Ontario’s bill to stop CUPE strike

[Dougie93]

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

I highly doubt KRS-1 or any of the other SJW revolutionaries in that video would ever vote Conservative just in order to get rid of a progressive government like Kathleen Wynne

I don't put much stock in voting tho

it's merely a safety valve, it doesn't solve problems

[Dougie93]

11 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

 In fact he’d probably tell you something like the bible and lines like “love your enemy” are all part of the oppressors plot to get subjugated people to accept their oppression. 

but "love thine enemies" is to save yourself

to save yourself from the devil inside you

so you can be calm, at peace, and thus enjoy life

[BeaverFever]

10 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Are you saying there aren't enough out of work teachers?

Huh?

[BeaverFever]

10 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

responsible steward of taxpayers’ contributions.

I just want to point out that despite being the longest serving premier since the turn of the 20th century, in his 14 years as premier he never once balanced a budget. And he’s still considered to be one of the greatest premiers. Why? Because he built a legacy:  schools, universities, highways, public transit, the entire community college system, he wasn’t a miser who clutched his purse and said no to everything like we’ve had at every level of government since that time. He was spender and a builder and that was a good thing. And we’ve squandered the legacy of people  him

[BeaverFever]

22 hours ago, I am Groot said:

We generally don't care. If the employer offers you too little for your time then you refuse to work for that employer.

I think that’s a short-sighted attitude attitude to have especially for jobs that society needs and doesn’t plan to get rid of.  Basically you’re demanding that a segment of the workforce must always be struggling. As I’ve been saying recently on a couple of threads that’s been the prevailing attitude of the last  few decades and explains why so many people have become disenchanted with society and democracy and have turned to populism. 

 

 

22 hours ago, I am Groot said:

The province is driving a hard bargain because it's broke

No, the province is not broke. There’s currently a budget surplus which is expected to continue until 2028. 
 

22 hours ago, I am Groot said:

in a province which already pays considerably more for its employees than the private sector.

Even where true - and it’s not always true - I think people are done with this “race to bottom”  line of argument claiming that we must join the private sector in driving down wages.  I don’t think it’s an outrage that public employees still have adequate pension plans.   I think its an outrage that the rest of us no longer do  

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by BeaverFever

[BeaverFever]

18 hours ago, I am Groot said:

The whole point of raising interest rates is to slow the economy by making consumers and business spend less. If the government simply bumps up everyone's wages to match inflation then no one will care that interest rates have risen and will continue their previous spending habits. You only respond to such things when it cuts into your disposable income.

This is why all that extra borrowed money Trudeau is sending out is actually fighting the Bank of Canada's efforts to suppress inflation.

Inflation is not going to be driven upwards in spite of interest rate increases  by raises to a small number of workers who currently earn between 39,000 and 60,000 per year  

 

 

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Huh?

Over ur head Beave?

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

I think that’s a short-sighted attitude attitude to have especially for jobs that society needs and doesn’t plan to get rid of.  Basically you’re demanding that a segment of the workforce mist always be struggling. As I’ve been saying recently on a couple of threads that’s been the prevailing attitude of the last  few decades and explains why so many people have become disenchanted with society and democracy and have turned to populism. 

 

 

No, the province is not broke. There’s currently a budget surplus which is expected to continue until 2028. 
 

Even where true - and it’s not always true - I think people are done with all this “race to bottom”  line of argument that we must join the private sector in driving down wages.  I don’t think it’s an outrage that public employees still have adequate pension plans.   I think its an outrage that the rest of us no longer do  

 

Well for sure unions have driven up wages for all.  They’re necessary.  They’re also part of the reason that Japan really took over the auto industry from the Yanks in the 80’s.  The US/Canadian big three collective agreements became too expensive.  There needs to be a reasonable balance.  Davis didn’t drive up the debt anything like the federal Liberals or Mulroney’s federal Conservatives.   Some debt is manageable if necessary, but when rates rise and suddenly 20-30% of your budget is wasted on servicing debt charges, that’s mismanagement.  

Edited November 6, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[BeaverFever]

2 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Over ur head Beave?

Your post makes no sense as a response to mine. 

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

They’re also part of the reason that Japan really took over the auto industry from the Yanks in the 80’s.  The US/Canadian big three collective agreements became too expensive.

Is that accurate?  I remember from the anti-union culture wars that broke out after the Great Recession that:

1) In Japan , the Japanese automakers’ entire workforce is unionized including many/most management.  Same in German auto industry, FWIW. Also IIRC in Japan, something like “jobs for life” type arrangements are common where they retrain and redeploy workers instead of lay them off and even hire new university graduates when there are no immediate job openings 

2) In Canada, jobs at the Japanese automakers’ factories, which are non-Unionized, are comparable in pay and compensation to the unionized North American Big 3, which they’ve admitted is deliberately meant to stay competitive with the unionized Big 3 and discourage employees from unionizing. While Im sure there are many advantages and efficiencies associated with a union-free workforce it sounded like compensation is not a big factor in the NA auto sector

Edited November 6, 2022 by BeaverFever

[Michael Hardner]

15 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Is that accurate?  

I would say there were a number of factors, and the high wages in manufacturing was one of them but as you point out those wages were more or less high across the board. Any of us who worked in corporate in the 1980s might remember the courses we all had to take in Japanese management techniques, and top to bottom quality management out of Japan was the big reason that they could drive efficiency and quality above American management techniques.

[ExFlyer]

Back to CUPE and the dispute. I posted this in another rhtread

Here are some facts:

"Ford has been cutting education, a false premise - In the 2017-18 school year, there were 125,980 teachers plus 9,054 early childhood educators overseeing 2,020,301 students. Now we have 130,923 teachers, plus 10,072 early childhood educators for a student population of 2,025,258. We’ve gone 16.1 students per teacher in 2018 to 15.4 last year and the government is still hiring more people.

In 2017-18, the total education budget was $29 billion, it’s now more than $32 billion with spending increasing every year and hiring increasing every year as enrolment is flat.

CUPE’s initial ask was for 11.7% annual increases for three years, the government’s offer was 2% per year for four years. The government came up to 2.5% for the lowest paid workers and 1.5% per year for those making less than $43,000 per year.

the idea that CUPE workers only earn $39,000 a year, that is utterly false. It depends on the job, the skill level and whether the worker is full-time or part-time. CUPE has a lot of part-time workers who, according to their contracts, work six hours a day for 194 days a year. Once holidays, PD days and March Break are factored in, that’s a 10 month-a-year part-time job.

This is why hourly wages are the better comparison.

The maintenance staff represented by CUPE in the Toronto District School Board earn between $20.82/hour for a part-time cleaner, up to $42.23/hour for a building automation specialist. Head caretakers earn between $30 and $35/hour."

There is more, read the entire piece.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-facts-dont-back-up-school-union-claims-on-wages-or-cuts-to-education

[I am Groot]

5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Inflation is not going to be driven upwards in spite of interest rate increases  by raises to a small number of workers who currently earn between 39,000 and 60,000 per year  

Don't be disingenuous. You know very well this is the first of a series of such requests and that caving on this one would require caving on the rest.

[I am Groot]

5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

I think that’s a short-sighted attitude attitude to have especially for jobs that society needs and doesn’t plan to get rid of.

No, it's a logical attitude. And it works every time. If the jobs are needed then society will just have to raise the wages until it attracts sufficient people to them.

5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

 Basically you’re demanding that a segment of the workforce must always be struggling.

There will always be a bell curve of success, outstanding success, and failure in any human endeavor based upon the characteristics of the people involved. Not everyone is going to be a home run champion. Even most of those who reach the majors rarely last long. That's the way the world works.

5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

As I’ve been saying recently on a couple of threads that’s been the prevailing attitude of the last  few decades and explains why so many people have become disenchanted with society and democracy and have turned to populism. 

Disagree. Never in history has life been easier for those who fail. Society has never done more for them to make them feel better about themselves and make their lives more comfortable. What explains populism is a sense of entitlement. The more people are given the more they expect. Gratitude? What's that? How dare you not give me more of your money, you greedy filth! 

5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

No, the province is not broke. There’s currently a budget surplus which is expected to continue until 2028. 

The surplus is based on a temporary economic benefit of inflation, one which has also benefited the federal government. It won't happen again. And no one who owes as much as Ontario does can be called well-off, especially as the cost of paying for loans has just shot up multiple times over what it was a year ago. Anything we borrow now is going to cost a lot in servicing costs. As will older loans we roll over.

5 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Even where true - and it’s not always true - I think people are done with this “race to bottom”  line of argument claiming that we must join the private sector in driving down wages.  I don’t think it’s an outrage that public employees still have adequate pension plans.   I think its an outrage that the rest of us no longer do  

Pensions and pay rates are entirely different creatures. A job should pay whatever it requires to fill it with a competent employee and no more. And if it weren't for the bloody Liberals driving wages down by flooding the place with foreign workers and immigrants you'd have seen better pay rates years ago.

[BeaverFever]

42 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Don't be disingenuous. You know very well this is the first of a series of such requests and that caving on this one would require caving on the rest.

It wouldn’t “require” anything. 

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

Is that accurate?  I remember from the anti-union culture wars that broke out after the Great Recession that:

1) In Japan , the Japanese automakers’ entire workforce is unionized including many/most management.  Same in German auto industry, FWIW. Also IIRC in Japan, something like “jobs for life” type arrangements are common where they retrain and redeploy workers instead of lay them off and even hire new university graduates when there are no immediate job openings 

2) In Canada, jobs at the Japanese automakers’ factories, which are non-Unionized, are comparable in pay and compensation to the unionized North American Big 3, which they’ve admitted is deliberately meant to stay competitive with the unionized Big 3 and discourage employees from unionizing. While Im sure there are many advantages and efficiencies associated with a union-free workforce it sounded like compensation is not a big factor in the NA auto sector

It’s not a big issue anymore for the big 3, but it was.  Workers could do their quotas of work within a few hours then have someone punch them out at 8 hours.  The Japanese companies didn’t have that going on, which is why the big 3 stopped giving those gold-plated contracts to new hires.  They grandfathered the old benefits, essentially scaling it all back.  

[I am Groot]

44 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

It wouldn’t “require” anything. 

You think any of the other unions would settle for less? They'd either have to pay them the same or endure a long strike or use the notwithstanding clause anyway.

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

You think any of the other unions would settle for less? They'd either have to pay them the same or endure a long strike or use the notwithstanding clause anyway.

Well teachers didn’t have it as bad as the secretaries, who haven’t seen decent increases in years.  It’s tricky though, because CUPE has different employees who aren’t necessarily deserving of the same remuneration.  I’m not sure custodians are as deserving of increases as the secretaries.  The 10 month employee thing applies to secretaries but not most custodians, for example.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

No, it's a logical attitude. And it works every time. If the jobs are needed then society will just have to raise the wages until it attracts sufficient people to them.

You’re baking in poverty to society then. And do you notice how you only apply this logic to the labour side of the equation?  How come we the people don’t only allow corporations to earn the minimum profits required to provide their goods and services to the public via price controls and taxes?  Its a man-made rule created by elites that says we should only apply controls and render judgment on the labour side of the equation. 
 

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

There will always be a bell curve of success, outstanding success, and failure in any human endeavor based upon the characteristics of the people involved. Not everyone is going to be a home run champion. Even most of those who reach the majors rarely last long. That's the way the world works.

No, that’s the way neoliberalism works. There’s no reason we can’t ensure a minimum standard of living, especially for those who provide essential services that we want and value. There’s no rule of nature that says income distribution should exactly follow distribution of ability, instead of say value to society. 

 

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

Disagree. Never in history has life been easier for those who fail. Society has never done more for them to make them feel better about themselves and make their lives more comfortable. What explains populism is a sense of entitlement. The more people are given the more they expect. Gratitude? What's that? How dare you not give me more of your money, you greedy filth! 

I don’t think that’s accurate at all.  By almost any objective measure, over the last several decades necessities like a home and a post-seondary education have been much more expensive and stable good paying jobs have been much more difficult to obtain and to keep. People have been forced to move and/or change employers repeatedly, pensions and retiree benefits have basically completely disappeared from the private second. People are working longer hours than ever before while kids are left to languish in expensive daycares while parents work late with virtually no recognition by employers or governments  of the financial and personal toll this takes on families and children. I could go on: household debt, overcrowded classrooms and hospitals etc. 

 

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

The surplus is based on a temporary economic benefit of inflation, one which has also benefited the federal government. It won't happen again. And no one who owes as much as Ontario does can be called well-off, especially as the cost of paying for loans has just shot up multiple times over what it was a year ago. Anything we borrow now is going to cost a lot in servicing costs. As will older loans we roll over.

Ontario is not a person, it is a government so the comparison to someone “who owes as much debt” is false. As for the increased cost of paying off debt as you say in first breath the conditions are temporary. Besides as the economy grows so does the ability to pay debt over the long term. 
 

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

Pensions and pay rates are entirely different creatures. A job should pay whatever it requires to fill it with a competent employee and no more. And if it weren't for the bloody Liberals driving wages down by flooding the place with foreign workers and immigrants you'd have seen better pay rates years ago.

I was using pension as an example but it’s all the cost of compensation whether you count salaries or all benefits. The statement that the “Liberals drive down wages by flooding the place with foreign workers and immigrants” is just stock nonsmoking. Immigration doesn’t drive down wages, “the place” is not “flooded” by immigrants and foreign workers, and the Liberals aren’t uniquely or especially responsible for immigration.   But maybe if employers paid higher wages Canadians would be attracted to their work and they wouldn’t be seeking to hire foreign workers. 

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well teachers didn’t have it as bad as the secretaries, who haven’t seen decent increases in years.  It’s tricky though, because CUPE has different employees who aren’t necessarily deserving of the same remuneration.  I’m not sure custodians are as deserving of increases as the secretaries.  The 10 month employee thing applies to secretaries but not most custodians, for example.

the ideologically based cost of living crisis incited by all the political parties is the root of the problem

in general, Canadians need to be able to afford to keep up with inflation

a 2.5% pay raise is simply not sufficient to keep up with 10% inflation

doesn't really matter what workers deserve or do not deserve

if middle class workers are going to be rendered into bankruptcy en masse by an inflationary debt crisis

all heck is going to break loose whether we like it or not

[BeaverFever]

16 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s not a big issue anymore for the big 3, but it was.  Workers could do their quotas of work within a few hours then have someone punch them out at 8 hours.  

Is that accurate? That sounds like time theft and not something that would be permitted in a bargaining contract.  And if workers could meet their daily quota in a few hours but receive a full day’s pay then the employer is an incompetent negotiator. Considering how effective they’ve been ant taking away benefits and wages and laying off workers over the years, I somehow doubt that. 

[BeaverFever]

21 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

You think any of the other unions would settle for less? They'd either have to pay them the same or endure a long strike or use the notwithstanding clause anyway.

That’s why they’re negotiated separately   The unions are not all in the same situation and they represent very different people.   The government could save its ammo for a group with a less compelling case. 

[Zeitgeist]

21 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Is that accurate? That sounds like time theft and not something that would be permitted in a bargaining contract.  And if workers could meet their daily quota in a few hours but receive a full day’s pay then the employer is an incompetent negotiator. Considering how effective they’ve been ant taking away benefits and wages and laying off workers over the years, I somehow doubt that. 

It was common practice.  Management didn’t take it on because the union became too powerful.  That can happen.  Look at how organized crime and the Teamsters became bedfellows.

Eventually GM had to almost hand the keys over to the union and say, If you want to have a domestic auto industry, you’re going to have to keep us competitive, so now it’s on you to devise a plan.  Unions have become quasi-senior management in some sectors, with costly dues and perks.  It’s better now than it was.

Again, unions play an important role and there are good reasons for demanding more compensation, especially with a fast-rising cost of living.  Government has to communicate the reasons why they can’t simply give away the farm with recession looming.  Higher wages will drive up inflation too, so managing inflation with higher wages could drive up interest rates further.  Moderation is critical.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[BeaverFever]

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Back to CUPE and the dispute. I posted this in another rhtread

Here are some facts:

"Ford has been cutting education, a false premise - In the 2017-18 school year, there were 125,980 teachers plus 9,054 early childhood educators overseeing 2,020,301 students. Now we have 130,923 teachers, plus 10,072 early childhood educators for a student population of 2,025,258. We’ve gone 16.1 students per teacher in 2018 to 15.4 last year and the government is still hiring more people.

In 2017-18, the total education budget was $29 billion, it’s now more than $32 billion with spending increasing every year and hiring increasing every year as enrolment is flat.

CUPE’s initial ask was for 11.7% annual increases for three years, the government’s offer was 2% per year for four years. The government came up to 2.5% for the lowest paid workers and 1.5% per year for those making less than $43,000 per year.

the idea that CUPE workers only earn $39,000 a year, that is utterly false. It depends on the job, the skill level and whether the worker is full-time or part-time. CUPE has a lot of part-time workers who, according to their contracts, work six hours a day for 194 days a year. Once holidays, PD days and March Break are factored in, that’s a 10 month-a-year part-time job.

This is why hourly wages are the better comparison.

The maintenance staff represented by CUPE in the Toronto District School Board earn between $20.82/hour for a part-time cleaner, up to $42.23/hour for a building automation specialist. Head caretakers earn between $30 and $35/hour."

There is more, read the entire piece.

https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-facts-dont-back-up-school-union-claims-on-wages-or-cuts-to-education

So?

Besides those are some pretty selective facts. “Spending” also includes covid related spending and “increasing hiring” includes filling all the vacant roles due to the massive wave of retirements since the start of the pandemic. The editorial also suggests PD days are days off but they are actually work days
 

Am I supposed  rage that a building automation specialist or head caretaker don’t “deserve” their hourly wage?

[Zeitgeist]

27 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

You’re baking in poverty to society then. And do you notice how you only apply this logic to the labour side of the equation?  How come we the people don’t only allow corporations to earn the minimum profits required to provide their goods and services to the public via price controls and taxes?  Its a man-made rule created by elites that says we should only apply controls and render judgment on the labour side of the equation. 
 

No, that’s the way neoliberalism works. There’s no reason we can’t ensure a minimum standard of living, especially for those who provide essential services that we want and value. There’s no rule of nature that says income distribution should exactly follow distribution of ability, instead of say value to society. 

 

I don’t think that’s accurate at all.  By almost any objective measure, over the last several decades necessities like a home and a post-seondary education have been much more expensive and stable good paying jobs have been much more difficult to obtain and to keep. People have been forced to move and/or change employers repeatedly, pensions and retiree benefits have basically completely disappeared from the private second. People are working longer hours than ever before while kids are left to languish in expensive daycares while parents work late with virtually no recognition by employers or governments  of the financial and personal toll this takes on families and children. I could go on: household debt, overcrowded classrooms and hospitals etc. 

 

Ontario is not a person, it is a government so the comparison to someone “who owes as much debt” is false. As for the increased cost of paying off debt as you say in first breath the conditions are temporary. Besides as the economy grows so does the ability to pay debt over the long term. 
 

I was using pension as an example but it’s all the cost of compensation whether you count salaries or all benefits. The statement that the “Liberals drive down wages by flooding the place with foreign workers and immigrants” is just stock nonsmoking. Immigration doesn’t drive down wages, “the place” is not “flooded” by immigrants and foreign workers, and the Liberals aren’t uniquely or especially responsible for immigration.   But maybe if employers paid higher wages Canadians would be attracted to their work and they wouldn’t be seeking to hire foreign workers. 

Yes the place is absolutely flooded with immigrants.  500,000 a year for a country of 38 million is significant.  70% of them come to Southern Ontario, which drives up home prices significantly.  I’m for targeted immigration, but this government relies on it for growth without recognizing the impacts on infrastructure, housing, and cost of living.  It’s an attempt to pay today’s bills with tomorrow’s development charges   It’s lazy and leads to social cohesion problems as new class and cultural conflicts arise from too much change too soon.  But that’s another debate.

On the labour front I agree that corporations and elites continue to rake in record profits and often use inflation as an excuse to drive prices higher, but price controls can cause other problems.  Has the federal government reduced taxes?  They could make gas ten percent cheaper overnight by lifting carbon taxes.

Public pressure helps and consumer watchdogs can up their games, publishing information about which companies are upping their prices.  Consumers need to be empowered.

Also remember that the private sector employees generally resent the public sector ones because of pension and job security.   Public opinion can turn against unions fast if it looks like the public purse is being robbed.  Moderation is critical.