Finally Some Sense on Health Care

[scribblet]

http://www.torontosun.com/Comment/Commenta...02/1334962.html

Only in Canada would a proposal that the state must provide its citizens with timely radiation treatments for cancer provoke cries that it's all part of a plot to privatize our health care system.

But that's what happened yesterday when Conservative Leader Stephen Harper unveiled his plans to reform medicare.

One measure he proposed would establish guaranteed wait times for patients -- an idea first advocated by Senator Michael Kirby (a Liberal), who co-chaired a study into the Canadian health care system.

It's a sensible, compassionate concept.

It means that if the state cannot provide timely medical care to an individual -- say, 10 working days for radiation therapy after being seen by a cancer specialist -- then the state must act. ...... meanwhile - back at the ranch

While Harper stressed "there will be no private, parallel system" under his proposal, Prime Minister Paul Martin and NDP Leader Jack Layton nonetheless accused him -- as usual -- of wanting to privatize health care.

They even attacked him for saying he wouldn't shut down private medical clinics -- the same private medical clinics that the Liberals have allowed to flourish in several provinces for the past 12 years.

Back in the real world, even Health Minister Ujjal Dosanjh said yesterday that the Liberals are looking at care guarantees as "the next logical step."

[normanchateau]

Why would anyone believe Harper's current position on health care more than his previous position on health care? It's changed so many times that he's completely lost credibility on the issue. Just prior to the last election, he changed his position once again and even acknowledged that his new and improved position was solely for the purpose of getting elected in 2004 or as he so disingenuously put it, political realism demanded it. Here's the full link:

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20050430091919834

So what will Harper do about health care if he's elected? It depends on whether we believe what he said when he was a Reform Party MP, or Director of the National Citizens' Coalition, or leader of the Alliance Party, or leader of CPC or leader of CPC responding at the last moment to "political realism". Who knows, maybe CPC supporters even view his flipflops as a virtue as they seem to view most of his weaknesses, including his bizarre obsession with taking away legal rights from a minority group.

[cybercoma]

Why would anyone believe Harper's current position on health care more than his previous position on health care? It's changed so many times that he's completely lost credibility on the issue.  Just prior to the last election, he changed his position once again and even acknowledged that his new and improved position was solely for the purpose of getting elected in 2004 or as he so disingenuously put it, political realism demanded it. Here's the full link:

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20050430091919834

So what will Harper do about health care if he's elected?  It depends on whether we believe what he said when he was a Reform Party MP, or Director of the National Citizens' Coalition, or leader of the Alliance Party, or leader of CPC or leader of CPC responding at the last moment to "political realism". Who knows, maybe CPC supporters even view his flipflops  as a virtue as they seem to view most of his weaknesses, including his bizarre obsession with taking away legal rights from a minority group.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought health care was being fixed 15 years ago. So much for that plan.

And since you bring up SSM and flip-flopping in the same post, why don't we talk about Martin?

Regardless, Harper isn't taking anything away from anybody. The MPs would have a free vote, so it would be them who make the decision.

[scribblet]

Why would anyone believe Harper's current position on health care more than his previous position on health care? It's changed so many times that he's completely lost credibility on the issue.  Just prior to the last election, he changed his position once again and even acknowledged that his new and improved position was solely for the purpose of getting elected in 2004 or as he so disingenuously put it, political realism demanded it. Here's the full link:

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20050430091919834

So what will Harper do about health care if he's elected?  It depends on whether we believe what he said when he was a Reform Party MP, or Director of the National Citizens' Coalition, or leader of the Alliance Party, or leader of CPC or leader of CPC responding at the last moment to "political realism". Who knows, maybe CPC supporters even view his flipflops  as a virtue as they seem to view most of his weaknesses, including his bizarre obsession with taking away legal rights from a minority group.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I thought health care was being fixed 15 years ago. So much for that plan.

And since you bring up SSM and flip-flopping in the same post, why don't we talk about Martin?

Regardless, Harper isn't taking anything away from anybody. The MPs would have a free vote, so it would be them who make the decision.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not to mention the bizarre obsession with hijacking everything into an SSM rant. This is getting totally annoying, and is off topic, so maybe pointing out the forum rules would do.

NO TROLLING/FLAMING

Do not post inflammatory remarks just to annoy people. If you are not bringing anything new to the argument, then do not say anything at all.

Some messages are not so much offensive as simply nuisance value. An example would be a person who persistently creates conflict without contributing anything useful. In newsgroup circles, such a person is known as a "troll". We define "trolling" as a message that serves no constructive purpose and is likely to cause offence or arguments. We define "annoying" as any message that results in a complaint from a registered user -- we will then decide whether to take action.

[Shakeyhands]

During the summer Harper changed his tune on Healthcare 180 degrees. It was during his BBQ circuit designed to make him look less scary to the general populous. It almost mirrors the Liberals position. I know he'll change his tune yet again if elected. I don't know how anyone could trust the CPC party.

And all you Con supporters... givce it a rest with the whining.. if you have a problem with someone, ignore them and quit your crying. It sounds pathetic.

[normanchateau]

Why would anyone believe Harper's current position on health care more than his previous position on health care? It's changed so many times that he's completely lost credibility on the issue. Just prior to the last election, he changed his position once again and even acknowledged that his new and improved position was solely for the purpose of getting elected in 2004 or as he so disingenuously put it, political realism demanded it. Here's the full link:

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20050430091919834

So what will Harper do about health care if he's elected? It depends on whether we believe what he said when he was a Reform Party MP, or Director of the National Citizens' Coalition, or leader of the Alliance Party, or leader of CPC or leader of CPC responding at the last moment to "political realism". Who knows, maybe CPC supporters even view his flipflops as a virtue as they seem to view most of his weaknesses, including his bizarre obsession with taking away legal rights from a minority group.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not to mention the bizarre obsession with hijacking everything into an SSM rant. This is getting totally annoying, and is off topic, so maybe pointing out the forum rules would do.

You chose to focus on my one sentence about Harper taking away legal rights rather than the rest of my post which dealt exclusively with Harper's shifting position on health care. Nowhere did you even acknowledge what appeared in the link I posted where Harper said he'd changed his position for political reasons.

Harper's credibility on health care and flipfloping is the main issue I addressed.

[scribblet]

During the summer Harper changed his tune on Healthcare 180 degrees.  It was during his BBQ circuit designed to make him look less scary to the general populous.  It almost mirrors the Liberals position.  I know he'll change his tune yet again if elected.  I don't know how anyone could trust the CPC party.

And all you Con supporters... givce it a rest with the whining.. if you have a problem with someone, ignore them and quit your crying.  It sounds pathetic.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You don't know that he will change his mind, and you seem to forget, its a new party, different policies. Like I said, this CPC isn't much more than liberal lite.

[normanchateau]

You don't know that he will change his mind, and you seem to forget, its a new party, different policies.  Like I said, this CPC isn't much more than liberal lite.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nobody knows that someone will change his mind in the future but past behaviour is a reasonable predictor of future behaviour and Harper has flipflopped before on health care as my link above clearly indicates. Why should we assume that despite his previous flipflops on healthcare and even his attacks on Preston Manning's and Mike Harris' proposals for health care which mirrored Harper's previous positions on health care, that this time, just weeks before the 2006 election, he now finally has a chipped-in-stone position? He's not been consistent before. That's why you failed to respond to that part of my post.

[normanchateau]

You don't know that he will change his mind, and you seem to forget, its a new party, different policies.  Like I said, this CPC isn't much more than liberal lite.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nobody knows that someone will change his mind in the future but past behaviour is a reasonable predictor of future behaviour and Harper has flipflopped before on health care as my link above clearly indicates. Why should we assume that despite his previous flipflops on healthcare and even his attacks on Preston Manning's and Mike Harris' proposals for health care which mirrored Harper's previous positions on health care, that this time, just weeks before the 2006 election, he now finally has a chipped-in-stone position? He's not been consistent before. That's why you failed to respond to that part of my post.

[Argus]

You don't know that he will change his mind, and you seem to forget, its a new party, different policies.  Like I said, this CPC isn't much more than liberal lite.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nobody knows that someone will change his mind in the future but past behaviour is a reasonable predictor of future behaviour

Well, in that case..

Every election for the last 12 years the Liberals have wrapped themselves in the noble flag of Defender of Health Care, and then, immediately after the election, have tossed it into the closet and sat around counting the cash while health care deteriorated.

If past behaviour is any indication then the Liberals care nothing about the state of public health care. And why should they when their millionaire leaders go to the US for health care, or jump to the head of the line?

[sharkman]

It looks like Harper's got a really sound plan for health care, that's why liberals are immediately attacking it.

[normanchateau]

It looks like Harper's got a really sound plan for health care, that's why liberals are immediately attacking it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I haven't seen anyone attack Harper's plan on this thread. Rather it's been pointed out repeatedly that Harper has flipflopped repeatedly on health care for purposes of political expediency. He no longer has the credibility to convince people that he wouldn't continue to flipflop like a fish. His plan has changed so often that no one, not even Preston Manning, knows where he now stands. That was the point of the link I provided above...his attack on Preston Manning's health care plan.

[sharkman]

In refering to liberals attacking, I was referring to Canadians in general. Martin has been attacking the plan and your usual assortment of liberals. By the way, speaking of fish, Martin is really looking unhealthy lately, how old is he I wonder. There comes a point when one has to slow down and I think this campaign is too much for him.

[tweedledee]

It looks like Harper's got a really sound plan for health care, that's why liberals are immediately attacking it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think he has too, you sure can't accuse him of wanting U.S. style healthcare, and he's sticking to his guns on it. But think he's wimped out with no substantive changes to ensure that timely health care is available in Canada. We will just spend money to send people to the United States if the wait times are too long in Canada.

Why should our tax dollars be spent in U.S. clinics? Why should our sick be forced to go to hospitals hundreds of miles from home? How will this fix our health care system?

Time guarantees are fine, but they must provide the right for Canadians to choose to go to private clinics in Canada if the public system cannot meet their needs.

Hi by the way, new here.

[fellowtraveller]

I don't know how anyone could trust the CPC party

I don't undertand how anybody could trust the Liberals on health care.

They've had sole custody of the issue for 12 years, and have made a complete mess of it.

The country has not even had a full and reasoned debate on the subject yet under their 'leadership'. Truly, a pathetic performance on a critical issue.

[tweedledee]

I don't know how anyone could trust the CPC party

I don't undertand how anybody could trust the Liberals on health care.

They've had sole custody of the issue for 12 years, and have made a complete mess of it.

The country has not even had a full and reasoned debate on the subject yet under their 'leadership'. Truly, a pathetic performance on a critical issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds like Harper's moderate stand and emulationg of liberal health care policy is getting to some people. They can't knock it cos it follows liberal style policy so they attack Harper instead.

[normanchateau]

In refering to liberals attacking, I was referring to Canadians in general.  Martin has been attacking the plan and your usual assortment of liberals.  By the way, speaking of fish, Martin is really looking unhealthy lately, how old is he I wonder.  There comes a point when one has to slow down and I think this campaign is too much for him.

Your not so subtle implication is that we should vote for the more youthful Stephen Harper. Martin has looked that way for years.

It's performance that counts and you might want to look at the performance of the two leaders the day before the 2004 election. Martin campaigned from the Maritimes to the west coast of British Columbia that day, stopping in numerous communities enroute. Harper stayed home the day before the election. Bet Harper doesn't repeat that mistake this time. Martin got the publicity and got across to people just how much energy he had (despite still wearing that tired dog face that he's been genetically stuck with for years).

[sharkman]

I don't know, there's 54 days left in the campaign and it's going to be during the worst of winter. Martin may just overdue it and have a health emergency. This might just play into the CPC hands.

[normanchateau]

I don't know, there's 54 days left in the campaign and it's going to be during the worst of winter.  Martin may just overdue it and have a health emergency.  This might just play into the CPC hands.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As long as Harper remains leader, even Martin dying would not play into CPC hands.

[justcrowing]

After spending a whole pile of taxpayers $$ to study medicare, the Liberals have not even made an attempt to follow any of the recommended guidelines. Of course, they would not inject money into medicare because if they do, then the surplus might get smaller and Martin's private clinic he goes to might be put out of business. Martin was too busy manipulating power away from Chretien and Chretien was too busy building his legacy & Shawinigate coverup. During the last election, Martin said he was going to save medicare but instead he was busy dithering.

[normanchateau]

During the last election, Martin said he was going to save medicare but instead he was busy dithering.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And during the last election, Harper was busy flipflopping on health care and now no one, perhaps not even himself, knows where he stands:

http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20050430091919834

[sharkman]

Harper's new health care policy makes a lot of sense to the average Canadian. Limit wait times and avoid a two tier system.

On the other hand, the Liberals started this whole mess by cutting transfer payments to the provinces in the mid 90s when Martin was finance minister. And since there is an election coming, Martin's going to fix the medical system. Fat chance. They've even done nothing after the Romanov Report came out several years ago about our health care system, and this is a report they commissoned!

[normanchateau]

Harper's new health care policy makes a lot of sense to the average Canadian.  Limit wait times and avoid a two tier system. 

I'm sure his previous ppolicy also made sense. So did the one he announced when he flipflopped just before the 2004 election. So did his policy when he was Leader of the Alliance. So did his policy when he was Director of the National Citizens' Coalition. How about when he was a Reform MP and disagreed with Manning on numerous issues? Yes, all his positions, while constantly shifting, made sense.

[sharkman]

Well Norm, I'm glad we can agree on something! Harper does make sense doesn't he? I notice you completely ignore the part of my post that stated the reason Canada is in this mess in the first place. That's okay, most Canadians remember.

[normanchateau]

Well Norm, I'm glad we can agree on something!  Harper does make sense doesn't he? 

He makes the most sense when he's not consistent, i.e., when he's being all things to all people. In his list of health care positions, there's one to suit almost everyone.

Now if only he showed the good sense to be inconsistent on his other positions, i.e., the ones motivated by his social and/or religious conservatism.