Ontario’s bill to stop CUPE strike

[ExFlyer]

27 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

So?

Besides those are some pretty selective facts. “Spending” also includes covid related spending and “increasing hiring” includes filling all the vacant roles due to the massive wave of retirements since the start of the pandemic. The editorial also suggests PD days are days off but they are actually work days
 

Am I supposed  rage that a building automation specialist or head caretaker don’t “deserve” their hourly wage?

So?

Selective facts? No, they are clarifying the facts the union is using as their defence for going on strike.

Fact is there are more teacher than before and less students but, as you surly know, this is not about or include teachers yet the union likes to play on that.

The clarification is to show that there are many different groups and wage scales and the union is only claiming that they are getting $39K per year when in fact, part timers, beginning part timers get $39K for 194 working days a year.

Yes, they "deserve a working wage" if they have a position that is year long and work all year and rise up in the organization as all other jobs. You start at the bottom and work up, not start high and go higher.

The article just clarifies, illustrates and provides background to Union claims. It is factual.

[I am Groot]

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

You’re baking in poverty to society then.

Poverty by what standards? Is there real poverty in Canada compared to the rest of the world? Anyway, winners and losers are an inevitable part of Capitalism. We soften the blow for the losers more than at any time in history.

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

And do you notice how you only apply this logic to the labour side of the equation?  How come we the people don’t only allow corporations to earn the minimum profits required to provide their goods and services to the public via price controls and taxes?

Because absent oligopolies and monopolies, which only survive because of government interference, it already works that way for corporations and business. Whoever produces the best goods/service at the lowest price gets the most customers. No government 'requirements' needed.

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Its a man-made rule created by elites that says we should only apply controls and render judgment on the labour side of the equation. 

Only if the government interferes. I'm all for banning temporary foreign workers except in extreme circumstances, as well as any immigrants who aren't highly skilled and can earn sufficient money to contribute to society. If that means business can't find workers at lower wages I'm okay with that. Business can either raise the wages and make the jobs more tenable or close down. Most of those offering poor wages are from the service sector anyway. It doesn't matter to Canada if they go out of business since they produce nothing of value.

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

No, that’s the way neoliberalism works. There’s no reason we can’t ensure a minimum standard of living,

We already do.

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

especially for those who provide essential services that we want and value. There’s no rule of nature that says income distribution should exactly follow distribution of ability, instead of say value to society. 

It's not necessarily about distribution of ability. It's about distribution of skills which are in demand and how many people have them. Higher pay rates are based on scarcity of the supply of employees. Or would be absent government interference.  

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

I don’t think that’s accurate at all.  By almost any objective measure, over the last several decades necessities like a home and a post-seondary education have been much more expensive and stable good paying jobs have been much more difficult to obtain and to keep.

And it hasn't occurred to you that this coincides with the period when immigration shot up and stayed up high without regard to the needs or health of the economy? At the start of the 1980s immigration was about 80k a year.

But compare how economic losers live today with how they lived fifty, sixty, seventy years ago, or any time prior to that. There's a reason why all the world's poor want to come live here.

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Ontario is not a person, it is a government so the comparison to someone “who owes as much debt” is false. As for the increased cost of paying off debt as you say in first breath the conditions are temporary. Besides as the economy grows so does the ability to pay debt over the long term. 

We suspect the conditions are temporary. But it took interest rates at 20% to finally wrestle inflation to the ground in the 1970s, and it's unlikely government would ever allow the national banks to bump it that high today. And it only takes a few years. Much of our debt is a legacy of Mulroney inheriting a $40 billion deficit from Trudeau in the midst of a deep recession and double digit interest rates. He had to borrow tens of billions every year at those high rates, which rapidly increased the size of the debt. If that happens with the enormous debt Canadian provincial and federal governments have today we're all going to be in deep, deep trouble within a few years. And when you borrow long term debt at high interest rates you don't get to just lower your payments when the interest rate falls.

We've been bringing in huge numbers of immigrants for decades now. Has it made it easier for the government - any of them - to pay down debt? 

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

 The statement that the “Liberals drive down wages by flooding the place with foreign workers and immigrants” is just stock nonsmoking. Immigration doesn’t drive down wages,

https://financialpost.com/news/economy/immigrant-influx-is-stunting-wage-growth-in-canadian-recovery

https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/canadian-wage-growth-lagging-u-s-because-of-immigration-levels-cibc-1.1704641

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

“the place” is not “flooded” by immigrants and foreign workers,

Half a million legal immigrants a year plus an unknown number of illegal immigrants plus 600k foreign students who can work long hours plus 300k temporary foreign workers sounds like a flood in a country with our population. Especially when it's unending, decade after decade. Foreign born people will be the majority of our population in a few decades. That sounds like a flood. They're already the majority in Toronto and very nearly in Vancouver.

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

and the Liberals aren’t uniquely or especially responsible for immigration.  

No but they are the party which has been consistent in raising the numbers almost every year they've been in power.

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

But maybe if employers paid higher wages Canadians would be attracted to their work and they wouldn’t be seeking to hire foreign workers. 

Why would they when they can just hire an immigrant or foreigner for less?

[Moonbox]

CUPE school workers going back tomorrow.  The obvious brinksmanship walked us to the edge and then predictably stepped back. 

Good job CUPE.  Good Job Dofo.  Now you guys can continue arguing in the background and come to an agreement like the reasonable people we hope you are.  

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-doug-ford-announcement-cupe/

 

Edited November 7, 2022 by Moonbox

[Dougie93]

On 11/6/2022 at 11:07 AM, Zeitgeist said:

Also remember that the private sector employees generally resent the public sector ones because of pension and job security.   Public opinion can turn against unions fast if it looks like the public purse is being robbed.  Moderation is critical.

I have little sympathy for public sector unions

but at this point, the whole province is imploding into a debt crisis, all at once

one guy I work with, works two shifts back to back, 18 hours a day, 7 days a week

he just had a head on collision in his car, now in hospital, I suspect sleep deprivation related

another guy I work with, works 12 hour shifts 6 days a week

yet still his rent check bounced and he & his two kids just got an eviction notice

 

[Zeitgeist]

19 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

I have little sympathy for public sector unions

but at this point, the whole province is imploding into a debt crisis, all at once

one guy I work with, works two shifts back to back, 18 hours a day, 7 days a week

he just had a head on collision in his car, now in hospital, I suspect sleep deprivation related

another guy I work with, works 12 hour shifts 6 days a week

yet still his rent check bounced and he & his two kids just got an eviction notice

 

It’s hard not to feel ambivalent at times because so many people have endured so much, but slackers exist at all levels.  Most people are conscientious.  Most of us are getting poorer right now, but the people at the bottom generally get the worst of it.

[Dougie93]

8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s hard not to feel ambivalent at times because so many people have endured so much, but slackers exist at all levels.  Most people are conscientious.  Most of us are getting poorer right now, but the people at the bottom generally get the worst of it.

Christian conservatives

Christian first

a singe father & his two children, 9 & 14,  facing eviction into the streets

politics falls away for me then

I offered to loan him money

he said he couldn't take anymore loans

I offered to give him money

he was too proud to take it

he's my boss, he didn't want to take money from an employee

[BeaverFever]

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Poverty by what standards? Is there real poverty in Canada compared to the rest of the world?

“Don’t worry Tiny Tim, you’re actually  not that poor….compared to people Haiti “

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

We soften the blow for the losers more than at any time in history.

No not more than any time. “The blow” was softer before all the austerity measures of the last couple of decades. Also. We’ve also make it much harder for those in the lower ranks to get ahead than any time since ww2   
 

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Because absent oligopolies and monopolies, which only survive because of government interference,

Not true. Sometimes they exist due to lack of government interference 

 

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Whoever produces the best goods/service at the lowest price gets the most customers.

I think that’s a very naive and overly simplistic. If that were true youd have a lit more companies operating on not-for profit basis and wouldn’t have so many millionaire executives in order to offer the absolute best product at the absolute lowest price. And you wouldn’t see companies doing things like buying up their own stock or hoarding billions in offshore shell companies Consumers are the least informed and least powerful participants in the economy. 

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Only if the government interferes. I'm all for banning temporary foreign workers except in extreme circumstances, as well as any immigrants who aren't highly skilled and can earn sufficient money to contribute to society. If that means business can't find workers at lower wages I'm okay with that. Business can either raise the wages and make the jobs more tenable or close down. Most of those offering poor wages are from the service sector anyway. It doesn't matter to Canada if they go out of business since they produce nothing of value.

What do you mean only if the go before interferes?  What about a strike at an auto plant?  How do you feel about temp workers picking fruit, working in slaughterhouses, looking after our children and elderly?  People couldn’t afford those things without importing the cheap labour. 
 

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

We already do.

The minimum is too low relative the cost of necessities much less the cost to get ahead and become self sufficient. 
 

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

It's not necessarily about distribution of ability. It's about distribution of skills which are in demand and how many people have them. Higher pay rates are based on scarcity of the supply of employees. Or would be absent government interference.  

Same thing. But given that society demands many things that don’t require special skill and therefore demands many unskilled workers to provide them, those people should not have to live poverty with no way out. 
 

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

And it hasn't occurred to you that this coincides with the period when immigration shot up and stayed up high without regard to the needs or health of the economy? At the start of the 1980s immigration was about 80k a year.

But compare how economic losers live today with how they lived fifty, sixty, seventy years ago, or any time prior to that. There's a reason why all the world's poor want to come live here.

Sorry that’s all just xenophobic nonsense Immigration makes tuition go up?  The facts are most immigrants are economic skilled immigrants and are better skilled than the average Canadian. The reason the immigration numbers go up is because the population needs to grow but for decades we’ve had an aging population and so we need to replace the people who die and retire. 
 

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

We suspect the conditions are temporary. But it took interest rates at 20% to finally wrestle inflation to the ground in the 1970s, and it's unlikely government would ever allow the national banks to bump it that high today.

Today’s issues are not a repeat  the 70s-80s stagflation for a lot of reasons. As they say just because you see hoof prints don’t assume they’re from zebras.  For one thing our economy has been growing like crazy and is overheated and unemployment is low, that’s a major driver of current inflation. Conversely in the stagflation era inflation occurred while the economy was already doing poorly and unemployment was already high. Interest rates are now rising rapidly but they’re rising from historic lows unlike back then. 

 

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

We've been bringing in huge numbers of immigrants for decades now. Has it made it easier for the government - any of them - to pay down debt? 

Easier, they increase the number of people contributing to the economy  contrary to your insinuation they are not mostly on welfare and committing crimes  

 

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

https://financialpost.com/news/economy/immigrant-influx-is-stunting-wage-growth-in-canadian-recovery

Your year-old article claims that immigration is solving labour shortages and claiming thats a bad thing because it robs workers of leverage to demand wage increases. Weren’t you just complaining about striking workers driving up wages?  Now you’re complaining immigrants have been driving down wages? Which is it?

Also your articles is out of date and has been proven wrong by history   The wage increases occurred in Canada after all  

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/canada-added-108000-jobs-october-blowing-past-expectations-123535239.html

https://financialpost.com/news/economy/jobs-canada-beats-estimates/wcm/135b8dcd-dea4-4a65-9570-d619ba556944/amp/

 

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Half a million legal immigrants a year plus an unknown number of illegal immigrants plus 600k foreign students who can work long hours plus 300k temporary foreign workers sounds like a flood in a country with our population. Especially when it's unending, decade after decade. Foreign born people will be the majority of our population in a few decades. That sounds like a flood. They're already the majority in Toronto and very nearly in Vancouver.

And Toronto and Vancouver routinely rank as among the best cities in the world to live. I’m not swayed by this fear of a non-white majority. Our society seems to fairing pretty well considering the chaos we see south of our border.  The predictions of mandatory Chinese language instruction or sharia law haven’t come to pass yet and they’re about a decade and a half overdue. 
 

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

No but they are the party which has been consistent in raising the numbers almost every year they've been in power.

Even Harper raised the number. 
 

20 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Why would they when they can just hire an immigrant or foreigner for less?

How much would it take for you to pick fruit all day and how much would that fruit cost at the grocery store?  That said I’m all for PSWs, nannies, caregivers earning a good middle class wag and being subsidized by the government.

It’s ridiculous that we import people from foreign countries to take our grandparents to the bathroom and bathe our kids because in our society we’ve come to think that kind of work is beneath us based on the flawed logic you’ve shared about it not requiring “skills in demand”. It’s also ridiculous to expect that anyone  should do that for minimum wage or less.  I think those should be sought-after, well-paying jobs and in order for families to afford them they should be heavily subsidized by the government. But the anti-immigrant, anti-union crowd is against that too because they’re also anti-government spending. 

[I am Groot]

44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

“Don’t worry Tiny Tim, you’re actually  not that poor….compared to people Haiti “

Childish

44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

No not more than any time. “The blow” was softer before all the austerity measures of the last couple of decades. Also. We’ve also make it much harder for those in the lower ranks to get ahead than any time since ww2   

Nonsense

44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

The minimum is too low relative the cost of necessities much less the cost to get ahead and become self sufficient. 

Clearly it's not or people wouldn't do those jobs.

44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Sorry that’s all just xenophobic nonsense Immigration makes tuition go up?

First, what exactly is 'xenophobic' about it? Do you even know what the word means or is it just an epithet you heard somewhere that you use whenever anyone speaks ill of immigration? 

Tuition? Who has mentioned tuition? Are you on drugs or something?

44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

The facts are most immigrants are economic skilled immigrants

I dislike it when people lie by saying 'the facts are'. The facts are not as you've said which anyone with even a cursory understanding of immigration would know.

 

44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

The reason the immigration numbers go up is because the population needs to grow but for decades we’ve had an aging population and so we need to replace the people who die and retire. 

Before Trudeau doubled immigration the population was forecast to grow to 50 million by the turn of the century.

44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

For one thing our economy has been growing like crazy and is overheated and unemployment is low, that’s a major driver of current inflation.

You don't suppose borrowing hundreds of billions of dollars and dumping it into the economy might have had something to do with that, do you?

44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Easier, they increase the number of people contributing to the economy  contrary to your insinuation they are not mostly on welfare and committing crimes  

First, I never said they were mostly on welfare and committing crimes. In fact, I never said any of them were, though clearly some are. You seem more interested in arguing against things I never said, which doesn't suggest you're a very honest person or interested in any sort of reasonable discussions on this issue.

And if you'd read the cite I posted you'd realize it is GDP per person that matters not overall GDP.

44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Your year-old article

An article about immigration that is a year old is now out of date? Has the immigration process changed since then?  Are the effects and impacts of immigration any different? Do supply and demand no longer have any place in our understanding of economics? Do you have any understanding of economics?

44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

claims that immigration is solving labour shortages and claiming thats a bad thing because it robs workers of leverage to demand wage increases. Weren’t you just complaining about striking workers driving up wages?  Now you’re complaining immigrants have been driving down wages? Which is it?

I'm okay with wages rising naturally, as Capitalism suggests they should, to incentize workers towards jobs during a time of scarcity. That's not the same as approving of public sector unions demanding higher wages for a job than it deserves.

44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Also your articles is out of date and has been proven wrong by history

Nothing in the article is out of date. Proven wrong by... uh... by history? The idea occurs to me that your knowledge of history is as threadbare as your understanding of economics and immigration.

44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

And Toronto and Vancouver routinely rank as among the best cities in the world to live. I’m not swayed by this fear of a non-white majority.

Oh. As I suspected, you're one of those.

 

 

[ExFlyer]

14 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

I have little sympathy for public sector unions

but at this point, the whole province is imploding into a debt crisis, all at once

one guy I work with, works two shifts back to back, 18 hours a day, 7 days a week

he just had a head on collision in his car, now in hospital, I suspect sleep deprivation related

another guy I work with, works 12 hour shifts 6 days a week

yet still his rent check bounced and he & his two kids just got an eviction notice

 

Point?? Your employer does not pay well or, those 2 you mentioned cannot live within their means??

[TreeBeard]

On 11/8/2022 at 4:53 AM, ExFlyer said:

Point?? Your employer does not pay well or, those 2 you mentioned cannot live within their means??

Do you find many conservatives who are poor prefer people make as little as they do at bad jobs rather than choosing a different career path?  They lament unions, while wondering why they don’t make as much money…. 

[ExFlyer]

10 hours ago, TreeBeard said:

Do you find many conservatives who are poor prefer people make as little as they do at bad jobs rather than choosing a different career path?  They lament unions, while wondering why they don’t make as much money…. 

The question I asked was "Your employer does not pay well or, those 2 you mentioned cannot live within their means?? ". Of course, it went unanswered

I find it baffling that some people are so concerned at what others make.

I agree with you, don't complain, go get a better paying job.

[eyeball]

6 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

I find it baffling that some people are so concerned at what others make.

I find it encouraging that more people are concerned at what some don't make though and how the term living wage has become more common in debates around housing, cost of living and staffing issues affecting business's and communities everywhere.  

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

I find it encouraging that more people are concerned at what some don't make though and how the term living wage has become more common in debates around housing, cost of living and staffing issues affecting business's and communities everywhere.  

Canada is a very large country. The "term living wage" is not nation wide. It costs a lot more to live in a city, any city, world wide, than in rural areas.  A "living wage" in Toronto or Vancouver is considerably more than in Cornerbrook or Moose Jaw. It is not correct to wave the "living wage" wand over the entire country.

[eyeball]

34 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Canada is a very large country. The "term living wage" is not nation wide. It costs a lot more to live in a city, any city, world wide, than in rural areas.  A "living wage" in Toronto or Vancouver is considerably more than in Cornerbrook or Moose Jaw. It is not correct to wave the "living wage" wand over the entire country.

It's correct if not acute just about everywhere on Vancouver Island where we have people living everywhere from urban to rural and remote areas.

In any case living wages are usually determined locally for purposes of discussion. In my region some businesses, especially smaller ones try to adopt them best they can.

Edited November 11, 2022 by eyeball

[ExFlyer]

29 minutes ago, eyeball said:

It's correct if not acute just about everywhere on Vancouver Island where we have people living everywhere from urban to rural and remote areas.

In any case living wages are usually determined locally for purposes of discussion. In my region some businesses, especially smaller ones try to adopt them best they can.

Not quite correct. In the case of the CUPE issue here in Ontario, living wage is considered province wide. When "living wage" is discussed, it is more often with Toronto and Vancouver cited.

I lived on Vancouver Island for a dozen years when I was in the Air Force. The cost of living is/was quite different up and down the Island.

Edited November 11, 2022 by ExFlyer

[eyeball]

20 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Not quite correct. In the case of the CUPE issue here in Ontario, living wage is considered province wide. When "living wage" is discussed, it is more often with Toronto and Vancouver cited.

A living wage is a big topic on the coast and just about anywhere south of Campbell River. A living wage has been pegged at $22 a hour where I live. Business licenses are also being changed to allow for staff accommodations where that could be an option for employers.

20 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

I lived on Vancouver Island for a dozen years. The cost of living is quite different up and down the Island. 

I've lived here for nearly 50 years now. Change is a constant process.

Edited November 12, 2022 by eyeball

[Michael Hardner]

16 hours ago, eyeball said:

I find it encouraging that more people are concerned at what some don't make though and how the term living wage has become more common in debates around housing, cost of living and staffing issues affecting business's and communities everywhere.  

How about the fact that Doug Ford's attempt to crush a union using the non-withstanding clause lasted exactly one business day, was opposed by a super majority of ontarians, and resulted in all the unions uniting like they have not done in decades to threaten a general strike. That included unions that supported Ford in the election, construction unions.

 

And, eyeball, if you read between the lines of the chuds and chucklefux on here.. they very frequently post the rationale for being against carbon tax, immigration and so on as being that these things hurt so-called working people. So at the core their intuition about what's happening is correct.

All we need is for them to realize that Poilievres and Berniers are wolves in sheep's clothing, and find us a leader that can continue to stoke the prosperity we are achieving while making sure it gets to folks who work hard for a living.

[eyeball]

8 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

How about the fact that Doug Ford's attempt to crush a union using the non-withstanding clause lasted exactly one business day, was opposed by a super majority of ontarians, and resulted in all the unions uniting like they have not done in decades to threaten a general strike. That included unions that supported Ford in the election, construction unions.

Kudos to Ford for realizing his opening move was a mistake and backing away from it.  I also note Ford made some mention of a need to address the lowest paid workers needs. It would be great if Ontario's highest paid unionized workers could support that observation by tempering their demands when it's their turn to plead poverty.

 

Quote

 

And, eyeball, if you read between the lines of the chuds and chucklefux on here.. they very frequently post the rationale for being against carbon tax, immigration and so on as being that these things hurt so-called working people. So at the core their intuition about what's happening is correct.

All we need is for them to realize that Poilievres and Berniers are wolves in sheep's clothing, and find us a leader that can continue to stoke the prosperity we are achieving while making sure it gets to folks who work hard for a living.

 

First we need them to realize their sense that our core intuition is based on some desire for totalitarianism is retarded.

[BeaverFever]

On 11/7/2022 at 7:42 PM, I am Groot said:

Childish

How so?  People who struggle take mo solace in your argument that third world  countries have it worse

 

On 11/7/2022 at 7:42 PM, I am Groot said:

Nonsense

 Not alt all. Public  Services amd infrastructure have been starved of funding, tuition has skyrocketed, pension plans and retiree benefits have been all but completely eliminated, minimum wage and government benefits have not kept pace with inflation, the list goes on on. 
 

On 11/7/2022 at 7:42 PM, I am Groot said:

Clearly it's not or people wouldn't do those jobs.

What a ridiculous  assertion   People do those jobs due to lack of better options. 

[BeaverFever]

On 11/7/2022 at 7:42 PM, I am Groot said:

dislike it when people lie by saying 'the facts are'. The facts are not as you've said which anyone with even a cursory understanding of immigration would know.

That’s a fact, jack. More than half of immigrants are economic immigrants, which is a skill-based qualification  system   Inknow that’s d different from the myths you’ve heard your entire life from average people on the street and at the local pub who don’t know what they’re talking about but its a fact nonetheless. 
 

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/221026/dq221026a-eng.htm

 

On 11/7/2022 at 7:42 PM, I am Groot said:

Before Trudeau doubled immigration the population was forecast to grow to 50 million by the turn of the century.

So you say. And?

 

On 11/7/2022 at 7:42 PM, I am Groot said:

You don't suppose borrowing hundreds of billions of dollars and dumping it into the economy might have had something to do with that, do you?

It is one of many contributing factors but not the most significant one. 
 

On 11/7/2022 at 7:42 PM, I am Groot said:

An article about immigration that is a year old is now out of date? Has the immigration process changed since then?  Are the effects and impacts of immigration any different? Do supply and demand no longer have any place in our understanding of economics? Do you have any understanding of economics?

It as not just an “an article about immigration” it was article from year ago about the state of the economy (at that time) and saying immigrants to Canada were holding back wage increases during the labour crunch.  Well a year later and those wage increases are happening. So therefore yeah, it’s been proven wrong by history  and what a difference a year makes!

 

On 11/7/2022 at 7:42 PM, I am Groot said:

I'm okay with wages rising naturally, as Capitalism suggests they should, to incentize workers towards jobs during a time of scarcity. That's not the same as approving of public sector unions demanding higher wages for a job than it deserves.

What you don’t get is there’s nothing natural or objective about deciding what a job “deserves” especially whey talking about the minority of people in the public sector who must serve the majority of citizens who are in the private sector. That is a completely arbitrary man-made decision.

[I am Groot]

On 11/12/2022 at 6:58 AM, Michael Hardner said:

How about the fact that Doug Ford's attempt to crush a union using the non-withstanding clause lasted exactly one business day, was opposed by a super majority of ontarians, and resulted in all the unions uniting like they have not done in decades to threaten a general strike. That included unions that supported Ford in the election, construction unions.

I realize some people are happy Ford backed off here. But if it means he and other provincial governments are less likely to use this clause in future what we inevitably face are skyrocketing wages for the public sector.  What are they to do when the teachers go out, after all? Which they will. Wait a month? Two? Five? A year? There have been previous education strikes which had to be legislated back to work after a couple of months. That's no longer possible. Is that really worth cheering Just how high do you want public sector wages to go? How high can taxes go before everyone with talent heads south along with so many tech workers?

On 11/12/2022 at 6:58 AM, Michael Hardner said:

All we need is for them to realize that Poilievres and Berniers are wolves in sheep's clothing, and find us a leader that can continue to stoke the prosperity we are achieving while making sure it gets to folks who work hard for a living.

So... Jagmeet Singh, I guess? I mean, it will have to be someone who will 'continue' to stoke the prosperity by borrowing tens of billions of dollars every year without any thought of paying any of it back. It's certainly not been 'stoked' by increasing productivity, R&D efforts, or increasing exports. Nor will it be. It's 'stoked' by massive borrowing and by  increasing numbers of foreign immigrants and foreign workers desperate and ready to work long hours for low wages.

I'm not really sure, come to think of it, what you even mean by stoking 'our' prosperity since it's not clear to me that the average Canadian is in any way better off than they were fifty years ago. From what the OECD says the rest of the world is moving on past, leaving us behind while we flounder.

[I am Groot]

34 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

That’s a fact, jack. More than half of immigrants are economic immigrants, which is a skill-based qualification  system

If you include the spouses and children of the principle applicant, perhaps. If you disregard them maybe 20% are skilled. Though it's unclear if 'skilled' actually means 'employable'. If you've got a masters degree in something and expect to step into a good job here you'd better have superior language skills along with a skillset which is easily transferable and recognized here. Otherwise you're driving a taxi.

34 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

It as not just an “an article about immigration” it was article from year ago about the state of the economy (at that time) and saying immigrants to Canada were holding back wage increases during the labour crunch.  Well a year later and those wage increases are happening. So therefore yeah, it’s been proven wrong by history  and what a difference a year makes!

The wage increases are not happening to nearly the extent they are down south.

https://vancouversun.com/opinion/columnists/douglas-todd-why-canadian-wages-never-seem-to-go-up

34 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

What you don’t get is there’s nothing natural or objective about deciding what a job “deserves” especially whey talking about the minority of people in the public sector who must serve the majority of citizens who are in the private sector. That is a completely arbitrary man-made decision.

Never taken an economics course, I take it.

[Michael Hardner]

29 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

I realize some people are happy Ford backed off here. But if it means he and other provincial governments are less likely to use this clause in future what we inevitably face are skyrocketing wages for the public sector.  What are they to do when the teachers go out, after all? Which they will. Wait a month? Two? Five? A year? There have been previous education strikes which had to be legislated back to work after a couple of months. That's no longer possible. Is that really worth cheering Just how high do you want public sector wages to go? How high can taxes go before everyone with talent heads south along with so many tech workers?

So... Jagmeet Singh, I guess? I mean, it will have to be someone who will 'continue' to stoke the prosperity by borrowing tens of billions of dollars every year without any thought of paying any of it back. It's certainly not been 'stoked' by increasing productivity, R&D efforts, or increasing exports. Nor will it be. It's 'stoked' by massive borrowing and by  increasing numbers of foreign immigrants and foreign workers desperate and ready to work long hours for low wages.

I'm not really sure, come to think of it, what you even mean by stoking 'our' prosperity since it's not clear to me that the average Canadian is in any way better off than they were fifty years ago. From what the OECD says the rest of the world is moving on past, leaving us behind while we flounder.

Well I suppose we could acknowledge that dealing with labour is not a new thing, and there's no reason to use draconian constitutional suspension to manage this.

Lower wages are good for productivity too.  Fifty years ago there was a lot less disparity between wealthy and workers, and the lions share of GDP increases have gone to investors. 

If we want higher wages then why not pay childcare workers more? Their wages will go quickly to other Canadians not offshore accounts.

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Michael Hardner

[Zeitgeist]

23 hours ago, eyeball said:

Kudos to Ford for realizing his opening move was a mistake and backing away from it.  I also note Ford made some mention of a need to address the lowest paid workers needs. It would be great if Ontario's highest paid unionized workers could support that observation by tempering their demands when it's their turn to plead poverty.

 

First we need them to realize their sense that our core intuition is based on some desire for totalitarianism is retarded.

Having two-tier raises basically turns CUPE workers into glorified temporary workers, since there’s no incentive to stick around.  The experienced people who haven’t received substantial increases in many years are being sent a message that their experience won’t be remunerated.  It means that when CUPE workers have worked several years and want to start a family and buy a home, they may not be able to do this if they remain CUPE employees.

[I am Groot]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well I suppose we could acknowledge that dealing with labour is not a new thing, and there's no reason to use draconian constitutional suspension to manage this.

Do you think previous governments never legislated them back to work or passed bills preventing strikes? They did. What is new is that the Supreme Court changed the constitution to make such legislation illegal.

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Lower wages are good for productivity too.  Fifty years ago there was a lot less disparity between wealthy and workers, and the lions share of GDP increases have gone to investors. 

If we want higher wages then why not pay childcare workers more? Their wages will go quickly to other Canadians not offshore accounts.

Capitalism says that we pay what is needed to obtain enough workers. In that way we establish the proper economic value of a given job. Doing an end run around that with government imposed minimum wages and flooding the system with foreign workers only harms society in the end. I might add that government paying people more than they need to obtain a given number of workers with a given skillset also distorts their value.