Moonbox Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 3 hours ago, blackbird said: Electoral reform at the federal level would require a Constitutional amendment which is very difficult and therefore unlikely to happen. Its a dead issue. I agree with blackbird here for a change. Good luck making any changes on this, but don't point to it being a substantially superior model anyways. There are advantages and disadvantages. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 12 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said: Good governance is more important As decided by the government? Great. Full circle - and how else if and when any meaningful change is a dreaded anathema. Dinosaurs knew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 26 minutes ago, Moonbox said: it being a substantially superior model It is superior on a principally higher level: it allows all necessary changes required and demanded by the citizens, while in Canada's parody of democracy, just forget it and good luck. "Such a can of worms" should be the national motto. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenmandy85 Posted January 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 6 hours ago, myata said: It is superior on a principally higher level: it allows all necessary changes required and demanded by the citizens, while in Canada's parody of democracy, Why are you so invested in the idea of "democracy?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 10 hours ago, herbie said: Yeah it would. That's not how Parliamentary democracies work, the leader of the party with the most seats is the Prime Minister. His party elects him, and voters must elect him(or her) to a seat in Parliament. That's what a Prime Minister IS. Now if you want to make the Governor General, the Head of State (like a President), I'm with you on that. So long as they have no more powers than the GG does now and is unable to be a genuine King Shit. I get the sense this would be viewed as an even more radical departure. I subscribe to the drive-it-till it-breaks school of reform simply because nothing lasts forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 9 hours ago, myata said: It is superior on a principally higher level: it allows all necessary changes required and demanded by the citizens, while in Canada's parody of democracy, just forget it and good luck. "Such a can of worms" should be the national motto. As usual, we have a lot of words here and very little substance. It allows ALL necessary changes...oookay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenmandy85 Posted January 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 11 hours ago, herbie said: Now if you want to make the Governor General, the Head of State (like a President), I'm with you on that. So long as they have no more powers than the GG does now and is unable to be a genuine King... Why would you want to make the Governor General Head of State? If the Head of State is like a president, you not only have a politician as the personification of the country but you become a republic like Russia, China, Zimbabwe or the US. Our current Head of State has trained for the role for over 55 years. I cannot think of another Head of State better equipped for the role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenmandy85 Posted January 23, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 21 hours ago, eyeball said: Am I safe to assume making the PM's election by secret ballot would trigger some sort of Constitutional calamity that would destroy Confederation? Dang, it's always something. I don't think electoral change requires a constitutional amendment but it should have consensus of all members of Parliament. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 23 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said: Why would you want to make the Governor General Head of State? If the Head of State is like a president, you not only have a politician as the personification of the country but you become a republic like Russia, China, Zimbabwe or the US. Our current Head of State has trained for the role for over 55 years. I cannot think of another Head of State better equipped for the role. Maybe it's Canadians who aren't properly equipped. There's a lot to be said about Canadian public trust or lack thereof in our government but perhaps we also need to ask if our government mistrusts us as well. I would have to say it clearly does mistrust us but I don't know what we've done to deserve it. Edited January 24, 2023 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suds Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 12 hours ago, Moonbox said: I agree with blackbird here for a change. Good luck making any changes on this, but don't point to it being a substantially superior model anyways. There are advantages and disadvantages. It's my understanding that reforming the Senate would require a constitutional amendment, but not in changing the House of Commons' electoral system to proportional representation. All that might be necessary is an amendment to the Canada Elections Act which parliament could easily do on its own. Could either you or blackbird expand on this a bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 That argument isn't settled. There are some that point to the Senate decisions back in 2014 as evidence of electoral reform requiring Constitutional Amendments, and there are people that disagree. At the very least, there would be a legal battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suds Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Moonbox said: That argument isn't settled. There are some that point to the Senate decisions back in 2014 as evidence of electoral reform requiring Constitutional Amendments, and there are people that disagree. At the very least, there would be a legal battle. The Supreme Court has ruled on Senate reform requiring a constitutional amendment. Instead of another politician dragging the country through this business of electoral reform for the House of Commons again, my advice would be.... check with the Supreme Court first. Btw, I sincerely hope a constitutional amendment is required. Edited January 23, 2023 by suds 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
herbie Posted January 23, 2023 Report Share Posted January 23, 2023 2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said: Why would you want to make the Governor General Head of State? The GG is already Canada's representative of the Head of State (Chucky). As the Monarch does S.F.A. the GG is defacto the Head of State already. There's only disadvantages to being a Republic with a President. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500channelsurfer Posted January 24, 2023 Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 Culturally, the vast majority of voters vote for party and leader over local candidate whether PR or FPTP. With PR, there is even less local control, and candidates are even more tied to party leaders while ridings have even less attachment to their local candidates. The "pizza pie" parliaments in Europe and elsewhere prove PR causes less stable governments and more gridlock. However, the FPTP system causes such voting distortions between popular vote and parliamentary representation perhaps we should adopt a multi-member plurality system where second-place candidates also gain a seat in parliament only if the riding vote is close enough. It is also time to replace the Monarchy with the Governor General as Head of State, while leaving it a symbolic role only, except for decision to dissolve Parliament and call an election vs. appoint other coalition or whatnot. Maybe the GG could also be elected and party-affiliated, as long as it is a one-ballot deal at the same time as general elections. No mathematical-formula based elections that cause wasted time and money and weeks of each side campaigning in runoffs that destabilize the country, as we see in Brazil and France. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 24, 2023 Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 18 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said: Why are you so invested in the idea of "democracy?" I only answer it one more time because you tend to not notice or forget. Sure you can be a monarchy, a King's Holy Protectorate or Crown's Dominion whatever. Just say it openly and honestly. Don't hide it in pretty democratic gowns. In this century. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 24, 2023 Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) 17 hours ago, Moonbox said: As usual, we have a lot of words here and very little substance. Can't disagree less. Just recall the last time you heard "oh it's such a can of worms let's put it off till the next century" from a truly representative and functional body in a real democracy. In the last several decades sooooooo many things happened... elsewhere. How hard should it be to get: you can claim to be a modern vigorous democracy (poster); and you can behave like tired hopeless backwaters, bog where nothing real happens, ever. But it's funny and silly to do both and at the same time. Like in the old story, everybody sees it except you. Edited January 24, 2023 by myata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 24, 2023 Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 The substantiation of PR is not the ease of governance; the usual, standard Canadian way of setting the question upside down. It is the principle: a democratic government has to represent real people accurately not some contorted figure of them. In Canada, we do not have accurate representation, not just numerically, but even more importantly, in composition, parties just cannot make it there beyond the default two and a quarter. And we don't have independent local representatives, they are employees of central committees. So where is the democracy in this picture? A poster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 24, 2023 Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) Like what kind of a dum- (scratch) political genius designs a critical democratic system in such a way that it couldn't be updated, ever? Just look around everything looks just like in 1867 not so? What kind of responsible representatives (wink-wink) nod it without a glimpse of a thought, how it's going to work in the real, practical world? If we aren't careful now, this democracy" can become the laughing stock of the democratic world, if only anybody cared to notice and get it (as of now they do only in an urgent need to rubberstamp some smelly business, just send it off to Canada). Is it just good humored simplemindedness or a purpose? How could we know? Edited January 24, 2023 by myata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenmandy85 Posted January 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 3 hours ago, myata said: Like what kind of a dum- (scratch) political genius designs a critical democratic system in such a way that it couldn't be updated, ever? Just look around everything looks just like in 1867 not so? What kind of responsible representatives (wink-wink) nod it without a glimpse of a thought, how it's going to work in the real, practical world? If we aren't careful now, this democracy" can become the laughing stock of the democratic world, if only anybody cared to notice and get it (as of now they do only in an urgent need to rubberstamp some smelly business, just send it off to Canada). Is it just good humored simplemindedness or a purpose? How could we know? You keep referring to "representatives." Our system is "responsible " government. An MP stands in her place to decide issues based on what she feels is best for all Canadians. Your MP has the resources and time to research an issue in greater depth than the electorate has. Her decisions are educated decisions. There is no "democratic world." There are monarchies like Norway, Canada and Japan, republics like Uganda, Russia, Israel and the USA. Then there are military dictatorships like Myanmar and anarchy states like Haiti. Israel has PR. Does the current government in any way reflect the will of the people or even good governance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenmandy85 Posted January 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) PR leads to extremist political parties having far more power to influence policy. Look at the parties in Greece, Israel, Italy. You get a leading political party that needs just a few more seats, so they invite the little parties representing fascists or communists into a coalition. These parties may only have 3 seats, but they can keep the government in power. Once they get their feet under the cabinet table, the extorsion begins. We are getting a taste of this in Canada with the Liberal- NDP accord. The NDP is trying to influence policy in a manner not reflected in their numbers. So far, they have not been very successful because as a party, they are broke and a scared of an election. Edited January 24, 2023 by Queenmandy85 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 24, 2023 Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said: monarchies like Norway, Canada and Japan, My apologies. This is so clueless that it's not possible to cover the topic intelligently within the natural limits of this format. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 24, 2023 Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said: You keep referring to "representatives." Our system is "responsible " government. An MP stands in her place to decide issues based on what she feels is best for all Canadians. Your MP has the resources and time to research an issue in greater depth than the electorate has. Her decisions are educated decisions. This is a pretty big departure from what the electorate is sold. Our MPs don't represent their constituents they're responsible for them - "if you elect me you can trust me to be more responsible for your interests than the other guy". When's the last time anyone heard something like this during an election campaign? Quote There is no "democratic world." There are monarchies like Norway, Canada and Japan, republics like Uganda, Russia, Israel and the USA. Then there are military dictatorships like Myanmar and anarchy states like Haiti. Israel has PR. Does the current government in any way reflect the will of the people or even good governance? There is a value every single government on Earth has in common that is inimical to the public interest, secrecy. Resolving that is the key to better governance everywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenmandy85 Posted January 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 34 minutes ago, eyeball said: This is a pretty big departure from what the electorate is sold. Our MPs don't represent their constituents they're responsible for them - "if you elect me you can trust me to be more responsible for your interests than the other guy". When's the last time anyone heard something like this during an election campaign? In your Canadian history classes. Americans have representative government. Canadians have responsible government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queenmandy85 Posted January 24, 2023 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) 59 minutes ago, myata said: My apologies. This is so clueless that it's not possible to cover the topic intelligently within the natural limits of this format. Apology accepted. So, from what I understand you are saying is that Norway, Canada and Japan are not monarchies. I'm not sure which one of us is clueless. I admit, I am not that sharp. ? What position does His Majesty, Emperor Naruhito hold, if he is not the Monarch of Japan? Edited January 24, 2023 by Queenmandy85 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 24, 2023 Report Share Posted January 24, 2023 22 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said: In your Canadian history classes. Americans have representative government. Canadians have responsible government. I haven't heard any reform minded Canadians calling for irresponsibility. If anything they're calling for more responsibility. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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