Nationalist Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 7 minutes ago, Moonbox said: Most Canadians agree. That 2/3 of our main party leaders are boobs is fairly common sentiment. Surely the 3rd isn't just as bad or worse...right? ☹️ The climate stuff isn't BS, and you aren't the spokesperson for the Canadian people. That much of our climate agenda has been some combination of ill-advised, out-of-touch or downright corrupt is (IMO) inarguable. Sadly we have polarized politics where on one side we have "smelly Walmart people" denying the very idea of climate change, and the other hand we have equally ignorant Greta wannabes peddling outrage and distaste for anyone who doesn't unquestionably fall in line with the existing agenda. There is a middle ground where we take the problem seriously and come up with practical solutions where we invest in the proper projects/policies/technology without a lot of influence-peddling and grift, but all of the oxygen gets sucked out of the debate by people screaming at each other. Surely? No. People who will argue that the climate isn't being altered by man's presence, are few and far between. BINGO! It feels weird but, THIS I have been saying for how long now? The climate alarmists have been programmed to think we all gonna die...like tomorrow. They have little to no faith in Man. Man has amazing capabilities to find solutions to the problems he makes. For instance, the Ozone layer. If climate change is a serious problem, then governments should invest in R&D and trust that they can find a solution to this, without having to destroy the existing means of energy production. When a method is found that is neutral, and realistic, THEN we can begin a transition. Not before at the expense of every human being on the planet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 11 Author Report Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, Boges said: When the first idea of a Carbon tax was proposed And one more time, at issue is the tax on the charge, in essence, another tax. Why there should be a "goods and services tax" on the charge dictated and taken by the government? What kind of b-dy "service" is that? What h-ing "sale" do we mean? What sense does it make, why and where? Can the try to stay on the topic, just this once? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 1 minute ago, myata said: And one more time, at issue is the tax on the charge, in essence, another tax. Why there should be a "goods and services tax" on the charge dictated and taken by the government? What kind of b-dy "service" is that? What h-ing "sale" do we mean? What sense does it make, why and where? Can the try to stay on the topic, just this once? So I guess you oppose the idea of an Excise tax too. If you're not aware, the HST or GST is tacked onto the Carbon tax, as with all Excise and Gas Taxes. I'm sure that makes you even more insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 11 Author Report Share Posted January 11 4 minutes ago, Boges said: "as with" the reason, really? Just shut up, pay up and be happy? Like why asking questions if there's only one answer... one of the two, Canada and the evolution, has to be terribly wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 13 minutes ago, Boges said: It's an incentive to use less fossil fuels. I guess if you don't even agree that reducing our reliance on fossil fuels is a good then then this must seem like an a front to freedom. But the other purpose of the carbon tax is to put a price on harmful emissions. It shouldn't be free to pollute. Its a punishment.! We can reduce our reliance on fossil fuels when we find a suitable replacement and not before. Your binary logic tells me you have no faith in Man to resolve this, so you have to make them suffer in order to get what you want. That's not an afront to freedom...its an afront to humanity. It shouldn't be free to pollute? Used a free plastic bag recently? How 'bout a nice bottle of water? Is the furnace running in your home? And how the hell are you conversing over a medium that relies on electricity to function? You're a hypocrite and you're religion is forcing the planet's inhabitants to suffer unnecessarily. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 11 Author Report Share Posted January 11 (edited) Look I've got a better explanation for you, one that actually makes sense: a tax grab. Look we're so cute and caring doing this great thing for the environment your children you know everyone has to chip in all the great talking and then... grab! Because we can. What? Simple. Edited January 11 by myata Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 9 minutes ago, myata said: the reason, really? Just shut up, pay up and be happy? Like why asking questions if there's only one answer... one of the two, Canada and the evolution, has to be terribly wrong Change happens through elections. The current government and the party that's propping up their minority are very clear about their support for putting a price on Carbon emissions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 3 minutes ago, Nationalist said: BINGO! It feels weird but, THIS I have been saying for how long now? The climate alarmists have been programmed to think we all gonna die...like tomorrow. They have little to no faith in Man. Right, but we don't solve anything by declaring war on climate science, or the "alarmists". We do it by pointing at bad policy and presenting better alternatives. 3 minutes ago, Nationalist said: Man has amazing capabilities to find solutions to the problems he makes. For instance, the Ozone layer. If climate change is a serious problem, then governments should invest in R&D and trust that they can find a solution to this, without having to destroy the existing means of energy production. Climate change is a serious problem. Governments are investing in R&D. Some means of energy production are better/cleaner than others. Just because we don't have perfect solutions doesn't mean we don't do anything. 3 minutes ago, Nationalist said: When a method is found that is neutral, and realistic, THEN we can begin a transition. Not before at the expense of every human being on the planet. There's lots that we can do to begin already. Natural gas burns ~40-45% cleaner than coal, but we have certain groups and jurisdictions fighting even that transition. F'em. There are frothing greens out there who will bi**ch and moan that we're replacing one fossil fuel for another. F them too. 45% reduction in emissions for power generation is huge, and it's economically viable. No solution is perfect, but that doesn't mean we don't pick any. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 6 minutes ago, Nationalist said: Its a punishment.! We can reduce our reliance on fossil fuels when we find a suitable replacement and not before. Your binary logic tells me you have no faith in Man to resolve this, so you have to make them suffer in order to get what you want. That's not an afront to freedom...its an afront to humanity.I There are plenty of solutions to reduce reliance on carbon. Some, like you, just refuse to use any of said solutions. Quote It shouldn't be free to pollute? Used a free plastic bag recently? How 'bout a nice bottle of water? Is the furnace running in your home? And how the hell are you conversing over a medium that relies on electricity to function? You're a hypocrite and you're religion is forcing the planet's inhabitants to suffer unnecessarily. Many grocery stores don't offer free plastic bags, most actually don't offer them at all anymore. I would like to see plastic water bottles be subject to some kind of recycling or disposal surcharge like with see with Liqour bottles or tires. Would you? I also believe Natural Gas is subject to the Carbon Tax. I guess electricity isn't because in many cases the electricity is derived from emission free sources. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 7 minutes ago, myata said: Look I've got a better explanation for you, one that actually makes sense: a tax grab. Look we're so cute and caring doing this great thing for the environment your children you know everyone has to chip in all the great talking and then... grab! Because we can. What? Simple. Is it was a tax grab, then why provide a rebate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 11 Author Report Share Posted January 11 2 minutes ago, Boges said: Is it was a tax grab, then why provide a rebate? It's really challenging to keep the focus, isn't it? Remember, the point was about the tax, GST. GST on the charge, "the service". What rebate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 1 minute ago, myata said: It's really challenging to keep the focus, isn't it? Remember, the point was about the tax, GST. GST on the charge, "the service". What rebate? You get a Tax Rebate for the Carbon Tax when you do your taxes every year. It's like $200-$300. At 11 cents a litre, you'd have to buy like 2000 litres of gas for that not to be Revenue Neutral. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 11 Author Report Share Posted January 11 2 minutes ago, Boges said: You get a Tax Rebate for the Carbon Tax Does it include the GST rebate too? Where did it say anything about that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 11 Author Report Share Posted January 11 4 minutes ago, Boges said: to buy like 2000 litres of gas for that not to be Revenue Neutral In what Universe would that be? Can we relocate? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aristides Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 11 minutes ago, Boges said: Is it was a tax grab, then why provide a rebate? It will be a tax grab eventually. BC's carbon tax used to be revenue neutral but now it just goes into general revenue. Too much money involved for governments to keep their hands off for long. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Aristides said: It will be a tax grab eventually. BC's carbon tax used to be revenue neutral but now it just goes into general revenue. Too much money involved for governments to keep their hands off for long. That would only be true, if the true goal of the tax wasn't to actually put a price on pollution. Edited January 11 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 1 minute ago, Moonbox said: Right, but we don't solve anything by declaring war on climate science, or the "alarmists". We do it by pointing at bad policy and presenting better alternatives. Climate change is a serious problem. Governments are investing in R&D. Some means of energy production are better/cleaner than others. Just because we don't have perfect solutions doesn't mean we don't do anything. There's lots that we can do to begin already. Natural gas burns ~40-45% cleaner than coal, but we have certain groups and jurisdictions fighting even that transition. F'em. There are frothing greens out there who will bi**ch and moan that we're replacing one fossil fuel for another. F them too. 45% reduction in emissions for power generation is huge, and it's economically viable. No solution is perfect, but that doesn't mean we don't pick any. The identification of bad policy and a better alternative have been voiced...over and over. The answer is...insults. We can do things. Nat gas as you point out. We could build more nuclear plants too. But instead, the government decides to punish those who can afford this transition the least. They impose taxes. They squelch fossil fuel mining. They handcuff themselves to priceless art and proceed to destroy it. Pick a rational solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 48 minutes ago, Boges said: There are plenty of solutions to reduce reliance on carbon. Some, like you, just refuse to use any of said solutions. Many grocery stores don't offer free plastic bags, most actually don't offer them at all anymore. I would like to see plastic water bottles be subject to some kind of recycling or disposal surcharge like with see with Liqour bottles or tires. Would you? I also believe Natural Gas is subject to the Carbon Tax. I guess electricity isn't because in many cases the electricity is derived from emission free sources. Horseshit!!! You KNOW I am all for rational solutions. That means your not only at odds with humanity...but ur a Gawd Damn liar to boot. How many plastic bags do you have in your house? I would like to see recycling actually work. Boges...laddie...there's no such thing as an "emission free source". Everything we do to extract energy from our resources, is gonna produce a byproduct of some sort. Man learned that the hard way many decades ago in places like Sudbury. Fortunately, Man is not the mindless beast you seem to think he is, and found a way to fix the problem he caused. We do that...we humans. We fix things. What do your ilk do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Nationalist said: Horseshit!!! You KNOW I am all for rational solutions. That means your not only at odds with humanity...but ur a Gawd Damn liar to boot. The more you post like this the more I know your ability to debate any topic is suspect. Quote How many plastic bags do you have in your house? How is that relevant? The only reason I get more plastic bags is to use as Garbage bags, which is something I can easily buy separately. If you regularly shop at Costco, you get used to not using plastic bags. Quote I would like to see recycling actually work. For many materials it does work. Quote Boges...laddie...there's no such thing as an "emission free source". Everything we do to extract energy from our resources, is gonna produce a byproduct of some sort. Man learned that the hard way many decades ago in places like Sudbury. Fortunately, Man is not the mindless beast you seem to think he is, and found a way to fix the problem he caused. We do that...we humans. We fix things. What do your ilk do? Sure if you want to be Meta about it. But there's a difference between Hydro-electricity or Nuclear power vs Coal related to emissions. Ditto with ICE vehicles vs EVs. The Carbon tax is looking to tackle belching toxic gas into the air, at the source. If your car has a tailpipe, that's the source. Edited January 11 by Boges Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 4 hours ago, myata said: Same idea sure: because he can. Like, why not it pays more and everybody is happy. The victims of this ripoff are telling themselves to be happy because their benevolent ruler is telling them it is all for their good while the ruler jets off around the world to live in $6000 a night hotels and wine and dine with the rest of the elite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 6 minutes ago, Boges said: The more you post like this the more I know your ability to debate any topic is suspect. How is that relevant? The only reason I get more plastic bags is to use as Garbage bags, which is something I can easily buy separately. If you regularly shop at Costco, you get used to not using plastic bags. For many materials it does work. Sure if you want to be Meta about it. But there's a difference between Hydro-electricity or Nuclear power on Coal and related emission. Ditto with ICE vehicles and EVs. The Carbon tax is looking to tackle belching toxic gas into the air, at the source. If your car has a tailpipe, that's the source. My ability to debate is just fine. Go hide somewhere if being called out for what you are, offends you. Its relevant because its a minor product of oil that is in every household. Without plastics, our world would be a lot different right now. But none of that even crosses your mind...as you type on plastics. Ask your local garbageman where the bulk of our recycling goes. If I want to be Meta? Son...we're talking about the industry that happens to form the base of the global economy. Its dismantling is causing suffrage all over the globe. In every neighbourhood. In every house. Even yours. That's pretty Gawd Damn Meta. You greenies are completely irresponsible. So again...while we humans fix things...what does your ilk do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boges Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 3 minutes ago, Nationalist said: My ability to debate is just fine. Go hide somewhere if being called out for what you are, offends you. If you can't have a discussion without resorting to ad hominem attacks, it does speak about your mental capacity to have a civil discussion. Quote Its relevant because its a minor product of oil that is in every household. Without plastics, our world would be a lot different right now. But none of that even crosses your mind...as you type on plastics. Maybe you're not up on the news lately, but there has been a huge push to reduce the amounts of single-use plastics people use. Wal-mart has given up on Single-Use plastics. Quote Why are you acting like all garbage is the same? Different products have different levels of use for recycling. Quote If I want to be Meta? Son...we're talking about the industry that happens to form the base of the global economy. Its dismantling is causing suffrage all over the globe. In every neighbourhood. In every house. Even yours. That's pretty Gawd Damn Meta. You greenies are completely irresponsible. I'll file this portion of your post away in the "Old Man Waving at Clouds" file. It's the young people that are advocating for climate responsibility. Quote So again...while we humans fix things...what does your ilk do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myata Posted January 11 Author Report Share Posted January 11 8 minutes ago, blackbird said: The victims of this ripoff Willing victims? And if so, why not participants, like everyone has a role to play in this show. For some, caviar dinners on a public dime, for others tax on a charge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nationalist Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 15 minutes ago, Boges said: If you can't have a discussion without resorting to ad hominem attacks, it does speak about your mental capacity to have a civil discussion. Maybe you're not up on the news lately, but there has been a huge push to reduce the amounts of single-use plastics people use. Wal-mart has given up on Single-Use plastics. Why are you acting like all garbage is the same? Different products have different levels of use for recycling. I'll file this portion of your post away in the "Old Man Waving at Clouds" file. It's the young people that are advocating for climate responsibility. Huh... Son, you can file it right where the sun don't shine for all I care. You cannot name one thing your ilk has done, that produces a benefit to anyone. All you do is destroy things. BTW...I have 3 children in their 20's. Thank Gawd none of them are as inhumane...or is it inhuman...as you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonbox Posted January 11 Report Share Posted January 11 1 hour ago, Nationalist said: The identification of bad policy and a better alternative have been voiced...over and over. The answer is...insults. Perhaps, but the rational talk gets suffocated by the stupidity on both sides. The knee-jerk reaction for either is to point to the extremes. 1 hour ago, Nationalist said: We can do things. Nat gas as you point out. We could build more nuclear plants too. But instead, the government decides to punish those who can afford this transition the least. They impose taxes. They squelch fossil fuel mining. They handcuff themselves to priceless art and proceed to destroy it. Pick a rational solution. Natural gas and nuclear plants are two rational solutions, but even THOSE get protested (again, by both sides). The Karens and Kens wet their beds at the prospect of coal plants being shut down and energy costs going up marginally, and the tree huggers go apeshit at the thought of natural gas because it's another (albeit massively cleaner) fossil fuel, or because nuclear waste has a long half-life. Neither will accept a half-measure. It's all or nothing, or everyone goes REeeeee! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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