Can political opponents have a civilized conversation about education?

[bcsapper]

1 hour ago, reason10 said:

Everyone here is an extremist. There are NO moderates at a political message board.  That defies reality on a grand scale.

A moderate, non extremists would NEVER spend any time in a place like this.

I do.  Not as much as you, of course.

I think you're just trying to feel better about yourself. 

If we're all insane, then you're not so bad, right?

[reason10]

15 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I do.  Not as much as you, of course.

I think you're just trying to feel better about yourself. 

If we're all insane, then you're not so bad, right?

Coming to this place (or ANY political message board, for that matter) to "feel good about oneself" is about as pathetic as it gets.

I come here because there are rare moments when I have the time.

[bcsapper]

1 minute ago, reason10 said:

Coming to this place (or ANY political message board, for that matter) to "feel good about oneself" is about as pathetic as it gets.

I come here because there are rare moments when I have the time.

I didn't say you came here to feel better about yourself.  How would that work?

I said you want everyone to be an extremist so you can feel better about yourself.

[Rebound]

3 hours ago, reason10 said:

How does allegedly "taking money from public schools and giving it to private schools" benefit the wealthy, if the idea is to allow a poor child the opportunity to leave an inferior public school and attend a private school?

Secondly, are you assuming that ALL private schools are automatically "religious organizations?"  Show me the Southern Baptist private school chain. Show me the Jewish private schools. Hell, show me the NATION OF ISLAM private school chain, (of course that means no female students, since Islam prohibits that.) Are you suggesting there are ZERO private schools that are not affiliated with a religion?

First, this thread title includes, "civilized conversation," and calling the Obama's a "Klan" is an extremely indefensible, offensive and inflammatory thing to say. You are not making any effort at being civilized here. Try harder.

Second, schools receive funding for each student enrolled. California even funds down to the day. So every kid pulled out of school reduces the school's funding. 

Third, the proposal for funding the private school is by giving the parents a tax credit for their child's education. Poor people do not make enough money to take advantage of tax credits, so poor people cannot benefit.

Four, although it's true that there are many non-parochial private secondary schools, the OP states that there is vacancy at private Catholic schools. The proposal is for the tax credits to permit attendance at both parochial and non-parochial schools, including Catholic schools, Yeshivas, and Madrasas. Even though you don't think there are any private Jewish and Islamic and non-Catholic religious high schools in America... there are.  

Edited January 30 by Rebound

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, Contrarian said:

2. Of course they do not, this is how the anger built up on the other side, because of you and people like @Moonbox, "They don't have time for me". 

They were angry and self-deluded long before they ever came to this forum.  We're not really debating politics or policy on this forum.  We're stuck debating basic reality instead.   

This meme captures the central theme of almost every forum topic on this website now, and panel 4 is where the discussions usually derail.  In a face-to-face setting, tinfoil hats might restrain themselves from falling back on the default programming of "You're an MSM sheep too stupid to think for yourself.  In these cases, they're forced to coherently explain their position and why the overwhelming weight of expertise/research/law directly contradicts their worldview (which usually doesn't go well).  In this case, they might start asking questions back, which is at least something in terms of forming a discussion.  

Whatever you want to say, there ARE good points littered amongst their angry ranting, but the oxygen gets sucked out of these topics by the exercises in mind-warped reality and the accompanying hysterics.  The election was stolen.  COVID was a hoax.  Masks and vaccines aren't safe or effective.  Ukraine is full of Nazis researching bioweapons.  WEF = CABAL OF FILTH etc...

You can spot the hopeless cases by how consistently they buy into it.  It's not hard to fall for disinformation, and everyone is guilty of it in some way or form at some point in time.  When you're falling for all (or nearly all) of it, however, you're not actually falling for anything anymore.  You're willingly diving face-first into that shallow pool of misinformation.  It's a coping mechanism for them, and there's no value in engaging it seriously.  It's for entertainment and curiosity alone.  

When these posters are no longer funny or interesting to read, /ignore is the best option.  

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 30 by Moonbox

[West]

There's nothing in common with lefties who believe in acting out sexual fantasies to five year olds and allowing men with dangers to change in front of little girls

[West]

3 hours ago, Contrarian said:

I disagree, the way we are taught to lower our standard for certain groups in society, we can lower our standards for right wing fanatics that are lost in the bubble. 

It only takes 1 simple message and it can change someone's view. The way you showed patience to that fanatic believer, @West, you probably passed more knowledge to him/her than his/her fanatics ever did from the populist side. 

So really, is the correct choice to ignore? 

😆... 

I've gained no knowledge from Mike. He just lies

[Rebound]

1 hour ago, West said:

There's nothing in common with lefties who believe in acting out sexual fantasies to five year olds and allowing men with dangers to change in front of little girls

Can we please keep your perverse fantasies out of the education thread? 

[Michael Hardner]

10 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Can we please keep your perverse fantasies out of the education thread? 

That's Giuliani at Four Seasons Landscaping they're referring to...

[West]

25 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Can we please keep your perverse fantasies out of the education thread? 

That's your perversions, pal. Why we won't see eye to eye

[Contrarian]

I still don't understand why people have an issue with the private industry when it comes to education. 

[reason10]

2 hours ago, Rebound said:

 

 

 

 

First, this thread title includes, "civilized conversation," and calling the Obama's a "Klan" is an extremely indefensible, offensive and inflammatory thing to say. You are not making any effort at being civilized here. Try harder.

But that crack about the bars being closed in Florida is okay, huh?

Second, schools receive funding for each student enrolled. California even funds down to the day. So every kid pulled out of school reduces the school's funding. 

This is when I start thinking that maybe every liberal here is a pre teen. You see Census figures of how much money is spent PER STUDENT and you assume that money stays with the student when he/she move to another school. And considering the many different sources of education funding, along with differing amounts of funding in counties with higher real estate values versus lower real estate values, if you want to make the case that ALL entities involved in public education (the state, Washington, the city, the county, and various other foundations that contribute to high risk student cases) somehow magically have the amounts computed down to the penny for EACH student, and that each student uses that amount as a cover charge, we'll wait while you find a link. Just because politicians say the system spends X amount of dollars PER STUDENT does not mean that student OWNS that amount of money and can just take it anywhere his parents want it to go.

What if a kid's family moves to another state? Doesn't THAT take money from the school? What's the difference between that and the fairy tale of kids taking their cover charges to a private school? And what if a kid's family moves a kid to another PUBLIC school? Does the one public school LOSE that kid's cover charge? See how STUPID that sounds?

Third, the proposal for funding the private school is by giving the parents a tax credit for their child's education. Poor people do not make enough money to take advantage of tax credits, so poor people cannot benefit.

Frankly, the ONLY education reform idea I've seen that even mentions private schools occurred when Jeb Bush became the first Republican governor in a generation here in Florida. He passed the A+ plan, which brought Florida's failing Democrat administered schools from the lower 40s to the top ten in the nation.

Part of that plan was an item concerning grading schools. If a school failed three years in a row, there were several different remedies available. One of them was allowing the kid to attend a private school, but ONLY an inner city kid. ONLY if the school accepted the kid, bad grades and all, and ONLY if the school accepted the compensation the state was offering as full tuition. (I'm almost reading right from the bill, because I was there when it came out.) Needless to say, the liberals here shot that provision down in the courts, even though the private school option was for inner city schools only. I guess dem Democrats wanted to keep dey black kids in dey place.

Four, although it's true that there are many non-parochial private secondary schools, the OP states that there is vacancy at private Catholic schools. The proposal is for the tax credits to permit attendance at both parochial and non-parochial schools, including Catholic schools, Yeshivas, and Madrasas. Even though you don't think there are any private Jewish and Islamic and non-Catholic religious high schools in America... there are.  

First of all, you never heard me suggest that there are no private Jewish, Islamic or Non Catholic religions high school in America. I mentioned their existence.

And when it comes to public schools, here is YOUR quote:

The proposal here is to take more money from public schools and give it to religious organizations.

When it comes to education, I have discovered that I'm able to (the slang term for urinate that rhymes with hiss)  off the largest group of whiners in the world, maybe because I ACTUALLY listen to teachers. I'm NOT a big fan of tax dollars going to private schools because (a) those schools do not need a bunch of broke ass, failing kids dumbing down their results and causing holes in their cash flow and (b) I may be one of the FEW individuals who does not see ANY actual superiority in private schools. Yes, the Obama Klan has the perfect setup, with tax dollars paying for his kid to enjoy the superior experience of Sidwell Friends School, while kids in DC public schools can barely afford shoes or school supplies.

And people on my side of the aisle get pissed at me when I suggest that maybe the private schools should be held to the same standards as public schools, and today that is not the case. Maybe it's because I worked in public education for over 24 years, but I see nothing magical in the concept of "school choice." Jeb Bush's A+ plan DID work, but it had a lot more elements than just "choice" being an option.

If you want to know the biggest obstacle in education, it's the lazy assed PARENTS, who don't make their brats study, who don't even teach their brats how to behave in public. And that's not just me talking, that's EVERY TEACHER I'VE EVER WORKED WITH.

 

[reason10]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

They were angry and self-deluded long before they ever came to this forum.  We're not really debating politics or policy on this forum.  We're stuck debating basic reality instead.   

This meme captures the central theme of almost every forum topic on this website now, and panel 4 is where the discussions usually derail.  In a face-to-face setting, tinfoil hats might restrain themselves from falling back on the default programming of "You're an MSM sheep too stupid to think for yourself.  In these cases, they're forced to coherently explain their position and why the overwhelming weight of expertise/research/law directly contradicts their worldview (which usually doesn't go well).  In this case, they might start asking questions back, which is at least something in terms of forming a discussion.  

Whatever you want to say, there ARE good points littered amongst their angry ranting, but the oxygen gets sucked out of these topics by the exercises in mind-warped reality and the accompanying hysterics.  The election was stolen.  COVID was a hoax.  Masks and vaccines aren't safe or effective.  Ukraine is full of Nazis researching bioweapons.  WEF = CABAL OF FILTH etc...

You can spot the hopeless cases by how consistently they buy into it.  It's not hard to fall for disinformation, and everyone is guilty of it in some way or form at some point in time.  When you're falling for all (or nearly all) of it, however, you're not actually falling for anything anymore.  You're willingly diving face-first into that shallow pool of misinformation.  It's a coping mechanism for them, and there's no value in engaging it seriously.  It's for entertainment and curiosity alone.  

When these posters are no longer funny or interesting to read, /ignore is the best option.  

 

 

 

 

 

If alternative OPINIONS creates an "oxygen sucked out of the room" atmosphere for you, then you're probably at the wrong place. You have a problem with FREE SPEECH. Yeah, there's a lot of bullshit OPINIONS here: Covid a hoax, Biden won legally, Masks and vaccines work or don't work. Human activity on a fraction of the land surface of the earth which is 29 percent somehow magically can change the local prevailing weather patterns, (which some call Climate). This place is chuck FULL of opinions you might not like. If you are not tolerant to views other than yours, then what are you doing at a political message board? This place isn't CNN or THE VIEW.

[bcsapper]

33 minutes ago, reason10 said:

If alternative OPINIONS creates an "oxygen sucked out of the room" atmosphere for you, then you're probably at the wrong place. You have a problem with FREE SPEECH. Yeah, there's a lot of bullshit OPINIONS here: Covid a hoax, Biden won legally, Masks and vaccines work or don't work. Human activity on a fraction of the land surface of the earth which is 29 percent somehow magically can change the local prevailing weather patterns, (which some call Climate). This place is chuck FULL of opinions you might not like. If you are not tolerant to views other than yours, then what are you doing at a political message board? This place isn't CNN or THE VIEW.

You really don't know what free speech is, do you?

You can say Trump won the last election as much as you want, but you're going to be called dumb for it.

You can say climate change is a hoax as much as you want, but you're going to be called dumb for it.

No-one is restricting your freedom of speech.  They are just pointing out how stupid and ridiculous such views are, and postulating that perhaps those who put them forward as the truth are perhaps stupid and ridiculous too.

Free speech can only be restricted by the government, in that they provide sanctions for those expressing views of which they don't approve.

Any response by an person or an organization other than the government is simply an alternate expression of free speech.

It's old, American, and it's been seen a thousand times by some, but this XKCD cartoon says it best.  In case you have never seen it.

 

 

Edited January 30 by bcsapper

[robosmith]

33 minutes ago, reason10 said:

If alternative OPINIONS creates an "oxygen sucked out of the room" atmosphere for you, then you're probably at the wrong place. You have a problem with FREE SPEECH. Yeah, there's a lot of bullshit OPINIONS here: Covid a hoax, Biden won legally, Masks and vaccines work or don't work. Human activity on a fraction of the land surface of the earth which is 29 percent somehow magically can change the local prevailing weather patterns, (which some call Climate). This place is chuck FULL of opinions you might not like. If you are not tolerant to views other than yours, then what are you doing at a political message board? This place isn't CNN or THE VIEW.

YOU should be asking YOURSELF the bolded question. All you EVER do here is dismiss EVIDENCE you don't like and call ANYONE who disagrees with you CHILDISH NAMES.

BTW, FL public schools are NOT in the top 10. I could NOT find ONE RECENT ranking which puts FL in the top 10. Can you?

[Rebound]

23 minutes ago, robosmith said:

YOU should be asking YOURSELF the bolded question. All you EVER do here is dismiss EVIDENCE you don't like and call ANYONE who disagrees with you CHILDISH NAMES.

BTW, FL public schools are NOT in the top 10. I could NOT find ONE RECENT ranking which puts FL in the top 10. Can you?

US News puts Florida K-12 in 16th place. 
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education

[Contrarian]

hahahaha @reason10 explain the above. 

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Contrarian said:

I still don't understand why people have an issue with the private industry when it comes to education. 

It's more that they want to drive costs down and spend less on people who really need help.  There's an element of dumping on teachers, which isn't pleasant.

And then the idea that people should be kept in different bubbles to be educated.  My school was in a small town, so we had farmers, doctors, merchants and labourers and we were better for it.

Liberty and Equality.... and FRATERNITY.

Those who complain about Trudeau's divisiveness in this regard are right - these people all go to private schools... they are wrong because they want that for themselves...

[reason10]

USA

35 minutes ago, Rebound said:

US News puts Florida K-12 in 16th place. 
https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/rankings/education

US News? Yeah, right. What's next? People magazine? THE VIEW?

[reason10]

1 hour ago, robosmith said:

YOU should be asking YOURSELF the bolded question. All you EVER do here is dismiss EVIDENCE you don't like and call ANYONE who disagrees with you CHILDISH NAMES.

BTW, FL public schools are NOT in the top 10. I could NOT find ONE RECENT ranking which puts FL in the top 10. Can you?

https://flgov.com/2022/03/15/governor-desantis-signs-groundbreaking-legislation-to-make-florida-a-national-leader-by-eliminating-high-stakes-testing/

Today’s announcement builds on a lengthy list of achievements in education that Florida has made since 2019:

• Florida has already risen to third in the nation for K-12 education according to Education Week. Florida eradicated Common Core and did so by elevating the quality and alignment of learning opportunities through creating Florida’s B.E.S.T. (Benchmarks for Excellent Student Thinking) Standards.
• Governor DeSantis, Commissioner Corcoran and the Legislature have continually secured the highest ever K-12 public school and per-pupil spending totals in Florida’s history.
• Marking the last few years as “The Year of the Teacher,” Governor DeSantis has elevated Florida as one of the top states in the nation in terms of starting teacher pay by securing approximately $2 billion in pay increases for teachers.
• With Commissioner Corcoran, Governor DeSantis provided a roadmap to make Florida’s standards number one in the nation, streamlined testing and massively invested in early learning, literacy and civics education like no other state in the nation.
• Florida was the first state in the nation to reopen schools in August 2020 and guarantee families had an in-person instructional option five days a week.

[reason10]

It's more that they want to drive costs down and spend less on people who really need help.  There's an element of dumping on teachers, which isn't pleasant.

Private schools drive costs DOWN? In what parallel universe? Private schools base their tuition on whatever they can get from the very rich. And they maintain the top academic numbers because they are able to pick and choose who attends. The flunking inner city brat who has a bunch of Ds wouldn't be accepted even if he had TWICE the tuition. Private schools are totally FOR PROFIT institutions. I have no problem with that.  As far as dumping on teachers, the average helicopter parent does that on a daily basis. As far as spending on people who really need help (at least in Florida) there is the ESE special ed section. Florida school also feed the masses. There are HOMELESS kids who look to the public school lunchroom as their ONLY source of food.

And then the idea that people should be kept in different bubbles to be educated.  My school was in a small town, so we had farmers, doctors, merchants and labourers and we were better for it.

I agree. And that is the way of the world. For every ordinary kid in public school there's an OBAMA kid at Sidwell Friends School in DC, getting the best education while regular DC schools can barely afford to keep the doors open. Sadly, it is an achievement world we live in. Nothing really has changed since the Jim Crow laws and segregated country clubs. Just look at how those elite rich types at Martha's Vineyard turned away those plane loads of illegal aliens.

[reason10]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

You really don't know what free speech is, do you?

You can say Trump won the last election as much as you want, but you're going to be called dumb for it.

You can say climate change is a hoax as much as you want, but you're going to be called dumb for it.

No-one is restricting your freedom of speech.  They are just pointing out how stupid and ridiculous such views are, and postulating that perhaps those who put them forward as the truth are perhaps stupid and ridiculous too.

Free speech can only be restricted by the government, in that they provide sanctions for those expressing views of which they don't approve.

Any response by an person or an organization other than the government is simply an alternate expression of free speech.

It's old, American, and it's been seen a thousand times by some, but this XKCD cartoon says it best.  In case you have never seen it.

 

 

So you somehow resort to cartoons when you lose an argument? This just isn't your day, lib.

 

 

[reason10]

 

 

 

LIberals are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO stupid.

[Rebound]

2 hours ago, West said:

That's your perversions, pal. Why we won't see eye to eye

You’re the one bringing up these ridiculous sexual nonsense accusations. 

Third graders can come up with better arguments than “Everybody who disagrees with me is wrong cause they’re a pervert. Duh-yuh-duh-der.”  

[bcsapper]

20 minutes ago, reason10 said:

So you somehow resort to cartoons when you lose an argument? This just isn't your day, lib.

 

 

 

14 minutes ago, reason10 said:

 

 

 

LIberals are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO stupid.

My cartoon explained to you a point about freedom of speech that you didn't get.

Your cartoons are dumb.

And yet, in their way, they do prove my point.