xul Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 N.S. woman dies after waiting 7 hours in hospital ER Quote He said they waited more than six hours in the emergency department before Allison was taken to a room inside the unit, which had no medical equipment. It would be another hour before she actually saw a doctor and received pain treatment. While having an X-ray taken, Allison’s condition worsened. Holthoff recounted how Allison screamed in pain while they tried to reposition her, and he tried to comfort her. Her eyes rolled back, he said, and the machines started beeping. “The next thing I hear was, ‘code blue, code blue in the X-ray’ in the PA system and from then on pretty quick that room was full of people,” he said. So where were these people in the first 6 or 7 hours? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 (edited) Well, the beauty of being in a Western Democracy is that tragedies like this get do not get swept under the rug. It is brought to public attention, outrage follows after which the system better itself. ---> If the system does not better itself then we (that includes you if you are Canadian citizen) vote them out. In some other countries, and you know this, me and you exchanged ideas, they (Chinese citizens, as an example) don't have an option to vote them out. One example is tovarish Xi in China. Forget voting him out, people rarely know there are even issues in society as the media, well is not even a media, the media is the e-mail in the morning from the CCP central committee. Any specific suggestion on how to improve our Canadian system or you are just pointing out a flaw for today? Edited January 11 by Contrarian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted January 11 Author Report Share Posted January 11 Canada to purchase U.S. missile defense system for Ukraine? Canadian governments have no money to hire more doctors in hospitals to save their citizens' lives, but has money to buy missiles from US for Ukraine? US, UK, France and Germany donate weapons because they are major arm producers in the world. Why doesn't Canada government just donate some made-in-Canada logs for Ukrainian to build their bunkers? I'm sure bunkers are just as good as SAMs on saving lives from enemy air raid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted January 11 Author Report Share Posted January 11 19 minutes ago, Contrarian said: Well, the beauty of being in a Western Democracy is that tragedies like this get do not get swept under the rug. It is brought to public attention, outrage follows after which the system better itself. ---> If the system does not better itself then we (that includes you if you are Canadian citizen) vote them out. In some other countries, and you know this, me and you exchanged ideas, they (Chinese citizens, as an example) don't have an option to vote them out. One example is tovarish Xi in China. Forget voting him out, people rarely know there are even issues in society as the media, well is not even a media, the media is the e-mail in the morning from the CCP central committee. Any specific suggestion on how to improve our Canadian system or you are just pointing out a flaw for today? Not get swept under the rug? Do you know last time, when a man died in ER of a hospital(this poor guy even didn't make to see a doctor before died), politicians, medias....all said they would review the case, find out what's wrong with the system and then fix it. A couple of years has past, what kind of improvement has been applied? As for vote, what good would it achieve if let inmates of concentrate camps vote to choose Hitler or Himmler to be their Fuhrer? Regardless who became the Fuhrer, they would still end up to die, wouldn't they? If CPC creates a ballot like this for Chinese people to choose the president and they hide behind to pull the strings of these puppets, is it much different from the current system? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 (edited) 8 hours ago, xul said: 1. Not get swept under the rug? Do you know last time, when a man died in ER of a hospital(this poor guy even didn't make to see a doctor before died), politicians, medias....all said they would review the case, find out what's wrong with the system and then fix it. A couple of years has past, what kind of improvement has been applied? 2. As for vote, what good would it achieve if let inmates of concentrate camps vote to choose Hitler or Himmler to be their Fuhrer? Regardless who became the Fuhrer, they would still end up to die, wouldn't they? If CPC creates a ballot like this for Chinese people to choose the president and they hide behind to pull the strings of these puppets, is it much different from the current system? 1. I mean we could play this game all day, pick up a microscope and we play like in soccer. You take a penalty, I take another one in terms of flaws and issues @ the medical system. I was about to send you a video from AFP, they went into rural China and found flaws too, many flaws, serious flaws. The game is boring and we get nowhere. 2. This is why i like to debate more a CCP sympathiser than a FSB sympathiser. To this day, I don't understand how foreign policy advisers in China (which is set to be number 1 in Artificial Intelligence in the future) thought being closer to Russia, a federation which is closer to the last century is the way to go towards the future. That might have costed China, Americans are realising now also the big mistake which Kissinger made. Can you imagine Kissinger made a deal with Mao while Mao was killing millions across China during the cultural revolution? I shake my head when I am reminded of that event. ---> Back to your question, yes, is very different, the CCP system with the Western system. You know why in my opinion? The human mind! Any human being, it does not matter if it's Xi or the Dalai Lama, if you give him power, unlimited power, it corrupts the mind and eventually leads to madness in my view. Ceausescu, I was reading some reports with GoogleTranslate, he was loved in the 70's in Romania, he used to go out to the fields and talk to the workers, he even was working with them. People loved him the way Xi is loved now in China. But what happened? Power got to him, it did not happen right away, but slowly, and then eventually he became insane starving his own people, killing his own people. This is why the West will make it, and systems like the CCP, if Xi does not relinquish power -> will fall. The Western world penalises extremism, is true once in a while snakes use democracy to get to power, but most of it is a game of yo-yo to not allow only one party/one human unlimited power. In Beijing there is no yoyo motion, Xi is the yoyo itself. Demonstration of Recent Yo-Yo in the United States: -> Bush Sr. <- Clinton -> Bush Jr. <- Obama -> Trump <- Biden -> maybe DeSantis? <- ? and so on. ---> A quick reminder for people that don't know Xi changed the rules so he can be Emperor for life. Edited January 11 by Contrarian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted January 11 Author Report Share Posted January 11 (edited) Quote Any specific suggestion on how to improve our Canadian system or you are just pointing out a flaw for today? Before answering the question, I have to answer my question in the first post first: Quote So where were these people in the first 6 or 7 hours? I guess those doctors were sitting in cafeteria and posting on an internet forum called Re:Politics: Doctor1 posts: "Iran needs more democracy..." Doctor2 posts: "China needs more freedom...." Army Guy (a military doctor) posts: "Russia needs to buy drones from China..." Real Army Guy here: No way. I know Russia needs drones, even Sleepy Joe knows. But why should I concern things which Putin is supposed to concern instead of concerning what Canadian military needs? This is why I like army guys--they used to go straight to the point-----When asking others how to improve Canadian medical care system, should you ask yourself If you have ever spent a minute considering how to improve the system in the first place? Now lets back to the topic and start with the easiest one: I think the system need to put someone with higher authority and professional training working with the triage nurse together. What is a triage nurse? There is an example: LOL, I apologize to all triage nurses here, and all doctors either. I'm sure you were all doing more important things than sitting in cafeteria posting nonsense on internet. But essentially, a triage nurse's job is just like what the clip of film Idiocracy shows: Quote Triage nursing involves many job responsibilities that make the role diverse and important. Some of the responsibilities of triage medical professionals include: Performing assessments on incoming patients to evaluate their symptoms so they can triage them appropriately Working with patients and families who are in the waiting room Giving emergency treatment whenever necessary Communicating to patients and families the course of action Sorting patients into priority groups according to hospital triage guidelines Transporting patients to their treatment area Working with doctors and other registered nurses to communicate the status of patients and treat as needed "according to hospital triage guidelines"----this is the problem caused the tragedy in the first place. Anyone who has experience with any kind of guidelines knows: there always be a flaw in a guideline, something rare happens so the guideline creators neglect to include in. Just like the Idiocracy video clip shows. This is why in China, hospitals always use a doctor to sort emergency patients instead of a nurse. Edited January 11 by xul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Contrarian Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 (edited) 43 minutes ago, xul said: Now lets back to the topic and start with the easiest one: I think the system need to put someone with higher authority and professional training working with the triage nurse together. ---> The first part of the above message (which I removed so I don't market it 😄) is just you agreeing with populistic messages about how we should just mind our own garden and don't worry about the global picture. Is an isolationalist point of view also shared by one Donald Trump which I suspect you might be a fan of. Great, this is why we live in democracy, you can pick your man and run with him, is not like in Xi's China. ---> The second part of the message, I agree with you, it makes perfect sense how someone like a doctor would be able to detect cases such as this and prevent tragedies. Not even sure why this is not done here, I was reading about a doctor shortage, family doctors, probably not related but I wonder if lack of doctors is what is preventing implementing this specific system. As for the ending of the message, yes, great that China has this system, that does not mean your health system is better than the Canadian system. Many sources, including this one, show different ranks: https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/best-healthcare-in-the-world That there are flaws which lead to tragedies, of course, there are issues in every system which need improvement. This is why we have politicians to put pressure for change or else we vote them out. Edited January 11 by Contrarian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
500channelsurfer Posted January 15 Report Share Posted January 15 The health care system is broken because the education system is broken. The only long-term solution is to expand the number of educational opportunities to become doctors and nurses. In the 1990s governments cut back on education spots for doctor and nurse education as a short-term measure to ease budgets. Canada should not have to rely on immigrants who are already trained doctors and nurses because our systems make it difficult for them to get their credentials approved, because foreign training always requires some level of adaptation to Canada, and because Canada has a pool of would-be qualified Canadian young people perfectly capable of becoming doctors and nurses if the educational opportunities were there and the professions were attractive. The understaffing in our health care system is driving young Canadians who might have chosen to become a doctor or a nurse to pursue other careers like lawyer or engineer, because the working conditions in health care are terrible. No other field enforces mandatory overtime on their workers after six years, or whatever it is now, university education. So if the government would fund more medical schools and positions, Canadians would see that working conditions in the medical field will improve long-term and more people will have the chance and opportunity to choose a medical career while career prospects are improving. In the meantime, hiring foreign workers and optimizing the systems that we have will have to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 5 hours ago, 500channelsurfer said: The health care system is broken because the education system is broken. The only long-term solution is to expand the number of educational opportunities to become doctors and nurses. In the 1990s governments cut back on education spots for doctor and nurse education as a short-term measure to ease budgets. This is true, my own GP was a victim of those cuts and went to Ireland to finish his training. Thankfully he came back to Canada. Right now, two of his kids are in Ireland training to become MD's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted January 16 Report Share Posted January 16 7 hours ago, 500channelsurfer said: Canada should not have to rely on immigrants who are already trained doctors and nurses because our systems make it difficult for them to get their credentials approved, because foreign training always requires some level of adaptation to Canada, There's that but there's also the moral and ethical argument against recruitment of highly trained immigrants from countries - many who already probably need experts more than us. I mean I get why we would and I've argued for it myself when I'm in a darker mood. Quote and because Canada has a pool of would-be qualified Canadian young people perfectly capable of becoming doctors and nurses if the educational opportunities were there and the professions were attractive. Aging populations are now the fastest age specific demographic on the planet so I really have to wonder if our pool is deep enough to meet the call for health workers and all the other professions that need new employees to replace their retiring one's. Seems there's a big crunch coming - maybe that's why we need billions of dollars worth of war-planes. Quote World’s older population grows dramatically The world’s older population continues to grow at an unprecedented rate. Today, 8.5 percent of people worldwide (617 million) are aged 65 and over. According to a new report, “An Aging World: 2015(link is external),” this percentage is projected to jump to nearly 17 percent of the world’s population by 2050 (1.6 billion). https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/worlds-older-population-grows-dramatically Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted January 16 Author Report Share Posted January 16 (edited) Since not every patient going to a ER has life-threatening sickness, I think the other way is to create a transit clinic category between hospital's ER and family doctor. It should be combined with pharmacy and laboratory, and open 24/7, so some patients can be diverted from ER. There should be some kinds of info share mechanism between the new institutes and ERs so if there is a patient they can't handle, the patient can be directly sent to a ER and bypass the triage system of the ER. This kind of institutes can be considered an enhanced walk-in clinic or simplified Hospital without inpatient department. Government can encourage private investors investing on this kind of clinic by offering partial funding or tax breaking, etc. The true disgrace of the system isn't because it fail to someone, but because after all these years, nobody who has the power even wants to find a way to mend the system. Edited January 16 by xul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted January 16 Author Report Share Posted January 16 On 1/11/2023 at 7:29 AM, Contrarian said: isolationalist If someone from a poor third world country comes to Canada and finds a job, maybe the pay isn't good but he still saves money for donating to his home country's poor people, his action should be considered honorable. But if his won kids is starving but he still does such charity things, his action is no longer honorable but disgraceful, because as a father, his main duty is to feed his own kids in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted January 18 Report Share Posted January 18 On 1/10/2023 at 9:29 PM, xul said: Canada to purchase U.S. missile defense system for Ukraine? Canadian governments have no money to hire more doctors in hospitals to save their citizens' lives, but has money to buy missiles from US for Ukraine? US, UK, France and Germany donate weapons because they are major arm producers in the world. Why doesn't Canada government just donate some made-in-Canada logs for Ukrainian to build their bunkers? I'm sure bunkers are just as good as SAMs on saving lives from enemy air raid. Firstly, you are aware the health care system is Provincial? Canada does not hire doctors, the provinces do. Canada or the provinces cannot hire doctors any faster than the schools produce them and every doctor coming from a school is hired. What Canada does internationally is not a provincial matter nor a provincial expenditure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted January 18 Report Share Posted January 18 I would suggest a tragedy like in the OP is the exception and not the rule in Canadian Healthcare. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xul Posted January 21 Author Report Share Posted January 21 On 1/18/2023 at 9:35 AM, ExFlyer said: Firstly, you are aware the health care system is Provincial? Canada does not hire doctors, the provinces do. Canada or the provinces cannot hire doctors any faster than the schools produce them and every doctor coming from a school is hired. Thank you for not mentioning that deans of hospitals hire doctors... If any dean had enough funds but refused to hire more doctor and buy more medical equipment to fixe his ER waiting time problem, it would be his fault. That provinces are responsible for healthcare systems of their territories does mean federal government can not fund them. Trudeau suggests 'positive' news on health-care talks with provinces could come soon As for schools, I bet some third world countries even haven't any medical schools, but they still have hospitals and doctors, haven't they? Schools won't train more students if no one hire them. If a medical accepts 100 candidates from 500 applicants, do you really think there are too much difference between the #100 and the #101 candidates? The only reason that the #101 is declined is because the school anticipate that there isn't any more needs in labor market. Before the war broke out, I bet every student who graduated from Ukrainian military schools was hired by Ukrainian army, but it doesn't meant that they can't train more soldiers and officers when they need to expend their army now. Quote What Canada does internationally is not a provincial matter nor a provincial expenditure. Canada can not exist without its provinces. This is why Trudeau funds provincial health-care system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 8 minutes ago, xul said: Thank you for not mentioning that deans of hospitals hire doctors... If any dean had enough funds but refused to hire more doctor and buy more medical equipment to fixe his ER waiting time problem, it would be his fault. That provinces are responsible for healthcare systems of their territories does mean federal government can not fund them. Trudeau suggests 'positive' news on health-care talks with provinces could come soon As for schools, I bet some third world countries even haven't any medical schools, but they still have hospitals and doctors, haven't they? Schools won't train more students if no one hire them. If a medical accepts 100 candidates from 500 applicants, do you really think there are too much difference between the #100 and the #101 candidates? The only reason that the #101 is declined is because the school anticipate that there isn't any more needs in labor market. Before the war broke out, I bet every student who graduated from Ukrainian military schools was hired by Ukrainian army, but it doesn't meant that they can't train more soldiers and officers when they need to expend their army now. Canada can not exist without its provinces. This is why Trudeau funds provincial health-care system. Not sure what you are trying to say? Who pays doctors in a Canadian Province? Oh yeah, the province. They are public servants. Deans of hospitals? What is that?? Schools fill the seats for students. If 500 apply but there are only 100 seats, that is all they can accept. Medical tuition in Ontario is free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpankyMcFarland Posted January 21 Report Share Posted January 21 (edited) Funding for public health care is mainly provincial, the federal part being in decline for a long time - in other words the federal govt has failed to increase spending as much as the provinces. Quote More than 70% of health care spending is publicly funded through general tax revenues. The provinces and territories generate 78% of the cost, with the federal government providing the rest through the Canada Health Transfer (CHT). This split has been the subject of debate since Medicare was first established. At that time, the federal share was about 35%. In the late 1970s, it dropped to 25%. Today, the Canada Health Transfer stands at about 22%. Quote https://www.cma.ca/news/health-care-funding-canada The article has a few suggestions for change, including a health model based on the CPP. A few things to remember: 1. Many developed countries are experiencing similar problems in their ERs right now. Health systems struggling for years were pushed over the edge with Covid. Quote https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/14/a-ticking-time-bomb-healthcare-under-threat-across-western-europe Quote https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2023/01/21/thousands-protest-hospital-overcrowding-in-demonstrations-around-country/ 2. There are more old people and there are many more things that can be done to keep them alive. 3. Over the past thirty years we didn’t train enough doctors and we certainly didn’t train enough family practitioners. Why be a GP when you can earn a lot more with less hassle in a procedure-based speciality? Doctors under 40 have a more diverse practice, getting into sports medicine, allergy testing etc,, and a different work-life balance. Maternity leave has a bigger impact than it used to because there are more female doctors. Without enough GPs a lot of orphan patients end up inappropriately in the ER. I think we should be looking more to countries with the best outcomes in Western Europe and see if we can apply any of their policies. Australia is also a good model as it has a similarly small, multicultural population spread out over a massive area like ours. Edited January 21 by SpankyMcFarland Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExFlyer Posted February 17 Report Share Posted February 17 On 1/10/2023 at 9:29 PM, xul said: Canada to purchase U.S. missile defense system for Ukraine? Canadian governments have no money to hire more doctors in hospitals to save their citizens' lives, but has money to buy missiles from US for Ukraine? US, UK, France and Germany donate weapons because they are major arm producers in the world. Why doesn't Canada government just donate some made-in-Canada logs for Ukrainian to build their bunkers? I'm sure bunkers are just as good as SAMs on saving lives from enemy air raid. I get what you are saying but.... it is a nonsensical point. Firstly, the feds do not hire doctors. Secondly, every provincial government, local government, health district and hospital is trying to hire doctors but, there are none to be hired or none that want to work where they are being recruited. Thirdly, the same governments are trying to hire health care workers but again, there are no enough applicants. Fourthly, some provinces are offering tuition free health care schooling. So, the fact is that Canada is trying to fulfill its NATO commitments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.