder.  We should be careful what we normalize, because the impacts can be devastating.  There’s a great deal of gender experimentation and confusing being “affirmed” by governments.  

there is a larger epoch in play

governments are spiralling into collapse, ceasing to function

in the face of Marshall McLuhan's Guerrilla Information War

[TreeBeard]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

it is impossible to prove either way

without proof, there is no point in argument

it's just a conversation, not everything is an argument

All we need to do is read the bible…. It says “men”.  This is how scholars have interpreted it.  There hasn’t really been any other interpretations of it that I have seen, but I stand to be corrected.  
 

So, making up interpretations outside of the general consensus and saying “impossible to prove either way” is not true at all.  You don’t just get to make up nonsense and then claim “prove me wrong, you can’t”. 

[I am Groot]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

So the writer doesn't like these things.  So ?  

One of our values is that we come to the table and deal with each other.

1/3 of BC residents are in favour of changing the name of the province and that number grows as the population ages.

Is it 'as the population ages' or 'as more and more young people emerge from an educational system that teaches them that everything about Canada's history and heritage is something to be ashamed of? Is it that the population ages or that the Liberal party's effort to destroy our heritage and our connections with our past (otherwise known as cultural genocide) has more effect? Is it 'as the population ages' or the relentless barrage of contempt and scorn heaped upon everything about Canada's history, development, and western culture with virtually no contradiction has more effect?

When you suggest it's one of our values that we come to the table and deal with each other... is that something that is also fading away (along with any sense of pride in Canada) as we bring in more people who have no such values and who are never taught it here?

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

What do you want to do about that ?   There's nothing enshrined in the Charter of Rights that says you get to preserve the names of Canadian institutions and landmarks.

There's nothing in the Charter of Rights that prevents Canada from falling apart, and collapsing into various regional nations either. And with the way Trudeau and the rest of the progressive media and academia have worked so tirelessly to destroy all sense of nationhood, pride and shared cultural identity what is to hold Canada together? Nations don't stay together merely because it's more economically profitable to do so. Without a sense of shared identity they break up.

What do I want to do about it? I've kind of already mentioned stopping all government subsidies at all levels for artists. Let them flounder. I'd also go through schools and universities with a chain saw, firing most of those in charge, eliminating two-thirds of non-teaching administrators. redesigning the curriculums, ending tenure, and firing anyone who inserts their own political ideology into that curriculum. Instead of getting rid of the CBC, I'd just fire most of the people in charge and repurpose the network to put out broadcasting that brings Canadians together and teaches them pride in their country along with giving them unbiased, unideologically slanted news everyone can trust.

Edited February 28 by I am Groot

[Dougie93]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I’m speaking in particular about that which is psychologically healthy and fairly standard socialization and transference.   It would be quite universal across cultures, though certainly there will be outliers, just like cannibalism might be somewhat acceptable in a vary small segment of the population for certain periods.

the standardization is Christian

imposed by the Europeans, who have ruled the world for centuries

there are no cultures left which have not overthrown their own values in favour of Christian ones

[I am Groot]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

People explode their heads when you suggest little things like that, but it's a good idea to start small with these changes so they'll be ready for the big ones...

Little changes like changing the name of the province to something else in a foreign language only 1/10th of 1% of people understand? What do you regard as a big change? All the white people leaving so the natives can get back to being hunter gatherers again?

[Zeitgeist]

23 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

there is a larger epoch in play

governments are spiralling into collapse, ceasing to function

in the face of Marshall McLuhan's Guerrilla Information War

Well I think there’s a frightening enforcement of acceptance of values that run counter to the values that have existed within most cultures for almost all of history. It’s crowding out free speech, religious/spiritual beliefs, pluralism of political views, etc.

While Blackbird’s Christianity might be narrower or more particular than mine, I think that his reaction is quite reasonable to the radical dismantling of tradition and faith.  I would rather live in a world where Treebeard is the outlier than Blackbird, because I like traditional family values and think that they’re foundational to any great civilization, but the reality is that the Marxist-Nihilists have taken charge.  You see it in our government and workplace training.  A kind of radical materialism has taken hold.  Even many people who call themselves Christian or spiritual or conservative are practically speaking following the same trajectory. Hardner, for example, sounds to me like a Marxist cultural revolutionary, yet he calls himself conservative.  That’s very common now.

Everyone is a radical leftist now because it’s enforced policy now, and I do think it’s destroying our civilization.  

Edited February 28 by Zeitgeist

[Michael Hardner]

14 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

1. ... young people emerge from an educational system that teaches them that everything about Canada's history and heritage is something to be ashamed of? Is it that the population ages or that the Liberal party's effort to destroy our heritage and our connections with our past (otherwise known as cultural genocide) has more effect? Is it 'as the population ages' or the relentless barrage of contempt and scorn heaped upon everything about Canada's history, development, and western culture with virtually no contradiction has more effect?

2. When you suggest it's one of our values that we come to the table and deal with each other... is that something that is also fading away (along with any sense of pride in Canada) as we bring in more people who have no such values and who are never taught it here?

 

Sorry, I just don't have time for the full response you deserve.

1. This is the marketplace of ideas thing, I think.  It's fine for people on here to shit on Canada and call themselves patriots but if someone changes a word in the national anthem or wears a white poppy they're some kind of traitor.

2. I know lots of immigrants and they come here because they prefer this system.  It stands to reason. Otherwise why would they come? 

 

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

  What do you regard as a big change? All the white people leaving so the natives can get back to being hunter gatherers again?

No.  But the complaints about Canada that I read on here from patriots tell me we could learn from first Nations...

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

Sorry, I just don't have time for the full response you deserve.

1. This is the marketplace of ideas thing, I think.  It's fine for people on here to shit on Canada and call themselves patriots but if someone changes a word in the national anthem or wears a white poppy they're some kind of traitor.

2. I know lots of immigrants and they come here because they prefer this system.  It stands to reason. Otherwise why would they come? 

 

 

 

Ha, that system is being actively destroyed.

[eyeball]

44 minutes ago, TreeBeard said:

But things outside the “normative range” are not bad either.  Like being left-handed, while not being normal, is also not bad. 

That's not what the nuns told my wife. They hit her with sticks and tied her left hand behind her back.  I'd hate to think what happened to 1st Nation's lefties. There's probably a special place in Hell for those poor wretched heathens - something really old school Biblical, like an Inquisition and Groundhog's Day rolled into one...for Infinity.

Speaking of which, Pat Robertson says Heaven is like Sunday School that goes on forever.  I imagine after 437 trillion years of that even Jesus would be thinking about slashing his wrists.

[Nefarious Banana]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

 But the complaints about Canada that I read on here from patriots tell me we could learn from first Nations...

Sounds like you've bought-in to the 'keepers of the land' fallacy . . . . marketing at its finest for the 'searching for meaning' urbanites.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Sounds like you've bought-in to the 'keepers of the land' fallacy . . . . marketing at its finest for the 'searching for meaning' urbanites.

I think one thing we could learn from is to organize ourselves into much smaller territories/jurisdictions/nations.  Doing this could make it much easier to manage lands, resources and many other things more according to local values and using ecological knowledge of the people who live in the region and call it home.

The most common thing connecting the collapse of marine fisheries on coasts 5000 miles from one another is that both were mismanaged from thousands of miles away from the nearest ocean according to the values found elsewhere.

Edited February 28 by eyeball

[TreeBeard]

12 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I think one thing we could learn from is to organize ourselves into much smaller territories/jurisdictions/nations.  Doing this could make it much easier to manage lands, resources…

You don’t think this would just lead to squabbling by these smaller groups?  First Nations certainly fought (literally) with each other over land and resources.  Do you think this is a bit of ignoring reality in favour of an idealized version of these groups’ interactions?