Random crimes in the public transit, another episode, story from the public transit

[Contrarian]

Toronto police have arrested a suspect in connection with two “random attacks” on the subway earlier this week.

Brandonn Sevilla-Zelaya, 25, of Toronto, was arrested on Saturday and has been charged with robbery, assault causing bodily harm and uttering threat.

Police say Sevilla-Zelaya is accused of attacking two passengers on the subway at Kennedy Station.

The first incident happened on Dec. 15, at around 10 p.m., when the suspect allegedly approached a male passenger and began attacking him with unprovoked punches.

Roughly an hour later, the suspect approached a female passenger on the subway again at Kennedy Station, and began attacking her by shaking her, police said. The suspect then allegedly stole her headphones and threatened her.

The charges against Sevilla-Zelaya have not been proven in court.

He is scheduled to appear at Old City Hall Saturday morning.

The incidents follow a number of recent violent acts on the subway system.

Last week, 31-year-old Vanessa Kurpiewska was stabbed to death near High Park Station, and in another incident a Toronto Transit Commission operator was assaulted and robbed at the Long Branch Loop in Etobicoke.

https://www.cp24.com/news/suspect-arrested-after-two-random-attacks-on-toronto-subway-1.6199172

Also in July --> A woman has died nearly a month after being set on fire at Kipling station, also in Toronto. 

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--> I sometimes take the public transit in a major city in Canada, seen my fair share, 1 story in particular was when one gentleman boarded a bus, I was only a few stations away from home, I already could picture myself listening to some jazz but this gentleman decided to join the bus. 

At one point randomly this person decided to take out an object and proceeded to say that he will do harm. The people that were up front jumped like chickens.

I was taught to not move so focused my attention in the phone. Was way on the back. The bus driver did not say a word. The gentleman then proceeded to head out to the street and threaten the initial occupants of the bus. He then proceeded to cross the street. Some passengers returned in the bus. Have no idea if a report was filled. The shocking part is how people were not really talking about what just happened. Just another day.   

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--> Is hard to say what the solutions are. The shelter system is full, the mental hospitals were tried in the past, is the way society is. When the economy is not well, more people live in the public transit out of desperation however that is not an excuse for criminal behaviour. 

What are some solutions? Tougher laws?  More housing?

Edited December 18, 2022 by Contrarian

[RedDog]

Public transit here now amounts to homeless shelters and vagrant hangouts. Police do nothing.

[PIK]

We need mental hospitals to open up again and the power to put people into them.

[Contrarian]

2 hours ago, PIK said:

We need mental hospitals to open up again and the power to put people into them.

My understanding is that in the past Canada went this route and it did not work out this model. Don't have quotes, just from discussions I heard.  

Edited December 18, 2022 by Contrarian

[PIK]

2 hours ago, Contrarian said:

My understanding is that in the past Canada went this route and it did not work out this model. Don't have quotes, just from discussions I heard.  

Well it's worse now.  We just can't leave people on the streets or taking up hosp rooms.  We need a new approach,not give up. Physical and mental health issues need to be looked after and working on a education. And you can't leave or jail time .

Edited December 18, 2022 by PIK

[Contrarian]

1 hour ago, PIK said:

We need a new approach,not give up. 

Agree. A new approach is needed. I heard often this theory that you can't really force people in the mental hospital because is not moral. Ok, I understand where people are coming from but in the same time if a human being ends up in a state which he is a danger to themselves and people around them, there has to be more of long term mandatory programs which focus on mental health. 

What is really in place now?  --> we just have to wait for something to happen, then if one is lucky to make it can hope for change in policy. 

I like the mixed patrols that I was reading about which is at low level risk calls they send a mental health worker in alongside the police officer. Is a step in the right direction however it does not address the long term issue. Sure you defuse a situation, but the same person if is not getting the proper care will be back there in a few days. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by Contrarian

[Contrarian]

Trending now in the news: 

Multiple victims are being treated after a woman allegedly assaulted numerous people on the TTC’s Line 1 Monday morning.

Police say they received a call for an assault from St. Clair Station at approximately 9:24 a.m.

An off-duty police officer was able to detain the suspect until on-duty officers arrived.

Medics are currently attending to the victims, police say.

https://www.cp24.com/news/numerous-people-assaulted-on-ttc-s-line-1-police-1.6200725

[eyeball]

23 hours ago, Contrarian said:

My understanding is that in the past Canada went this route and it did not work out this model. Don't have quotes, just from discussions I heard.  

It would have worked fine if provincial health systems hadn't followed the same example Ottawa sets, inadequate funding.

In the case of mental health there also needs to be more public awareness of the issues surrounding it and especially how fear, stigmatization and of course politics only makes things worse.

[eyeball]

19 hours ago, Contrarian said:

I like the mixed patrols that I was reading about which is at low level risk calls they send a mental health worker in alongside the police officer. Is a step in the right direction however it does not address the long term issue. Sure you defuse a situation, but the same person if is not getting the proper care will be back there in a few days. 

Luckily one of the 6 cops it took to get my son into a psyche ward recognized what was happening when his schizophrenia roared to life. My son could have easily had a far worse outcome right then and there. That was 22 years ago. Today he's making more than his old man producing educational software for autistic kids.  He's one of the lucky ones.

His success in being able to overcome and live with his disease included his mother's determination to be there to help in any way she could, I was there too but I also had a business to run. Fortunately the people caring for him in hospital responded favourably to that.  I think more should be done to give families the opportunity to be involved where it's feasible and appropriate. I'm pretty sure our health system can use all the help it can get too.

Edited December 19, 2022 by eyeball

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

It would have worked fine if provincial health systems hadn't followed the same example Ottawa sets, inadequate funding.

In the case of mental health there also needs to be more public awareness of the issues surrounding it and especially how fear, stigmatization and of course politics only makes things worse.

We had a large mental health institution for 110 years called Riverview out in Coquitlam.   It had up to 4,500 patients in it at one time.  The Social Credit provincial government decided to shut it down in the 1980s and integrate the patients into the communities or refer them to regional care.  However, it doesn't look like they did a very good job.  Actually a poor job of dealing with the patients when they released them or sent them elsewhere.  This may have had something to do with the new Charter of Rights of 1982 or is it a coincidence that this happened about the same time.

Where are the thousands of mentally-ill patents now?  The answer is some are in group homes, and thousands are on the streets like in places like downtown eastside Vancouver or camped in tent cities in parks or in cities like Victoria.  Some may be put up in shelters or low-cost housing, but those with serious mental issues may not be able to be housed because of their record of bad behavior.   There have been daily assaults, and other crimes and they are continually arrested and released by the courts.  The government has done nothing about the situation.  The new NDP premier says he is determined to do something, but he was the attorney general for years and what has he done?  You would think he would have done something concrete to solve the problems in the last five years.  But very little or nothing.

Apparently many think, especially the supreme court judges, that we suddenly became enlightened in 1982 with the new Charter of Rights and don't keep mentally-ill people locked in an institution because it denies them their fundamental rights (to be free).  This was and is a disastrous mistake as has been proven by what has been going on.  These are the same kind of people that also believe in MAID, medically-assisted suicide for almost anyone who wants it.  What we have is a broken and crumbling society with no moral compass.

It is obvious the mentally-ill should not be on the streets which lead to assaults and other crimes.

Riverview Hospital: a brief history | CBC News

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by blackbird

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

It is obvious the mentally-ill should not be on the streets which lead to assaults and other crimes.

It's even more obvious we need tens of billions of dollars to spend on hospitals, housing, hiring mental workers, and of course we need things like guaranteed incomes so people can't fall so far between the cracks when they do fall.  Free good quality narcotics, so there's less need adulterate drugs with far far more dangerous things like fentanyl.  As for housing, it needs to be decent good quality accommodations so people feel good about being there.

Quote

Apparently many think, especially the supreme court judges, that we suddenly became enlightened in 1982 with the new Charter of Rights and don't keep mentally-ill people locked in an institution because it denies them their fundamental rights (to be free).  This was and is a disastrous mistake as has been proven by what has been going on.

I'm definitely one of them.  The disaster was not following up with expenditures on hospitals, mental health workers, housing, income supplements and less dangerous drugs.

I suspect God would prefer going back to the Hell-on-Earth Riverview's of the past but thankfully Jesus would know better what to do. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by eyeball

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

It's even more obvious we need tens of billions of dollars to spend on hospitals, housing, hiring mental workers, and of course we need things like guaranteed incomes so people can't fall so far between the cracks when they do fall.  Free good quality narcotics, so there's less need adulterate drugs with far far more dangerous things like fentanyl.  As for housing, it needs to be decent good quality accommodations so people feel good about being there.

I'm definitely one of them.  The disaster was not following up with expenditures on hospitals, mental health workers, housing, income supplements and less dangerous drugs.

I suspect God would prefer going back to the Hell-on-Earth Riverview's of the past but thankfully Jesus would know better what to do. 

If you provide free luxury housing, free guaranteed income for everyone, and free good-quality drugs for everyone, who would bother going to work to pay for all this?  Where do you think all the billions of dollars would come from when a large segment of the population decides it doesn't make any sense to work any more?  Your idea is flawed from the start.  The simple fact is nothing is free and somebody would have to pay for all you want to give out.  The basic principle is everyone who is capable of working should be working, not living off the state or others.  Those who are incapable due to mental illness should be in an institution.

Who said Riverview was a hell-on-earth?  Seems to me living in a tent in downtown eastside with dirt,  freezing in a cold tent, no food, human excrement all around, used needles, criminals crawling around everywhere shooting up and demanding money for drugs would be the more like a hell.  A mental institution could be run in a way to make it a pleasant place with social activities, entertainment, mental health workers, and warm. What is wrong with that?  That is the most sensible place for the mentally ill.  Mentally ill people are not capable of living on their own in a house or apartment to begin with.

How would giving addicts free quality drugs and allowing them to continue in their addiction help them or anyone else?

Seems to me you are simply trying to be contrary and trying to be provocative.  I think Jesus would prefer to see the mentally-ill in a warm comfortable place than out on the streets doing harm to other people.  Think practical solutions, not just handing everyone everything for nothing, which will never happen.  The money does not exist.

Edited December 19, 2022 by blackbird

[eyeball]

14 minutes ago, blackbird said:

If you provide free luxury housing,

Did I say luxury?  Why do you feel the need to change the context here?  Perhaps by luxury you meant refurbished 2nd hand shopping carts or something.

Quote

Seems to me you are simply trying to be contrary and trying to be provocative.  I think Jesus would prefer to see the mentally-ill in a warm comfortable place than out on the streets doing harm to other people. 

I simply know that religion has no business being anywhere near mentally ill people. 

Quote

Think practical solutions, not just handing everyone everything for nothing, which will never happen.  The money does not exist.

What are you talking about, there's thin air circulating all around us.

[Contrarian]

I think a few liberal cities in the US tried this approach, San Francisco had a hotel program which housing was provided for people that could not afford it. It did not work. It was anarchy.

Why? Because in my opinion money, housing needs to be associated with value.

People can't value something if no work is put into it. As a side note this is why a lot of lottery winners end up losing it all. No value and no purpose.

I am all for society giving help for people that need that extra support due to past issues but in my view it has to be connected with some sort of effort, even volunteering.

The are people that can't work is true due to the issues that they have, but how can a doctor determine this if one refuses to seek medical help? Is it then the right thing to force the human being in front of a medical professional for an examination if the human being starts exhibiting anti-social behaviour?

Clearly only jail is not helping the long term problem.

Edited December 19, 2022 by Contrarian

[eyeball]

18 minutes ago, Contrarian said:

I think a few liberal cities in the US tried this approach, San Francisco had a hotel program which housing was provided for people that could not afford it. It did not work. It was anarchy.

Why? Because in my opinion money, housing needs to be associated with value.

Exactly. A crappy old fleabag hotel is not housing.

Governments typically approach health care on the cheap and so that plus the stigmatization and other screwy, usually religious ideas about morality, is why anarchy reigns supreme.

[blackbird]

37 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Exactly. A crappy old fleabag hotel is not housing.

Governments typically approach health care on the cheap and so that plus the stigmatization and other screwy, usually religious ideas about morality, is why anarchy reigns supreme.

You have some kind of wrong-headed notion that Biblical Christianity is associated with anarchy when the complete opposite is true.

quote

   Christianity and society

Bible based Christianity and society – We emphasize the term ‘biblical Christianity,’ as opposed to the organized hierarchical church, because the two have different goals and are based on a different set of beliefs. Biblically based Christianity promotes an organized society, based in the individual that encourages Christians to:

Work and provide for their family (2 Thessalonians 3:10-12)

Obey the government and pay their taxes (Romans 13:1-7)

Maintain a good reputation in their work (1 Timothy 3:7)

Be non-violent (1 Timothy 3:2)

Raise responsible children (1 Timothy 3:4-5),

Be honest (Ephesians 5:9)

Do good to all men (Galatians 6:10)

Biblical Christianity’s effect on society – These biblical exhortations to individual Christians work then to profit society on two broad levels; first, at the governmental level, and second, in the local and national societal levels.

Local communities and governments – These institutions typically benefit from biblical Christianity working at the individual and church levels because they promote a community and organizations that help each other, assist the poor, benefit the general wellbeing of the community and support the local government.

Federal government – The national government benefits from a society based in biblical Christianity because the Bible promotes honest, hardworking individuals who minimize the need for government action to maintain order. Christianity helps build a population of individuals with strong character to serve in the bureaucracy, work hard to progress the economy, be responsible for family and friends, serve in the armed forces and bureaucracy and promote order in society.

unquote

Christianity and Society - Teleios, Inc. (teleiosresearch.com)

 

[Nationalist]

8 hours ago, Contrarian said:

Trending now in the news: 

Multiple victims are being treated after a woman allegedly assaulted numerous people on the TTC’s Line 1 Monday morning.

Police say they received a call for an assault from St. Clair Station at approximately 9:24 a.m.

An off-duty police officer was able to detain the suspect until on-duty officers arrived.

Medics are currently attending to the victims, police say.

https://www.cp24.com/news/numerous-people-assaulted-on-ttc-s-line-1-police-1.6200725

To this and your previous post.

Do you put some unarmed psychiatrist with cops? That sounds like an additional liability for the cops.

I would re-open any old hospitals that are salvageable, build a few new ones, empower the police to have a person committed...with controls like reviews...and make the city safe for citizens/victims, instead of worrying about the warped reality that is worrying about the perpetrators. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Nationalist

[blackbird]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Exactly. A crappy old fleabag hotel is not housing.

Governments typically approach health care on the cheap and so that plus the stigmatization and other screwy, usually religious ideas about morality, is why anarchy reigns supreme.

Life is complex.   Theological - biblical truth cannot be separated from politics, society, and social issues.  Anarchy is exactly what no thinking or normal person wants.  There are many false religions in the world, as for example Sharia Law which denies basic freedoms.  There is one revelation from God which is the truth.  Mankind is not left without a moral compass or guidepost, but most are not aware of it or ignore it.  You may want to listen to some sermons on this subject.  There is one sermon which I am listening to at the moment which should shed some light on the connection of politics and biblical truth.  So far it seems to be very informative and interesting.  He goes into the subject of separation of church and state as well.  He is speaking from an American perspective and American government but the basic principles are universal.  I disagree with the last seven minutes.  

Politics, Government, and Biblical Authority: Part 1 | SermonAudio

Edited December 20, 2022 by blackbird

[PIK]

2 hours ago, eyeball said:

Exactly. A crappy old fleabag hotel is not housing.

Governments typically approach health care on the cheap and so that plus the stigmatization and other screwy, usually religious ideas about morality, is why anarchy reigns supreme.

I lived in a small town motel for 4 months due to the flood of 2019 that came in my front door. You are so right about the mentally ill being drop in to these places. I should have had a diary and wrote things down.

[blackbird]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

I simply know that religion has no business being anywhere near mentally ill people. 

You're not making any sense.  The Union Gospel Mission, the Salvation Army are religion-based organization and they help a lot of people who are down and out and living on the streets.  There are lots of religion-based organizations doing charity work to help those in need.

[eyeball]

19 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You're not making any sense.  The Union Gospel Mission, the Salvation Army are religion-based organization and they help a lot of people who are down and out and living on the streets.  There are lots of religion-based organizations doing charity work to help those in need.

There are girl guides selling cookies at the mall, go set up shop there.  Governments are all to happy to boost the importance of charity too because it helps takes them off the hook and it's truly a fart in a windstorm.

Above all else though I think the more horrific religious beliefs about death, guilt and being watched and judged and so on are toxic to someone who's already in a disturbed psychotic state.

Edited December 20, 2022 by eyeball

[Contrarian]

3 hours ago, blackbird said:

Work and provide for their family (2 Thessalonians 3:10-12)

Obey the government and pay their taxes (Romans 13:1-7)

Maintain a good reputation in their work (1 Timothy 3:7)

Be non-violent (1 Timothy 3:2)

Raise responsible children (1 Timothy 3:4-5),

Be honest (Ephesians 5:9)

Do good to all men (Galatians 6:10)

Biblical Christianity’s effect on society – These biblical exhortations to individual Christians work then to profit society on two broad levels; first, at the governmental level, and second, in the local and national societal levels.

Local communities and governments – These institutions typically benefit from biblical Christianity working at the individual and church levels because they promote a community and organizations that help each other, assist the poor, benefit the general wellbeing of the community and support the local government.

Federal government – The national government benefits from a society based in biblical Christianity because the Bible promotes honest, hardworking individuals who minimize the need for government action to maintain order. Christianity helps build a population of individuals with strong character to serve in the bureaucracy, work hard to progress the economy, be responsible for family and friends, serve in the armed forces and bureaucracy and promote order in society.

unquote

Christianity and Society - Teleios, Inc. (teleiosresearch.com)

 

So what is the bottom line? If everyone falls into line according to the old Biblical teachings there will no crime and a perfect society? This is what Stalin used to say: "There is no crime in communism". They too thought they found the perfect society via a red book as I have mentioned previously. You know my opinions. 

I agree with you that throwing money won't fix the problem though especially with the mental hospitals being closed, so no long term solution for support prior to one resuming society which makes it very likely the person will re-offend.  

Maybe a solution would be that if one's behaviour is such that jail did not help the first time, next time you won't do 1 year in prison, but 1 year with the doctor telling you what to do until a healthy habit starts developing. 

Are there any lawyers or someone which is against the opening of mental hospitals? Why not? What went wrong the first time? They say to ask when one wants perspective. 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Contrarian

[blackbird]

9 hours ago, eyeball said:

There are girl guides selling cookies at the mall, go set up shop there.  Governments are all to happy to boost the importance of charity too because it helps takes them off the hook and it's truly a fart in a windstorm.

Above all else though I think the more horrific religious beliefs about death, guilt and being watched and judged and so on are toxic to someone who's already in a disturbed psychotic state.

Better to give biblical counsel to someone in a troubled or disturbed state, who is willing to seek spiritual help and listen, than to leave them in their misery and danger of worse things happening.  If people raised their children in the nurture and admonition of the Lord as the Bible says they should, there might not be so many mentally ill people, drug addicts, criminals, and troubled youth and adults in the world.  If you think biblical truth are "horrific religious beliefs" then you have a problem, not the people who believe the biblical truth.

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, blackbird said:

If you think biblical truth are "horrific religious beliefs" then you have a problem, not the people who believe the biblical truth.

So you'd be inclined to tell a psychotic he better get right by God or risk burning in hell for eternity.  Why not prescribe them LSD while you're at it?

[blackbird]

7 minutes ago, eyeball said:

So you'd be inclined to tell a psychotic he better get right by God or risk burning in hell for eternity.  Why not prescribe them LSD while you're at it?

No.  Every person and psychotic disorder is different and it depends on what the mental problem of the person is.  What one says, is hypothetical.   He may need specialized medical/health care depending on what the problem is.  Listening is sometimes the best approach.  Some people are not capable of listening to anything.   Don't assume Biblical truth can be presented to everyone in the same way.  A mentally ill person is in a different space.  However, that type of person is not as common as you seem to think.  Most people are in between or different shades of grey.