Rebuilding the World

[Goddess]

43 minutes ago, dialamah said:

@GoddessPeople who know what they are talking about, experts in their field. This excludes GPs or those who have expertise in other fields. It excludes laypeople who think their research skills put them at the same level as the experts.

The stories you post are always so biased, it takes only a little research to demonstrate that only part of the story is being told - the part that substantiates what you want to believe.  And when this is pointed out to you, you deny and go on rants.

 

So no answers, no information, no reflection on the points made, just insults again.

Okaaaayyyyyy.

[Goddess]

51 minutes ago, dialamah said:

@GoddessPeople who know what they are talking about, experts in their field. This excludes GPs or those who have expertise in other fields. It excludes laypeople who think their research skills put them at the same level as the experts.

The stories you post are always so biased, it takes only a little research to demonstrate that only part of the story is being told - the part that substantiates what you want to believe.  And when this is pointed out to you, you deny and go on rants.

 

I don't know what to tell ya -

The experts I follow told me before the jabs came out that they would not stop transmission.  Your experts told you they would. My experts were right, yours were wrong.

The experts I follow said the PCR tests were crappy, your experts insisted they be used.  My experts were right, yours were wrong.

The modelling experts I follow have been right.  Yours have been wrong.

The experts I follow reported myocarditis, menstrua issues, cardiac issues and other adverse events, while your experts denied them until they were forced to admit.

What do you want me say?  "Sorry the experts you follow are power-grabbing, money-grubbing dolts and mine are always right."

What I wrote above was not a RANT.  You said you wanted MORE clamping down on "misinformation" than you had seen during this pandemic.  I pointed out that the world's best doctors and scientists, who have since been proven CORRECT while yours have been proven WRONG, have all lost their careers and been publicly villified.

So what MORE do you want?  They were silenced.  What MORE do you want?  Jail?  Camps? Firing squads?  You said there wasn't enough done to silence scientific discussion.  I think it was pretty much silenced. 

So WHAT. MORE. DO. YOU. WANT?

[Goddess]

We are just beginning to understand the devastating consequences of the world-wide, never before done experiment with LOCKDOWNS.

Freedom of movement, of association, access to public spaces and events - these quickly went from rights to special privileges granted by governments as a reward for good behaviour.  People accepted this bargain under conditions of psychological duress. Most citizens were willing to do ANYTHING if it meant a return to normal life that had been stripped away.

From "The New Abnormal":

We relinquished freedoms that were not even abandoned by the citizens of London when the city was being bombed during WWll.

I think we're all aware of the economic consequences, which we will deal with for many years to come.

But what of the societal consequences of years long total cessation of all activities and social relationships, which were presented to the public as the ultimate act of civic participation and was largely unquestioned by a terrorized citizenry?

In 2020, we had ZERO  evidence that lockdowns saved lives, only failed mathematical models.

Consider Japan's experience which saw MORE suicides in October of 2020 than people who died of covid, which I believe reflects similar in the rest of the world.  For instance, anecdotally, in my own circle of friends, there were 3 young adult suicides during this period of time.

Suicide claimed more Japanese lives in October than 10 months of COVID - CBS News

While Japan has managed its coronavirus epidemic far better than many nations, keeping deaths below 2,000 nationwide, provisional statistics from the National Police Agency show suicides surged to 2,153 in October alone, marking the fourth straight month of increase.

To date, more than 17,000 people have taken their own lives this year in Japan. October self-inflicted deaths were up 600 year on year, with female suicides, about a third of the total, surging over 80%.

Women, who have primary responsibility for childcare, have borne the brunt of pandemic-induced job losses and insecurity. They're also at greater risk of domestic violence, which help centers say has worsened here this year, as it has around the world.

"You don't think the worst is over?" correspondent Susan Spencer asked her.

"No, not at all. No, I think in a way the worst is yet to come, in terms of mental health. There's gonna be tremendous grief and mourning for all the lost people, and the lost opportunities, and the lost dreams and hopes that people had."

More than half (53%) of American adults said in a recent survey that their mental health had suffered because of the pandemic. Prescriptions for antidepressants shot up 14% after the initial outbreak.

 

I would be interested in seeing what evidence you lockdown supporters have, that shows lockdowns saved lives overall.

Because if you don't have the evidence, I think this is one "public health intervention" that we should strongly oppose in future - both for pandemic response and any climate "crises".

Edited January 29, 2023 by Goddess

[Goddess]

The coronavirus pandemic conferred enormous power on certain government officials. They have no intention of giving it up.

In the space of a few weeks in early 2020, Americans witnessed the imposition of previously unimagined social controls by the biomedical security state—the unelected technocrats who suddenly enjoyed nearly absolute power to incarcerate, isolate, and medicate the entire population. In this chilling new book, a dissident scientist reveals

• the people and organizations that form the biomedical security state
• its role in the origin of the pandemic and shaping the government response
• why it is a threat to science, public health, and individual freedom
• what can be done to confront and defeat this new Leviathan

When covid-19 broke out, Dr. Aaron Kheriaty’s work put him on the front lines. Realizing that the mental, physical, and economic toll of lockdowns was catastrophic, he began to protest that the cure was worse than the disease—an intolerable heresy. When he refused vaccination because he had natural immunity from a previous infection, the University of California, Irvine, medical school fired him. He fought back, in the courts and in the media, and has become a reliable source of truth amid official obfuscation and censorship.

Now it’s time for all of us to fight back. The deadly and arrogant misrule of the biomedical security state must not become the "new normal."

 

 

Quote

 

About the Author

Aaron Kheriaty, M.D., a psychiatrist, is the director of the Program in Bioethics and American Democracy at the Ethics and Public Policy Center in Washington, D.C., and the director of the Health and Human Flourishing Program at the Zephyr Institute in Palo Alto, Calif. He formerly taught psychiatry at the UCI School of Medicine, was the director of the Medical Ethics Program at UCI Health, and was the chairman of the ethics committee at the California Department of State Hospitals. Dr. Kheriaty’s work has appeared in the Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, Arc Digital, New Atlantis, Public Discourse, City Journal, and First Things.

 

 

[eyeball]

53 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I would be interested in seeing what evidence you lockdown supporters have, that shows lockdowns saved lives overall.

I doubt you'll be very interested at all but for what it's worth...The Spanish flu epidemic provided all we needed to know that lockdowns work to save lives and speed up the economic recovery that follows. We went into COVID knowing full well that jurisdictions which locked down sooner and that resisted the urge to lift restrictions too early during the Spanish flu fared better than jurisdictions that didn't.

Social distancing isn’t a new idea—it saved thousands of American lives during the last great pandemic. Here's how it worked.

In those days it was city authorities who were responsible for ordering or not ordering measures designed to cope with the epidemic. So there is and always was plenty of evidence of what we could expect going into COVID in terms of saving lives and predicting outcomes.

I doubt if you'll recall but I said in early March 2019 that Canada would fare much better than the US because of the far greater disdain US politicians had for taking measures and I think the death tolls in each country proved this and unless I'm mistaken our economy is also in better shape in terms of our recovery.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by eyeball

[Goddess]

It's a National Geographic article that I can't read, it's behind a paying firewall.  I tried to find it elsewhere but could not.  I did notice that article comes up on the first page of Google when you type in spanish flu ?

Perhaps I should have clarified the  evidence I'm looking for from you.  It would be scientific studies and datasets, not guestimates based on mathematical modelling.  It would have to show that the benefits of lockdowns exceeded the collateral damage such as economic loss and mental, emotional and societal public health, as I illustrated with the post above.

My understanding of the Spanish flu is that it was herd immunity, not lockdowns that eventually caused it to burn out.

How did the 1918 Flu Pandemic End? Lessons for COVID-19 | Time

“The end of the pandemic occurred because the virus circulated around the globe, infecting enough people that the world population no longer had enough susceptible people in order for the strain to become a pandemic once again,” says medical historian J. Alexander Navarro, Markel’s colleague and the Assistant Director of the Center for the History of Medicine. “When you get enough people who get immunity, the infection will slowly die out because it’s harder for the virus to find new susceptible hosts.”

 

Coronavirus: How they tried to curb Spanish flu pandemic in 1918 - BBC News

There was no centrally imposed lockdown to curb the spread of infection, although many theatres, dance halls, cinemas and churches were closed, in some cases for months.

 

I really appreciate your thoughtful response, Eyeball.  Thank you.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by Goddess

[eyeball]

51 minutes ago, Goddess said:

It's a National Geographic article that I can't read, it's behind a paying firewall.  I tried to find it elsewhere but could not.  I did notice that article comes up on the first page of Google when you type in spanish flu ?

Oh shoot, I keep forgetting National Geographic like Scientific American and Google are in cahoots with the conspiracy to infect/ enslave/eradicate us.

[eyeball]

You disagree Google is part of the effort to do whatever it is you believe is being done to you?

[Goddess]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

You disagree Google is part of the effort to do whatever it is you believe is being done to you?

I disagree that if you want to rebut a well-thought out post with links and references and clear explanations, that a quick Google and picking the first post that pops up that agrees with your already-decided-upon stance, is good debate.

 

[eyeball]

11 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I disagree that if you want to rebut a well-thought out post with links and references and clear explanations, that a quick Google and picking the first post that pops up that agrees with your already-decided-upon stance, is good debate.

 

And I said I was doubtful you'd show any interest in anything that refutes your conclusions.

Not surprisingly you did so immediately and in typical fashion by implying Google is amongst all conspirators you seem to think are out to deceive you.

'Ohhh it was at the top of Googles search list'...cue the Theremin music...

Edited January 29, 2023 by eyeball

[Goddess]

14 minutes ago, eyeball said:

And I said I was doubtful you'd show any interest in anything that refutes your conclusions.

I have done more research on whether lockdowns work or don't work than you have.

But let's just use our common sense for now:

Based on what we see today, did lockdowns stop transmission enough, that it justified the destruction of the world's economy and the crises in mental health, addictions, child education or any other aspect of life?

[eyeball]

10 minutes ago, Goddess said:

I have done more research on whether lockdowns work or don't work than you have.

So what? Quantity is a poor replacement for quality.

In any case you said lockdowns were unprecedented which was wrong. We had the experience and lots of data from Spanish Flu that could have easily given us clues as to what to do, why and what to expect.

We definitely could have seen that lots of people would stick their fingers in their ears and scream la la la in scorn of the pandemic and that's exactly what happened.

Maybe next time try following the history.

Edited January 29, 2023 by eyeball

[Goddess]

10 minutes ago, eyeball said:

In any case you said lockdowns were unprecedented which was wrong.

OK. Find me the info on when the entire world was locked down in their individual homes for years and how that went.

I have to go walk my dog now. Hope you have a great afternoon, too.

[eyeball]

8 hours ago, Goddess said:

I have done more research on whether lockdowns work or don't work than you have.

But let's just use our common sense for now:

Based on what we see today, did lockdowns stop transmission enough, that it justified the destruction of the world's economy and the crises in mental health, addictions, child education or any other aspect of life?

COVID lockdowns slowed things down enough for the development of a vaccine to take place. We could have waited for the herd immunity you said put a stop to the Spanish Flu but at what cost? Over 30% of the human population was killed before the Spanish Flu burned out.

I'd say that despite our impatience we got off very very lucky.

Edited January 30, 2023 by eyeball

[eyeball]

1 minute ago, Goddess said:

OK. Find me the info on when the entire world was locked down in their individual homes for years and how that went.

I have to go walk my dog now. Hope you have a great afternoon, too.

You didn't leave your house at all during COVID and you're saying the entire human race stayed indoors and never went out for years?

That's complete nonsense and you know it.

Faith is the belief in things you know aren't true.

 

[Goddess]

Folks like you are far happier when they're in lockdown.  Weird people.

[dialamah]

53 minutes ago, Goddess said:

Folks like you are far happier when they're in lockdown.  Weird people.

Folks like you are far happier in a cult-like belief system.  That's really messed up.

[Goddess]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Folks like you are far happier in a cult-like belief system.  That's really messed up.

? Hi Dialamah ?

I'm heading over to the Proportional Representation thread now.

Just letting you know so you don't have to go running around the board looking for me. ?

[dialamah]

44 minutes ago, Goddess said:

? Hi Dialamah ?

I'm heading over to the Proportional Representation thread now.

Just letting you know so you don't have to go running around the board looking for me. ?

You shouldn't make it so obvious that you're bothered by the light I shine on your BS.

[Boges]

On 1/27/2023 at 3:06 PM, TreeBeard said:

I think this is a bit of false equivalence.  I’m not sure I’ve seen or heard from anyone who wants everyone to wear a mask in many months.  And none in this forum. 
 

I can’t say the same for the COVID conspiracy nuts. 

You have to look for them on Twitter. But yeah, if you're not on the internet you wouldn't notice. Both are quite marginalized in most public discourse.  

I'd be surprised if PP even courts "that lot" in the next election. It's basically what sunk O'Toole. 

[Boges]

16 hours ago, Goddess said:

I have done more research on whether lockdowns work or don't work than you have.

But let's just use our common sense for now:

Based on what we see today, did lockdowns stop transmission enough, that it justified the destruction of the world's economy and the crises in mental health, addictions, child education or any other aspect of life?

They actually worked quite well. Now they caused a myriad of other problems that begs the question as to whether they were worth it. But if you want to slow the spread of a disease, shutting down businesses where indoor socializing is the point of said business, is an excellent way to do it. 

See how China is basically a time machine of 2021 in how they're experiencing COVID because they locked down their people for so long. 

Edited January 30, 2023 by Boges

[Goddess]

I think the supporters of everything covid restrictions are going to find you're not the majority you think you are any more.

Even mainstream is starting to grow some beach balls:

It's Time for the Scientific Community to Admit We Were Wrong About COVID and It Cost Lives | Opinion (msn.com)

I can see now that the scientific community from the CDC to the WHO to the FDA and their representatives, repeatedly overstated the evidence and misled the public about its own views and policies, including on natural vs. artificial immunity, school closures and disease transmission, aerosol spread, mask mandates, and vaccine effectiveness and safety, especially among the young. All of these were scientific mistakes at the time, not in hindsight. Amazingly, some of these obfuscations continue to the present day.

 

What we did not properly appreciate is that preferences determine how scientific expertise is used, and that our preferences might be—indeed, our preferences were—very different from many of the people that we serve. We created policy based on our preferences, then justified it using data. And then we portrayed those opposing our efforts as misguided, ignorant, selfish, and evil.

We made science a team sport, and in so doing, we made it no longer science. It became us versus them, and "they" responded the only way anyone might expect them to: by resisting.

We excluded important parts of the population from policy development and castigated critics, which meant that we deployed a monolithic response across an exceptionally diverse nation, forged a society more fractured than ever, and exacerbated longstanding heath and economic disparities.

Most of us did not speak up in support of alternative views, and many of us tried to suppress them. When strong scientific voices like world-renowned Stanford professors John Ioannidis, Jay Bhattacharya, and Scott Atlas, or University of California San Francisco professors Vinay Prasad and Monica Gandhi, sounded the alarm on behalf of vulnerable communities, they faced severe censure by relentless mobs of critics and detractors in the scientific community—often not on the basis of fact but solely on the basis of differences in scientific opinion.

Edited January 31, 2023 by Goddess

[Goddess]

The doctors and scientists mentioned in the last paragraph are all the ones I have been following throughout covid.

I told you, @dialamah, the experts I follow have been right all along. Yours have been wrong.

[Goddess]

We crafted policy for the people without consulting them. If our public health officials had led with less hubris, the course of the pandemic in the United States might have had a very different outcome, with far fewer lost lives.

Instead, we have witnessed a massive and ongoing loss of life in America due to distrust of vaccines and the healthcare system; a massive concentration in wealth by already wealthy elites; a rise in suicides and gun violence especially among the poor; a near-doubling of the rate of depression and anxiety disorders especially among the young; a catastrophic loss of educational attainment among already disadvantaged children; and among those most vulnerable, a massive loss of trust in healthcare, science, scientific authorities, and political leaders more broadly.

 

[Goddess]

There was this statement in another article I read today, but I was at work and neglected to save the link.  

 

Quote

Perhaps inevitably, the chaotic and extraordinary circumstances of COVID-19 yielded an awful lot of institutional overreach and mismanagement.

We really need to awaken to what really went on during covid, or they'll do it again with climate and whatever the next pandemic is that Gates has planned for us.