SpankyMcFarland Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 6 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: I don't write or collate the reports or links. Research and come up with better numbers, although I really do not care that much. I am only dispelling misinformation by the OP. 12 deaths per year would surely mean a rate of less than 1 per million per year for Ontario, or 1 death every two years for NL? That’s way too low. Other reports have already been referred to that offer more plausible numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 1 minute ago, SpankyMcFarland said: 12 deaths per year would surely mean a rate of less than 1 per million per year for Ontario, or 1 death every two years for NL? That’s way too low. Other reports have already been referred to that offer more plausible numbers. Why argue with me? I only provided a link (and an old one at that and said so). Question the link? Then do some research and provide better or newer or more self full filling data LOL Your opinion means nothing to me as I have already told you I do not care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 (edited) 35 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: What is hostile about using outside sources to solve problems?? How outside sources derive their manpower is not an Ontario issue unless you are wanting Ontario to step in and disallow workers from taking on additional part time positions? I have to get infusions on a regular basis and almost all the nurses working there are full time hospital workers and are working at the infusion clinic part time. Ford just announced a health care initiative and now he realizes he doesn’t have the staff to carry it out! Ontario should be providing its own manpower, not stealing from poorer provinces that are struggling to retain their own physicians in a time of crisis. Why bother having a country at all if this is going to be the attitude? Edited January 19 by SpankyMcFarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 (edited) 40 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: Ford just announced a health care initiative and now he realizes he doesn’t have the staff to carry it out! Ontario should be providing its own manpower, not stealing from poorer provinces that are struggling to retain their own physicians in a time of crisis. Why bother having a country at all if this is going to be the attitude? The initiative is to allow private clinics to carry our surgeries as the hospital backlogs are too large. What he announced is smart. What manpower??? As I told you before, doctors and nurses wanting to do part time work in private clinics are free to do so. Also, if any doctor nurse or any worker want to move from one province to another for wok, they can and do, regularly, now. Are you implying restrictions should be placed on workers? Provinces regulate their own health care.. it is not a national system. Workers can go where they want. Not sure what you are trying to imply. It is clear you do not know as much as you think about this situation. All provinces are recruiting health care workers. Even health care districts within the provinces are recruiting workers from other districts. Workers have the right to do and work for what is best for them. Edited January 19 by ExFlyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 51 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: The initiative is to allow private clinics to carry our surgeries as the hospital backlogs are too large. What he announced is smart. What manpower??? As I told you before, doctors and nurses wanting to do part time work in private clinics are free to do so.bThe point of this initiative is to increase medical services. While this may be theoretical possible with the same staff I am sceptical and I’ll include a few links below. The whole point of Ford’s initiative is to increase services, a laudable aim in itself. However, it is highly unlikely this can be achieved with the same staff numbers in the province as the Premier claims. Some physicians in Ontario share my scepticism and I’ll include those links below. 51 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: Provinces regulate their own health care.. it is not a national system. Workers can go where they want. Not sure what you are trying to imply. Radical unilateral initiatives will only serve to fracture Canadian health care still further. 51 minutes ago, ExFlyer said: It is clear you do not know as much as you think about this situation. Do you know what the expression, ‘play the ball, not the man’, means? I should emphasize that I have no objection to new health care initiatives. IMO Ford’s initiative and even more radical ones are inevitable given our health care crisis. They will require more manpower, though. That much should be obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 Two Toronto physicians share their opinion: Quote The province’s plan allowing private clinics to perform more procedures has the potential to help reduce Ontario’s surgical backlog, experts say, but the details of the plan will be telling. “I think there are some outstanding questions based on the announcement from the government,” Dr. Fahad Razak, former chair of Ontario’s COVID-19 Science Table and internist at St. Michael's Hospital, told CTV News Toronto. Quote Little more information was provided as to where new staff would come from, but Jones did say that any new clinics will have to provide a human resources plan. “There's no plan that I've heard described so far about where the staffing will come from, for these private facilities,” Razak said. “And the worry, and I think a well based worry, is that the staffing will come by draining some of the stuff from the public system, which is already very short staffed.” Instead, Razak said it would have been ideal to invest further resources into the province’s existing system, hiring more staff, and allowing surgeries to be done outside of the regular nine to five hours. “Why not take existing operating rooms within hospitals, the hundreds of hospitals across the province that have these operating rooms, and maximize the usage of these operating rooms to catch up on the backlog?” Leslie Boer, a professor at the University of Toronto specializing in surgery privatization, feels the same way. He said that while the usage of private clinics elsewhere in Canada and around the world has worked well, Ontario needs to stay focused on ensuring its public system is operating well. Quote https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/will-doug-ford-s-healthcare-plan-work-here-s-what-some-experts-think-1.6236190 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 And the Registrar at the CPSO weighs in: Quote Hospital staffing shortages will be exacerbated and the wait times for urgent care will grow if the Ford government expands the use of privately operated clinics amid a COVID-19 surgical backlog, the regulatory body for Ontario doctors says. Quote …in a statement provided to CP24 on Friday the registrar and CEO of the college Dr. Nancy Whitmore warned that any expansion of the use of private surgical centres would create challenges for hospitals which are already struggling to keep up with surging patient volumes. “Many months ago, we were consulted and shared our opinion that stand-alone surgical centers need to be connected to the hospital system to ensure continuity of care and patient safety. We also shared that this wasn’t the solution to the health care crisis and would further tax our health Human Resources shortages and further increase wait times for more urgent hospital-based care,” she said. “We have not recently been engaged in the conversation and were not informed that this was being announced”. https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/expanding-private-ontario-clinics-will-only-exacerbate-hospital-staffing-shortages-doctors-college-warns-1.6229561 Just to reiterate, I’m not opposed to this proposal, merely doubtful that it can be done in a manpower-neutral way. It looks like at least a few Ontario physicians share that concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 (edited) Something else I can tell you (again) from the UK’s NHS: you cannot serve two masters. If you’re working in two systems you will end up favouring one over the other. To avoid such complications, any system working beside the conventional public one should have its own staff. Edited January 19 by SpankyMcFarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Groot Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 6 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: Oh dear, so this is how Ontario plans to plug its manpower gaps. Talk about a hostile move. https://www.cp24.com/news/ontario-looking-to-poach-health-care-workers-from-other-provinces-to-fill-shortages-1.6237423 Should have been done long ago. It's ridiculous that being a nurse/doctor in one province doesn't automatically allow you to move to another province and work there. Now open up the border to registered, trained healthcare workers from the US and western Europe, too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I am Groot Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 A lot of caterwauling over the doctors at clinics being allowed to try to 'upsell' patients for things like better quality lenses when doing cataract surgery. Until now I didn't even know OHIP didn't use the best lenses. I have two of them in my skull and wonder if I could have had slightly clearer/better vision if I'd gone to a private clinic... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcsapper Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 (edited) 2 minutes ago, I am Groot said: A lot of caterwauling over the doctors at clinics being allowed to try to 'upsell' patients for things like better quality lenses when doing cataract surgery. Until now I didn't even know OHIP didn't use the best lenses. I have two of them in my skull and wonder if I could have had slightly clearer/better vision if I'd gone to a private clinic... But then you would have had better vision than someone who couldn't afford to. It's not like you can get a better car, or better food, by paying more for such things, so why should you be able to pay for better vision? Edited January 19 by bcsapper It's weird how many times I type that when I mean than. It's not like T and N are next to each other on the keyboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted January 19 Report Share Posted January 19 (edited) 3 hours ago, I am Groot said: Should have been done long ago. It's ridiculous that being a nurse/doctor in one province doesn't automatically allow you to move to another province and work there. Now open up the border to registered, trained healthcare workers from the US and western Europe, too. It is strange that we have 13 regulatory bodies for doctors in this country while the UK, with double the population, manages with one. Time will tell how this tussle works out between Ford and the licensing authorities. He may not have dealt with them much before and will have his work well and truly cut out there. Historically, the Colleges had very different requirements so that an IMG might only have been eligible to work in NL, the Prairies or the Maritimes. If a significant brain drain does occur I suspect we might see more ‘diversity’ on those standards again which would increase recruitment and limit movement to greener pastures. Edited January 20 by SpankyMcFarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 29 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said: He may not have dealt with them much before and wi Hint: Doug Ford has not dealt with anything much before. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted January 20 Report Share Posted January 20 (edited) 13 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: The whole point of Ford’s initiative is to increase services, a laudable aim in itself. However, it is highly unlikely this can be achieved with the same staff numbers in the province as the Premier claims. Some physicians in Ontario share my scepticism and I’ll include those links below. Radical unilateral initiatives will only serve to fracture Canadian health care still further. Do you know what the expression, ‘play the ball, not the man’, means? I should emphasize that I have no objection to new health care initiatives. IMO Ford’s initiative and even more radical ones are inevitable given our health care crisis. They will require more manpower, though. That much should be obvious. Play the ball??? OK, he is trying to recruit more "manpower". Just like every other province and health centre in the country is trying to recruit more health worker manpower. You cannot snap your fingers and magically make them appear. It takes years to make doctors and nurses so, they have to be recruited. He is not offering any incentives like other jurisdiction are. The links you provided that have questions and criticisms are moot. Where were these guys when asked for solutions or suggestions? What assistance have they provided? One of my first bosses said to me "don't just come to me with problems, come with some solutions". I have never forgotten that and often think of that when all the critics come out after every announcement. Not sure what your point is or what your complaint is. Edited January 20 by ExFlyer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suds Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 Public.... private.... who cares. What we have now isn't working. Just make it work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 (edited) More than two million Ontarians, according to a recent report, do not have a family doctor and some tell CBC Toronto they are going to drastic lengths looking for solutions. Full article with some of the answers: https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/your-challenges-getting-a-doctor-1.6744969?cmp=rss Edited February 12 by Contrarian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 On 1/16/2023 at 11:42 AM, Michael Hardner said: 1. I'm in favour as long as it's single payer. Isn't most healthcare outside hospitals privately operated but paid for with the health card insurance? Gov rates though. If truly private healthcare can charge whatever they want and charge it to the government, that sounds like a recipe for abuse. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 Just now, Moonlight Graham said: 1. Isn't most healthcare outside hospitals privately operated but paid for with the health card insurance? Gov rates though. 2. If truly private healthcare can charge whatever they want and charge it to the government, that sounds like a recipe for abuse. 1. That's probably right. 2. And that's not happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said: 1. That's probably right. 2. And that's not happening. 2. How would it be "private care" then? Private care to me is paying out of pocket or using private insurance. Uber-private would be that plus vendors could charge whatever they want. Me thinks a lot of elected members in the PC party don't really want to fix the system so people get fed up and become ok with some privatization. Mission-creep. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 39 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said: 2. How would it be "private care" then? Private care to me is paying out of pocket or using private insurance. Uber-private would be that plus vendors could charge whatever they want. Me thinks a lot of elected members in the PC party don't really want to fix the system so people get fed up and become ok with some privatization. Mission-creep. But it's still single payer. It's a very very slight change from what was done before. Basically an organization runs the services for profit. My NDP friends would faint but I'm for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said: But it's still single payer. It's a very very slight change from what was done before. Basically an organization runs the services for profit. My NDP friends would faint but I'm for it. That's exactly what happens now though. A doctor's office isn't owned by the government. The doc pays the overhead, pays the secretary & nurses, and keeps the rest. Profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted February 12 Report Share Posted February 12 1 minute ago, Moonlight Graham said: That's exactly what happens now though. A doctor's office isn't owned by the government. The doc pays the overhead, pays the secretary & nurses, and keeps the rest. Profit. Exactly. What this move means is private hospitals doing charity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said: Exactly. What this move means is private hospitals doing charity. Hospitals? That's a longterm solution. If we want a publicly paid healthcare system to work then we need to fund it adequately. In emergencies like COVID take on debt to fund it, then raise taxes temporarily when the crisis is over to pay for it. The reason medical workers quit is because the work was too exhausting, they mismanaged them. And they didn't raise pay to persuade them to stay. The system is mismanaged, horribly, and has been for a long time. This is what you get with rationed government-funded care. Central planning often sucks, and is also akin to slavery (if your kid is sick you're at the whim of government rationing, you have to leave the country to get treated). If it were me I would get rid of the public system. Everyone would get a ton of tax money back in their pockets to buy their own insurance. It would be sort of like the dental system, but better, and far better than the US. Extremely well regulated to prevent greed and abuse. Pick your insurance company. Nobody can be declined for any health reason. Everyone gets the same type of plan coverage & access to treatment, rich or not. Regulate costs, no gouging. The poor (including poor old people) get covered by a government plan. If you aren't poor and you don't have a plan the gov picks a private plan for you plus a convenience free for the trouble, and its tacked onto your tax return. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 On 1/21/2023 at 2:55 PM, suds said: Public.... private.... who cares. What we have now isn't working. Just make it work. Is that you, Doug? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 13 Report Share Posted February 13 (edited) 5 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said: Extremely well regulated to prevent greed and abuse. Let me know how that works for you. Not just well regulated but extremely well regulated...to prevent greed and abuse? Bwahahahahaha! Edited February 13 by eyeball Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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