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Canada: The Land of Genocide


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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. None of this addresses how to fix the residue from these past events.  Somebody could tax things like... oh the Hudsons Bay Company, CP Rail, the Banks and so on... to provide redress.  Nobody is asking you to do that here, but you don't even want to talk about that.  You are literally saying "not my fault". Well, you live in the country where there's a problem so the first step is to look at how we got here IMO.

Please don't tell me what I do and do not want to talk about unless I've said it. Have I ever said "I don't want to talk about it"? Don't you think my posting on this indicates I DO, in fact want to talk about it?

Here's what I don't want to talk about: I don't want to talk about paying endless amounts of money to indigenous people for an endless amount of time while they waste their lives away on isolated reserves without jobs or any other economic sustenance other than handouts from government.

You don't 'fix' the residue of past troubles by taxing me to pay people to do nothing. The only path to 'fixing' the residue of the past is finding a way to incorporate/integrate natives into the greater community of Canada. Jesus Christ, if people from Uganda to Uzbekistan, from Bangladesh to Bolivia can come here, find out how to survive, learn our language and customs someone tell me why natives can't. What is so special about their 'culture' that it's more important to preserve that than letting them have actual lives with purpose, meaning and responsibilities?

How many centuries do you think we ought to keep natives on reserves? Will another hundred years do it? Two hundred? Five hundred? How much longer are they to be treated like some kind of hothouse flowers that can't survive anywhere but in special soil constantly watered with billions of cash dollars?

Edited by I am Groot
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3 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Trudeau's time in office is marked by an obsession with income redistribution. Even his climate change initiative is more about income redistribution than climate. I'm not saying he's very GOOD at it, but that seems to be his focus.

Reversed and shrank. This is from your favorite politician but he quotes (with a link) the PBO report and other statistics.

https://ottawacitizen.com/opinion/columnists/poilievre-harper-not-trudeau-sr-actually-reduced-poverty

Hmmm.

5cd709812100003500c93771.jpeg?ops=scalefit_720_noupscale

https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/canadas-income-inequality-surged-under-harper-analysis_n_16869570

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Why in Christ's name would I suggest either of those two were progressives?

Righties who don't swing both ways would usually write them off as lefties because they're commies.  The amount of power doled out to people by a dictator is typically very conservative and anything but progressive.

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The only power Trudeau cares about is his. In pursuit of that he has been doing whatever he thinks will endear himself to the Left, be it by redistributing income, pretending to care about climate change or drag queens, or all his phony photo ops suggesting he's a 'regular guy'.

I would point to the way Trudeau handled or was handled by SNC Lavalin as evidence of right-wing proclivity.  Trump stumps for the 'regular guy' too, they all do.

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So what? If conservatives couldn't support it they coulda shoulda put a stop to them.  They've had plenty of opportunities to do so over the last 150 years or so.

Assigning liability to a political leaning won't work any more than assigning it to individuals, the scope of the cost can only be borne by institutions meaning us.  I would hope that the cost of settlements following reconciliation would spur all of us to demand more robust systems of accountability so that we're not left in such costly lurches in the future.  Wait until people start suing governments on the grounds they're liable for damages done when dragging their feet on climate change initiatives if it can be shown this foot-dragging increased the damage.   Do you think ideology will get anyone off the hook?

Instead of the great emphasis placed on the division between right and left I'd much prefer we place that emphasis on the gulf between governed and governments.

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16 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Please don't tell me what I do and do not want to talk about unless I've said it. Have I ever said "I don't want to talk about it"? Don't you think my posting on this indicates I DO, in fact want to talk about it?

Here's what I don't want to talk about: I don't want to talk about paying endless amounts of money to indigenous people for an endless amount of time while they waste their lives away on isolated reserves without jobs or any other economic sustenance other than handouts from government.

Then negotiate for that.

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You don't 'fix' the residue of past troubles by taxing me to pay people to do nothing. The only path to 'fixing' the residue of the past is finding a way to incorporate/integrate natives into the greater community of Canada. Jesus Christ, if people from Uganda to Uzbekistan, from Bangladesh to Bolivia can come here, find out how to survive, learn our language and customs someone tell me why natives can't. What is so special about their 'culture' that it's more important to preserve that than letting them have actual lives with purpose, meaning and responsibilities?

They can just fine when they're in possession of a modern treaty.

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How many centuries do you think we ought to keep natives on reserves? Will another hundred years do it? Two hundred? Five hundred? How much longer are they to be treated like some kind of hothouse flowers that can't survive anywhere but in special soil constantly watered with billions of cash dollars?

I lived half a mile up the road from a reserve that was on Crown land for some 30 years. We've come to regard it as a village that's on First Nation Territory for 11 years or so now.  Exceptions for GST/PST (on purchases anywhere) ended in 2019, the Nations will start collecting land taxes from home owners in the village and Territory in 2024, the same year Ottawa starts collecting tax on income earned by First Nations on their Territory.

But in answer to your question (how long) I suspect it will still take a couple generations where modern treaties still don't exist.

And remember, you probably shouldn't say it can't be done when people are actually doing it.

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1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

1. Please don't tell me what I do and do not want to talk about unless I've said it. Have I ever said "I don't want to talk about it"? Don't you think my posting on this indicates I DO, in fact want to talk about it?

2. The only path to 'fixing' the residue of the past is finding a way to incorporate/integrate natives into the greater community of Canada.

3. What is so special about their 'culture' that it's more important to preserve that than letting them have actual lives with purpose, meaning and responsibilities?

4. How many centuries do you think we ought to keep natives on reserves? Will another hundred years do it? Two hundred? Five hundred? How much longer are they to be treated like some kind of hothouse flowers that can't survive anywhere but in special soil constantly watered with billions of cash dollars?

1.  I apologize - this had a sense of finality about it: ". I feel like I'm not the least bit responsible for past injustices."

2. I'm sure they'll tell you that was the goal of residential schools.  What would be the difference this time, honest question ?

3. Well, comparing cultures do you think that the European one offers purpose and meaning ?  Responsibilities it does offer if you mean paying bills.  I don't think that utter despair is the "culture" of first nations people, but that comes from the collision with European cultures.  Maybe we could ask them ?

4. I have a lot of problems with the reserve system but I have never seen a plan for removing them that isn't centred on cost reduction.

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3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. None of this addresses how to fix the residue from these past events.  Somebody could tax things like... oh the Hudsons Bay Company, CP Rail, the Banks and so on... to provide redress.  Nobody is asking you to do that here, but you don't even want to talk about that.  You are literally saying "not my fault". Well, you live in the country where there's a problem so the first step is to look at how we got here IMO.

I think he has at least a kernel of a point.  It wasn't his fault.  It probably wasn't his parents' fault, or his grandparent's faults either.  The pre-Columbian First Nations were enslaving and exterminating each other for millennia before the first settlers ever came, so it was hardly the agrarian utopia that some folk seem to think.  More competitive cultures supplanting and overtaking less competitive ones has been the way of the world since pre-recorded history.  The difference here is that Europeans were far better organized and developed and operated at far greater scale than anything seen before in the Americas.  The other difference is our capacity for self-shame and guilt for this.  

While we should certainly be acknowledging things like residential schools and reconciling for that (particularly considering some of these folk are still alive, or their direct/immediate descendants are), we're not going to fix much of anything dredging up centuries-old grievances from bygone days with ways of life (both aboriginal and colonial) that no longer exist.  Practical solutions for impoverished aboriginal communities are not going to come out of the Indian Act, the reserve system or reparations/treaty settlements.  

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15 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

1. I think he has at least a kernel of a point.  It wasn't his fault.  It probably wasn't his parents' fault, or his grandparent's faults either.  The pre-Columbian First Nations were enslaving and exterminating each other for millennia before the first settlers ever came, so it was hardly the agrarian utopia that some folk seem to think.  More competitive cultures supplanting and overtaking less competitive ones has been the way of the world since pre-recorded history. 

2. The difference here is that Europeans were far better organized and developed and operated at far greater scale than anything seen before in the Americas.  The other difference is our capacity for self-shame and guilt for this.  

3. While we should certainly be acknowledging things like residential schools and reconciling for that (particularly considering some of these folk are still alive, or their direct/immediate descendants are), we're not going to fix much of anything dredging up centuries-old grievances from bygone days with ways of life (both aboriginal and colonial) that no longer exist. 

4. Practical solutions for impoverished aboriginal communities are not going to come out of the Indian Act, the reserve system or reparations/treaty settlements.  

1. Acknowledged.
2. Any room in there to acknowledge superior weaponry?  I'm thinking that reason is in the mix somewhere.
3. I like that you said 'fix'.  If we were to suppress all use of shame-inducing terms and wringing of crying cloths but committed to fixing things I would be fine with that.
4. I like that you said 'fix'.

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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

1.  I apologize - this had a sense of finality about it: ". I feel like I'm not the least bit responsible for past injustices."

I, personally, am not. That does not mean Canada as an entity is not, however much I resent my being asked to pay for things people did before I or my parents arrived. I mean, when the UK and Canada were mistreating natives here my people were being mistreated just about as much if not worse back home. Never got any restitution for that either.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. I'm sure they'll tell you that was the goal of residential schools.  What would be the difference this time, honest question ?

It was the goal of residential schools. And many people who advocated it did so for laudable motives. They weren't the native haters but the progressives of their time. That doesn't mean they didn't do things with a heavy hand, or get prior agreement for everything or were terribly sophisticated in what they did. But let me ask you, would the story of residential schools be as bleak if they had been much more carefully supervised so that there wasn't mistreatment, and if the deaths by disease had been as negligible then as now?

The intent HAS to be to integrate people into the community, fast or slow, natives or immigrants Otherwise you don't have a nation and you're buying future trouble, quite possibly violent trouble. The efforts at 'reconciliation' to date appear to have done the opposite, and instilled nothing but a sense of victimhood and further resentment in the native community.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. Well, comparing cultures do you think that the European one offers purpose and meaning ?  Responsibilities it does offer if you mean paying bills.  I don't think that utter despair is the "culture" of first nations people, but that comes from the collision with European cultures.  Maybe we could ask them ?

I have issues aplenty with our own culture. It's far from perfect. But the way to modify/adjust it is a separate question to the necessity of integrating everyone here into something like a sense of shared identity. I am not commenting on the worthiness of native cultures, by the way. But if people from around the world can come here and not entirely lose their culture over generations, yet still integrate (think Irish, Ukrainians, Italians etc.) then so can natives.

BUT... everywhere around the world where people are separated from the whole, have no work to speak of, and simply exist on government handouts the culture becomes bleak, with no purpose in life but sex and drinking. People need a reason to get up in the morning. Doing nothing but passing time wears on your soul.

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

4. I have a lot of problems with the reserve system but I have never seen a plan for removing them that isn't centred on cost reduction.

Well, obviously the natives have to eventually pick up their feet and start sharing the load with the rest of us. So yes, one of the goals is eventual cost reduction. But to start with (probably for a period of some decades) you'd see increased costs. Short term pain for long term gain, so to speak.

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12 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

1. I resent my being asked to pay for things people did before I or my parents arrived 

2. It was the goal of residential schools. And many people who advocated it did so for laudable motives. They weren't the native haters but the progressives of their time. That doesn't mean they didn't do things with a heavy hand, or get prior agreement for everything or were terribly sophisticated in what they did. But let me ask you, would the story of residential schools be as bleak if they had been much more carefully supervised so that there wasn't mistreatment, and if the deaths by disease had been as negligible then as now?

3. The intent HAS to be to integrate people into the community, fast or slow, natives or immigrants Otherwise you don't have a nation and you're buying future trouble, quite possibly violent trouble. The efforts at 'reconciliation' to date appear to have done the opposite, and instilled nothing but a sense of victimhood and further resentment in the native community.

4. I have issues aplenty with our own culture. It's far from perfect. But the way to modify/adjust it is a separate question to the necessity of integrating everyone here into something like a sense of shared identity.

5. I am not commenting on the worthiness of native cultures, by the way. But if people from around the world can come here and not entirely lose their culture over generations, yet still integrate (think Irish, Ukrainians, Italians etc.) then so can natives.

6. BUT... everywhere around the world where people are separated from the whole, have no work to speak of, and simply exist on government handouts the culture becomes bleak, with no purpose in life but sex and drinking. People need a reason to get up in the morning. Doing nothing but passing time wears on your soul.

7. Well, obviously the natives have to eventually pick up their feet and start sharing the load with the rest of us. So yes, one of the goals is eventual cost reduction. But to start with (probably for a period of some decades) you'd see increased costs. Short term pain for long term gain, so to speak.

1. I hear you.  I hate paying for mine tailings, knowing that the grandkids of the folks who owned the mine are cruising past me in Porches.
2. My answer: probably not, no.  What is your answer to what I asked ?
3. You are speaking past the part where they consider themselves to be a separate nation and that we have made peace with nations within Canada.  Harper himself accommodated this concept, with Quebec.  You need to explain how you're going to do this differently this time, still.
4. You will never get shared identity but you can hope for shared values.
5. I would say that the ones I know have entirely integrated, but we can just differ on that.
6. 7. Yes, so you are talking about cost cutting, which to me is always at odds with making real change.  You have to pick one priority.  I think reduced costs can result from a true reconciliation but why wouldn't they suspect someone who shows up with that agenda ?  You would too.

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8 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

There is no country on Earth where humans don’t live somewhat at the expense of certain species and with environmental impacts.  That’s called the Darwinian struggle to survive and humans are at the top of the food chain.  You don’t want to be further down that chain unless you’re suicidal.

Highly doubtful.  You go unarmed to any wild place and just about every wild animal is going to be stronger than you.

Then you have viruses that although invisible, may turn out to be stronger than you too.

And how about us within our own society.  There is a whole new artificial ecosystem there too.  Generally, the more money you have the higher up the "food chain" you are supposed to be.

But me thinks, the laws of nature still trump all else.

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15 hours ago, cougar said:

Don't know what is wrong with the narrative.

It is a land of genocide.

First against the natives.

Then against wildlife

Then against trees - the forests

Then against those less fortunate who are pushed down and out on the streets.

There is always discrimination, exploitation, oppression and destruction.  This is how our system works.

 

Thats the history of most nations, genocide, war, most people that fled to here were fleeing starvation, war, genocide of all sorts, and yes, we will sell off our resources until there is none, greed runs this country, and always will, adapt or move on. 

But you sir, you chose to come here, not like we have hiding any of our history it's all out there in black and white for you to read, you could have done a little research, and yet you came anyways, wanting to share of the great Canadian pie, you've been here a while so now you think you have earned the right to whine about the past, and yet you still take advantage of all our past has given us to date.  

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2 hours ago, Army Guy said:

..........you could have done a little research, and yet you came anyways, wanting to share of the great Canadian pie, you've been here a while so now you think you have earned the right to whine about the past, and yet you still take advantage of all our past has given us to date.  

I did.   Researched the mountains of BC and other places.  It all seemed scarcely populated and I thought, must be better than Scotland.   

But that was a big lie - people were already everywhere, like maggots on a corpse.

Never thought of earning a right to wine.  I just express my disappointment with the negative aspects of our society

As for the "share of the pie", I did not come to take a share.  I came to explore and collect memories.  Still, since I have been here for some time, I cannot help but notice how messed up the whole system is and how I am supposed to be a slave for life over a tiny bit of land and a small moldy wooden structure, be happy with a non existing culture and non existing quality of life, but be shown the door out every time I complain, or be reminded of some nation at war or some destitute nation in central Africa, and how much better my life is in Canada.

So, I do not care about your past at all.   I am just saying what I think.  And this is why I still come here, because I can say what I think - wrong or right.

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39 minutes ago, cougar said:

I did.   Researched the mountains of BC and other places.  It all seemed scarcely populated and I thought, must be better than Scotland.   

But that was a big lie - people were already everywhere, like maggots on a corpse.

Never thought of earning a right to wine.  I just express my disappointment with the negative aspects of our society

As for the "share of the pie", I did not come to take a share.  I came to explore and collect memories.  Still, since I have been here for some time, I cannot help but notice how messed up the whole system is and how I am supposed to be a slave for life over a tiny bit of land and a small moldy wooden structure, be happy with a non existing culture and non existing quality of life, but be shown the door out every time I complain, or be reminded of some nation at war or some destitute nation in central Africa, and how much better my life is in Canada.

So, I do not care about your past at all.   I am just saying what I think.  And this is why I still come here, because I can say what I think - wrong or right.

Hey you chose to come here, and what's great about this nation is you can choose to leave it whenever you want if your not happy. So, no you did not earn the right to whine, want to whine let's talk about your research it seems to suck...It is not like it is a big secret. Canadians like to point fingers at each other, and our neighbor to the south it's our national sport. In this case you f***ed up. 

Nobody is showing you the door, it's always open if you want out, if not welcome to the suck this is Canada. Better than most, but not all. 

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1 minute ago, Army Guy said:

Hey you chose to come here, and what's great about this nation is you can choose to leave it whenever you want

 

Yep, for now.

Looking at how things have been going under Trudeau, I wouldn't be surprised if all of a sudden we have mandatory military service, compulsory recruitment of soldiers to be sent to where the US needs them and, if you do not want to join - a one way ticket to Guantanamo. 

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3 minutes ago, cougar said:

Yep, for now.

Looking at how things have been going under Trudeau, I wouldn't be surprised if all of a sudden we have mandatory military service, compulsory recruitment of soldiers to be sent to where the US needs them and, if you do not want to join - a one way ticket to Guantanamo. 

Justin and the majority of Canadians really don't care that much for the military, it scares them for some reason, so no worries about the liberals bringing any such stuff in...

Now the conservatives maybe they have a plan to round up all the left and will need extra people to help with that.  put them on huge boats and send them to north Korea and China as cheap labor, it's called their new climate change plan, less leftist Canadians less carbon output, it's a win win for everyone, and we still get cheap shi* made in China, and the liberals get reeducated, and we finally meet our climate goals. 

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1 minute ago, Army Guy said:

Now the conservatives maybe they have a plan to round up all the left and will need extra people to help with that.  put them on huge boats and send them to north Korea and China as cheap labor, it's called their new climate change plan, less leftist Canadians less carbon output, it's a win win for everyone, and we still get cheap shi* made in China, and the liberals get reeducated, and we finally meet our climate goals. 

Can't believe it.  ?  You say they will send all liberals to China and North Korea?  Then they will have to replace them with an equal number of Chinese and Koreans to keep the Canadian economy going.     Before we know it, we will look so much like China or Korea, nobody will be able to tell the difference.

I am starting to think, I just have to keep going west........into Kamchatka.     There are still enough grizzlies and steelhead there and probably a bunch of pretty Russian women interested to meet a cosmopolitan.  ?

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8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. Any room in there to acknowledge superior weaponry?  I'm thinking that reason is in the mix somewhere.

Sure, but the Americas were thousands of years behind in development for everything, so this is just one of innumerable ways the settlers outcompeted the natives.  

8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. I like that you said 'fix'.  If we were to suppress all use of shame-inducing terms and wringing of crying cloths but committed to fixing things I would be fine with that.

I would feel a lot better about it if we were approaching it as we do other disadvantaged groups.  We can talk about fixing things, but I don't think that's possible under the current state of affairs with the reserves or special native status etc.  We have 3 sets of people in Canada who cannot legally own property:  children, the mentally incompetent, and natives living on reserves.  That's an unworkable system and a recipe for perpetuated hopelessness. 

I think a good start would be ripping up the Indian Act and similar legislation and coming to agreement with the First Nations that actually makes sense.  That's probably a hopeless endeavor and would be a Constitutional Issue, but I don't think it's any more hopeless than resolving/fixing things under the status quo.   

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8 hours ago, Moonbox said:

1. Sure, but the Americas were thousands of years behind in development for everything, so this is just one of innumerable ways the settlers outcompeted the natives.  

2.I  think a good start would be ripping up the Indian Act and similar legislation and coming to agreement with the First Nations that actually makes sense.  That's probably a hopeless endeavor and would be a Constitutional Issue, but I don't think it's any more hopeless than resolving/fixing things under the status quo.   

1. This is very arguable.  Given that it was an ongoing war situation, we can certainly say that weaponry was the key to the defeat of the native North Americans.

2. Well if you reverse the order of the first two.  And keep in mind that you're talking about many nations, so patience and clear focus on goals is required.  Things like this will necessarily span several governments so you have to safeguard against an election happening and throwing out years of discussion as happened when Harper defeated Paul Martin IIRC

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2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. This is very arguable.  Given that it was an ongoing war situation, we can certainly say that weaponry was the key to the defeat of the native North Americans.

We're not really debating anything here.  The North American natives were thousands of years behind most of the rest of the world in everything.  They didn't have horses.  They never even worked in bronze, let alone iron, so it goes without saying their weaponry didn't match up, but that's far from the only disadvantage they suffered.  They quickly adapted and traded for European weaponry, and that didn't really do much to stem the tide.  

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. Well if you reverse the order of the first two.  And keep in mind that you're talking about many nations, so patience and clear focus on goals is required.  Things like this will necessarily span several governments so you have to safeguard against an election happening and throwing out years of discussion as happened when Harper defeated Paul Martin IIRC

Yes, perhaps I could have written that better.  You obviously can't rip up the Indian act without a new agreement.  In the meantime, it would be nice if we could make this a bi-partisan thing that all parties share an interest in fixing.  As it stands, like with a lot of things, we just kick the can down the road and send good money after bad.  

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36 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

1. We're not really debating anything here.  The North American natives were thousands of years behind most of the rest of the world in everything.  They didn't have horses.  They never even worked in bronze, let alone iron, so it goes without saying their weaponry didn't match up, but that's far from the only disadvantage they suffered.  They quickly adapted and traded for European weaponry, and that didn't really do much to stem the tide.  

2. Yes, perhaps I could have written that better.  You obviously can't rip up the Indian act without a new agreement.  In the meantime, it would be nice if we could make this a bi-partisan thing that all parties share an interest in fixing.  As it stands, like with a lot of things, we just kick the can down the road and send good money after bad.  

1. I agree we're not debating but without the military advantage I'm not sure how the Europeans could have beat them in guerilla warfare that ensued for centuries.  The problem with 'trading' for weapons, though, is that you required allies with the technology - and playing English/French/Spanish off each other didn't work forever.  

2. IIRC the Martin agreement was supposed to be a template but Harper killed it.  My own knowledge of those events is admittedly sparse.

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On 11/28/2022 at 1:48 PM, eyeball said:

Hmmm.

It's Huff post, one of the few media organizations which makes the Toronto Star seem centrist. And of course, it plays with figures and charts, largely because, as the PBO says in their report 

Absolute dollar impacts often skew to higher income groups, as these groups have larger tax obligations. Income-weighted benefits, as depicted in Figure 1-4, are most commonly broadly or progressively distributed. The financial gains from cumulative PIT and GST/HST changes since 2005 skew toward households with larger incomes when measured in absolute dollar terms. However, measured as relative gain to after-tax and transfer income, tax regime changes have been progressive, overall

On 11/28/2022 at 1:48 PM, eyeball said:

I would point to the way Trudeau handled or was handled by SNC Lavalin as evidence of right-wing proclivity.  Trump stumps for the 'regular guy' too, they all do.

Trudeau's efforts on behalf of SNC Lavalin were primarily out of fear that letting them be prosecuted would hurt the Liberals electorally in Quebec. Macleans.

On 11/28/2022 at 1:48 PM, eyeball said:

So what? If conservatives couldn't support it they coulda shoulda put a stop to them.  They've had plenty of opportunities to do so over the last 150 years or so.

Put a stop to what? Educating natives? There was only about a thirty year period when it was mandatory for native kids to attend residential schools. And even then it wasn't very well enforced as only about a third of native kids during that time attended residential schools.

 

On 11/28/2022 at 1:48 PM, eyeball said:

Assigning liability to a political leaning won't work any more than assigning it to individuals, the scope of the cost can only be borne by institutions meaning us.  I would hope that the cost of settlements following reconciliation would spur all of us to demand more robust systems of accountability so that we're not left in such costly lurches in the future. 

What, you think we'll be signing treaties with people within our borders in future? 

On 11/28/2022 at 1:48 PM, eyeball said:

Wait until people start suing governments on the grounds they're liable for damages done when dragging their feet on climate change initiatives if it can be shown this foot-dragging increased the damage.   Do you think ideology will get anyone off the hook?

Nothing Canada can do is going to have the slightest impact on climate change.

On 11/28/2022 at 1:48 PM, eyeball said:

Instead of the great emphasis placed on the division between right and left I'd much prefer we place that emphasis on the gulf between governed and governments.

Except it's generally the Left which wants to continually increase the scope and size of government, and its power and effect, and influence on our lives.

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On 11/28/2022 at 4:28 PM, Michael Hardner said:

1. I hear you.  I hate paying for mine tailings, knowing that the grandkids of the folks who owned the mine are cruising past me in Porches.

Not quite equivalent. We have to clean up the mine. We don't have to treat natives like fragile children who have to be carefully protected, nurtured and have all their decisions made for them by us.

On 11/28/2022 at 4:28 PM, Michael Hardner said:

2. My answer: probably not, no.  What is your answer to what I asked ?

I'm not clear on the scope of the question. What would be done differently about native schools? Or what would be done differently to integrate natives? I'll assume the latter. And the answer to that is difficult because we face the problem that the majority of the representatives of natives are quite content, thanks very much, with the present system. They and their families are at the top of the pyramid and have little reason to want that pyramid torn down and replaced with something that wouldn't pay them nearly so well or give them any real power.

A professor whose name I forget said something once about how the leaders of disadvantaged minority groups rarely have much interest in pursuing goals which might result in promoting the disadvantaged minority and moving them into harmony with the whole because if that succeeds they no longer need those leaders.

Which means you're going to have to overcome almost certain opposition from native chiefs and go over their heads to the natives themselves in proposing solutions that would result in abandoning the reserve system and the Indian Act in favor of a change which would be challenging and tumultuous but result in a better life in the long run. And certainly a better life for their kids. You need to overcome fear of the  unknown, reassure people that they'll have something to fall back on. It ain't going to be easy, and would require determination for a long-term solution which none of our leaders have so far shown much inclination for.

On 11/28/2022 at 4:28 PM, Michael Hardner said:


3. You are speaking past the part where they consider themselves to be a separate nation and that we have made peace with nations within Canada.  Harper himself accommodated this concept, with Quebec.  You need to explain how you're going to do this differently this time, still.

They are not separate nations. That is a polite fiction, like an adult patting a child's head and congratulating them on some terrible creation they've just presented you with. Most of these 'nations' are under 2,000 people strong. That's not a nation. It's barely a village. Not to mention separate nations don't need to have 100% of their bills paid by someone else. Quebec, btw, is not a nation either, but that's a whole other argument about political cowardice.

On 11/28/2022 at 4:28 PM, Michael Hardner said:

4. You will never get shared identity but you can hope for shared values.

A nation without a sense of shared identity is brittle and will fracture at the stress lines and dissolve into violence under pressure.

On 11/28/2022 at 4:28 PM, Michael Hardner said:

6. 7. Yes, so you are talking about cost cutting, which to me is always at odds with making real change.  You have to pick one priority.  I think reduced costs can result from a true reconciliation but why wouldn't they suspect someone who shows up with that agenda ?  You would too.

Of course there would eventually be cost savings. Do you imagine Canadians are going to put up with paying their way forever? It's going to last only until the majority of power brokers in parliament are not white. Once the Asians take over - and they will inevitably take over given immigration and birth levels) natives are going to be faced with some pretty goddam harsh choices because I've never met a non white immigrant who had ANY sympathy for natives (I'm sure there are at least some who do). And the ones with the least sympathy are the ones whose culture is most demanding of hard work. And yes, I'm aware Jagmeet Singh makes all kinds of mouth noises about supporting natives, but he's a trust fund rich boy who operates on an ideological level quite different from most people. 

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We're such suckups and bleeding hearts over the past we feel more sympathy for a homicidal lunatic who cut the throat of a blind man on the train for fun than we do towards his victim.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/crime/man-who-slashed-strangers-throat-on-ctrain-avoids-federal-prison-judge-considers-fasd-diagnosis

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Very exacting posts, Groot.  It’s refreshing to see honesty combined with confidence and clarity, as many posters on here and the politicians they support lack conviction and the backbone to support it.  I think young people desperately crave honest, insightful criticism of dubious cultural narratives that have no scientific or ethical basis but have been rammed down their throats by left-wing ideologues over the past several years.

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1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

We're such suckups and bleeding hearts over the past we feel more sympathy for a homicidal lunatic who cut the throat of a blind man on the train for fun than we do towards his victim.

https://calgaryherald.com/news/crime/man-who-slashed-strangers-throat-on-ctrain-avoids-federal-prison-judge-considers-fasd-diagnosis

From your article;

Quote

 

Van Harten said the generational trauma European society has caused to Indigenous communities had to be addressed.

“The history of colonialism has to be taken into account,” he said.

 

Like I said this is going to take generations - you should learn to just let it go.

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11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. I agree we're not debating but without the military advantage I'm not sure how the Europeans could have beat them in guerilla warfare that ensued for centuries.  The problem with 'trading' for weapons, though, is that you required allies with the technology - and playing English/French/Spanish off each other didn't work forever.

The Europeans would have beat them just by scale.  The advantage was everywhere.  From more intense farming and husbandry, to better transport, building and logistics, the settlers would have beat the natives with early medieval weaponry (providing they could cross the Atlantic safely).  

Guerilla warfare wasn't a uniquely native thing either.  

11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. IIRC the Martin agreement was supposed to be a template but Harper killed it.  My own knowledge of those events is admittedly sparse.

I don't really know either.  I remember the debates on this forum back in the Harper times were silly things, with left-leaning folk talking about large swathes of urban Ontario and BC being handed back to First Nations etc.  

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