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Is Canada a full democracy?


myata

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On 2/14/2023 at 6:53 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

Just out of curiosity, RedDog, have you ever considered what would happen to Alberta if she decided to leave Canada? Alberta would be landlocked with no access to the sea. The layout of the transportation network is a thin string between Edmonton and Calgary. It is extremely vulnerable for attack by loyalists.  

The US will not allow the Keystone pipeline into the US. BC will not only prevent more pipelines, but will probably shut off the lines that exist now. You will no longer have access to Saskatchewan's uranium. You will see a massive exodus of business and investment. With no access to markets, the oil patch and the oil sands will shut down. So, welcome back to Canada. We missed you. ?

BC couldn't shut off the pipelines if it wanted to. BC gets almost all its petroleum and most of its refined product from Alberta and Washington State refineries which are supplied by those lines. Make no mistake, Alberta separation would be bad news for everyone. 

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15 minutes ago, Aristides said:

BC couldn't shut off the pipelines if it wanted to. BC gets almost all its petroleum and most of its refined product from Alberta and Washington State refineries which are supplied by those lines. Make no mistake, Alberta separation would be bad news for everyone. 

BC has hydro power and, in the interim while we transition off oil as a fuel, we can import it. The point is a handful of loyalists will be able to bring a renagade provisional government in Alberta to its knees. Geography is the enemy of a  separatist Alberta.

 

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1 minute ago, Queenmandy85 said:

BC has hydro power and, in the interim while we transition off oil as a fuel, we can import it. The point is a handful of loyalists will be able to bring a renagade provisional government in Alberta to its knees. Geography is the enemy of a  separatist Alberta.

 

Hydro provides only 20% of BC's total energy needs, the rest comes from fossil fuels.

https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/dispelling-some-myths-about-british-columbias-energy-picture_b_7969110

Just over half the existing TransMountain capacity goes to Washington State refineries. The US would not take kindly to them being cut off.

Both sides of the Alberta separation argument are talklng out of their asses.

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10 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Alberta would be consumed by civil war. I don't thing they would have the capacity to prevent a Canadian corridor between Saskatchewan and BC. 

So you are advocating a civil war? Why not just try and make a good thing better for everyone instead of throwing rocks at each other. 

Edited by Aristides
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9 hours ago, myata said:

Are you talking to QM, in that alternative Universe?

Right, why would one need a brain of their own if somebody has done the job for them already?

Maybe the brain's just not that good.  Maybe the brain sees things that aren't there, and makes up strange conspiracies and alternate definitions and needs to be put right by a third party who gathers all the information into one place and presents it in an easiliy readable form so the brain can understand it.  Like an encyclopedia.

Of course, the brain has to want to understand it.

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On 2/14/2023 at 2:13 PM, RedDog said:

It’s never been a democracy. Get Alberta Out and negotiate payback. It will break Canada via the World Court. 

Alberta would die on the vine.  Never make it on it's own.  Never going to happen.

On the other hand, Manitoba westward would be a very viable country, with Churchill as the eastern terminus for access to European markets, and BC for Asian markets.  All the food and fuel needed, and the enthusiasm to make it happen.  Remember, Quebec and Ontario need the west more than the west needs them.  Western separation?  Yes!

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3 hours ago, blackbird said:

We have what everyone calls democracy but if you examine it closely, you find it is full of holes and there is massive room for questioning the concept.  What kind of country one has depends on what the people believe.  Canada is a mish mash of beliefs and conflicting ideologies.  If it is a democracy, it is certainly flawed in many ways.  The word democracy is kind of deceptive in a way.  The word gives the impression that everything will be fair, moral, and honest.  In practice it is far from it.

Indeed, hard to disagree, democracy is more than a word. There are many forms of democracies yet, in the core of a concept of a full modern democracy there's a set of quite specific and well defined principles and concepts. Importantly, not just a shopping cart of this and that, but they produce a coherent whole there facets and components support and reinforce each other.

- Citizens have a meaningful role in the political process that is transparent and clean

- Governments are transparent, accountable to the citizens and work in their interests and on their priorities, not own

- Rule of law, independent, fair and effective justice system

- Independent institutions, checks and controls

- Free media

- Rights and freedoms of citizens protected against arbitrary interference or infringement by governments

Possibly more. From this perspective a full modern democracy has to have a confident yes to every of these positions. Can Canada claim that? Not that I can see. And I wouldn't rely on abstract ratings produced by someone who may never lived in the country and understood how it works. I can see SNC-Lavalin affair with my own eyes, an inquiry shut down on a whim from the minister office, Emergency Measures invoked for a flu-like epidemics and please go on singing about ratings and how it's the best that can be had. A brain can be either own or none, for all I could care.

Edited by myata
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A scenario

Government discovers new superinfectious epidemic, R=1000. Three cases in Blahcity.

Exsperts (handpicked out of quantum vacuum, paid outrageously from public pocket) recommend total shutdown of the country. Prohibition of public gatherings, curfew effective immediately for as long as necessary.

Representatives (aka employees - m.) shown some sad bull. Maverick opposition member trying to ask questions shut down by the happy majority in the committee.

Supreme Justice heads for a great restaurant next door to perform democratic checks on the executive.

Free" (like in, zero value - m.) media departs to investigate the mysteries of the virus but already can report on the grave risks.

Elections postponed, for as long as necessary and for our own good obviously.

You say, a scary movie, Vendetta? But look around, what would it take? Only one whim.

Edited by myata
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2 hours ago, Aristides said:

So you are advocating a civil war? Why not just try and make a good thing better for everyone instead of throwing rocks at each other. 

I would never advocate civil war. Those who advocate separation will cause a civil war among Albertans, between the separatists and the loyalists. The only case of separation I can recall that did not descend into civil war was Czechoslovakia. If they can avoid that, there would still be the problem of the flight of investment and people.

Edited by Queenmandy85
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3 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

I am willing to say the pledge to King Charles once a year if he is willing to run our Governor General department

In one worthy endeavor Canada has outdone the Almighty themselves: they couldn't create a stone that they couldn't lift. Canada, but of course, here we go! (wasn't even hard... like took no time at all and now at last to the restaurant, on the peasants dime)

Edited by myata
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3 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

I would never advocate civil war. Those who advocate separation will cause a civil war among Albertans, between the separatists and the loyalists. The only case of separation I can recall that did not descend into civil war was Czechoslovakia. If they can avoid that, there would still be the problem of the flight of investment and people.

I don't presume to know what Albertans will do, just that breaking up this country will be a bad thing for everyone.

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On 2/15/2023 at 5:24 AM, myata said:

That's a looooooong stretch, by quite an arbitrary attribute. You can imagine that in a society like Chile Pinochet's or Putin's Russia not paying taxes to authoritarian government would cost one very dearly...

I have lived in various societies - from Russia to Lebanon and indeed Canada.

IMHO, the best measure of civility/democracy in society is not voter-turn out - it is whether people pay their taxes.

No one likes to pay taxes. But when people pay their taxes, they in effect vote for the State.

In Montreal city elections, voter turn out is around 25%. But most people pay their hydro bill and property taxes.

In other places like the Soviet Union and Cuba and Venezuela, people find a way to avoid taxes. In Australia and America, people generally pay.

===

Ukraine? It is like Nigeria. No one in Ukraine pays taxes if they don't have to.

In Russia, most people - not all - pay their taxes.

I know that this is strange to hear but it is true. Of course, no one in Russia pays taxes the same way that a Canadian does. Indeed, Lebanese and Greeks in Canada and America and Australia are surprised even proud to pay taxes. 

 

Edited by August1991
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1 hour ago, August1991 said:

No one likes to pay taxes. But when people pay their taxes,

You're making it sound like they do it happily and entirely voluntarily. Here's a thing, in Ontario there's something like Great Opportunities Fund where one can voluntarily donate on top of the taxes. I wonder what the totals could be annually. For some reason, it's never published.

In any place where there's severe penalty otherwise people will pay taxes because they have no better choice. Make it fun if you want to know the real answer: make it voluntary. Same with the tuk-tuk free elections, by the way.

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3 hours ago, August1991 said:

I have lived in various societies - from Russia to Lebanon and indeed Canada.

IMHO, the best measure of civility/democracy in society is not voter-turn out - it is whether people pay their taxes.

No one likes to pay taxes. But when people pay their taxes, they in effect vote for the State.

In Montreal city elections, voter turn out is around 25%. But most people pay their hydro bill and property taxes.

In other places like the Soviet Union and Cuba and Venezuela, people find a way to avoid taxes. In Australia and America, people generally pay.

===

Ukraine? It is like Nigeria. No one in Ukraine pays taxes if they don't have to.

In Russia, most people - not all - pay their taxes.

I know that this is strange to hear but it is true. Of course, no one in Russia pays taxes the same way that a Canadian does. Indeed, Lebanese and Greeks in Canada and America and Australia are surprised even proud to pay taxes. 

 

I disagree

the civilized nature of Canada is much more specific

beneath the surface, Canada is still a British Victorian society

Canada was built by the Victorian Orange Order, even in Quebec

that is the origin of Canada's priggish self righteousness 

Canadians queue properly, because that is what the British do

Canadians of course have their pathological insecurity "we're not British !" they will cry

but there's no escaping it, Canada does not have its own culture, it's all British culture here

more British than the British themselves in fact, in the face of the American menace at the gates

Canadians cling to their British Victorianism desperately

in the face of rowdy & raucous American freedom, which Canadians are terrified of

Canadians will recoil and go hysterical, at the slightest bit of American yeehaw

 latest episode being the hysterical reaction of "oh noes the American Truckers are invading !"

Americans know it well

all Americans have to say is "we can invade you any time we want" and Canadians will wet their pants

Tucker Carlson is literally the most feared man in Canada

Canada invoking martial law terror of him

for its next lunatic reactionary episode

Canada will now try to censor the internet to keep American freedom at bay

Canada never changes, it's been like this since 1812

Canada lives in perpetual fear & loathing of bible thumping gun toting American rednecks

Edited by Dougie93
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23 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

beneath the surface, Canada is still a <..> British

An imitation of, as already stated. While British citizens managed to create and maintain a living and evolvable democracy in Canada they just copied it, like a snapshot put it on the wall in a frame and never bothered to think again.

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2 minutes ago, myata said:

An imitation of, as already stated. While British citizens managed to create and maintain a living and evolvable democracy in Canada they just copied it, like a snapshot put it on the wall in a frame and never bothered to think again.

it's frozen in time in Canada

the UK is not like it was in the 19th century

but Canada still is like the British of the 19th century

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16 hours ago, Aristides said:

I don't presume to know what Albertans will do, just that breaking up this country will be a bad thing for everyone.

Trudeau has broken this country up like no other PM has ever done.  He has divided Canadians in every way possible and through various means has made the cost of living impossible to keep up with for many Canadians.  He has attacked Canadians in every way possible.  This is what caused the Freedom Convoy.  Most of the protesters were peaceful people, but he even insulted and attacked peaceful people.  He is dangerous and destructive.  As a result of this divisive PM we are losing our democracy.  A good PM would have united people.  He does the exact opposite for political gain.

Edited by blackbird
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