Ontario’s bill to stop CUPE strike

[Nationalist]

10 hours ago, Aristides said:

I'm saying Ford has no plan B in case bullying doesn't work and neither do you.  How long do you think it would take to train thousands of new employees, especially if they are new immigrants who don't even speak English or French?

I don't know. Neither do you. But I'm pretty sure there's enough people who speak English and would love a full-time job with benefits and 3 months off every year.

[I am Groot]

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

But nobody questions the employer’s terms and whether they are reasonable in the first place.

We generally don't care. If the employer offers you too little for your time then you refuse to work for that employer. We're not in a period where it's difficult to find alternate work. if they offer too little and you think you're worth more find a better job. Shouldn't be hard - if you actually are worth more than that particular employer is offering.

Those of us who are reasonably successful in life - at least career wise - have quit jobs multiple times to do better elsewhere.

Contrarily, if the employer is not offering enough for that job to attract capable workers then the employer will have to raise their pay. Or in Canada whine to the government to let it bring in temporary foreign workers, like the tech, hospitality, and restaurant industries do.

2 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

They’re just assumed to be some immutable fact or force of nature. If it’s true that now is the worst time for labour disruption then why is the province driving such a hard bargain? It takes 2 to tango. 

The province is driving a hard bargain because it's broke and because there is a line of eager public sector unions standing behind this particular group with dollar signs in their eyes. The teachers being foremost among that group. If the province is generous to these people then everyone else will demand the same or better generosity and billions will be added to the public sector payroll in a province which already pays considerably more for its employees than the private sector.

Edited November 5, 2022 by I am Groot

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

Teachers and education workers are probably not driving a wage-price spiral because prices don’t have to increase to cover increases in their pay.  Governments don’t necessarily have to increase taxes to cover increases in expenditure and Educator salaries would only account for a small portion of overall taxes and taxes aren’t exactly the same as prices anyway. 

The whole point of raising interest rates is to slow the economy by making consumers and business spend less. If the government simply bumps up everyone's wages to match inflation then no one will care that interest rates have risen and will continue their previous spending habits. You only respond to such things when it cuts into your disposable income.

This is why all that extra borrowed money Trudeau is sending out is actually fighting the Bank of Canada's efforts to suppress inflation.

Edited November 5, 2022 by I am Groot

[I am Groot]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes and it goes further.  The government has added to educators’ workloads with various tutoring programs in the name of filling the gaps left by the pandemic, but educators were already exhausted and trying to restore normalcy.

Please explain why educators are exhausted after two years of mostly staying home and conducting classes over the internet. No commutes and fewer disciplinary issues should not have overly exhausted them.

Edited November 5, 2022 by I am Groot

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, Nationalist said:

I don't know. Neither do you. But I'm pretty sure there's enough people who speak English and would love a full-time job with benefits and 3 months off every year.

A lot of these jobs require some training and education, for example Educational Assistants. 

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, BeaverFever said:

A lot of these jobs require some training and education, for example Educational Assistants. 

Looking after a building and all its HVAC, electrical and water systems is not unskilled work.

[Dougie93]

I will admit that I voted for Doug Ford

mostly just in desperation to get rid of the Liberals and their agenda inciting a cost of living crisis

but I cannot support the use of Section 33 to deny workers the right to strike

this is just another case of governments in this country invoking extreme legislation without due justification

[Dougie93]

On 11/1/2022 at 10:00 AM, Michael Hardner said:

It's unprecedented because the Ontario Government is doing something that was ruled unconstitutional - removing the right to strike... this for workers who make less than $40K... and using the NOTWITHSTANDING clause to pass it

If you care about constitutionality then you should be against this, because the Liberals will be happy to do unconstituional things if Ontarians let this pass, once they get back in.  Like a 100%+ income tax... 

normally I would not protest on behalf of CUPE

but the invocation of Section 33 simply to crush collective bargaining rights is so extreme

in this case I will make an exception, on principle alone

[Dougie93]

civil war for the soul of our nation

this is the struggle to save civilization

love thine enemies, Jesus of Nazareth said

[Zeitgeist]

5 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Please explain why educators are exhausted after two years of mostly staying home and conducting classes over the internet. No commutes and fewer disciplinary issues should not have overly exhausted them.

You don’t know the toll then of trying to keep students online and on camera and engaged with lessons and accountable for work all day, especially as many of these workers had their own kids online in the other room.  The switches to in-person learning were worrisome as they were for all essential workers.  But the teachers aren’t CUPE workers.  CUPE is secretaries, custodians, and for some boards also educational assistants who work with special needs students.

We could have a discussion about the decline of education into blatant indoctrination and I’d agree that education is totally politicized.   However, I know how hard the secretaries and many of these employees work.  Union protections have been eroded and these workers did what they were told throughout the pandemic.

The bottom line is that they are doing the daily grind that has to be done to run education, just like healthcare workers or people who work in grocery stores.  If they don’t deserve decent pay, who does?  The investment bankers, lawyers, and senior government bureaucrats?  Shit runs downhill, and the frontline workers are covered in it.

Edited November 5, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

I will admit that I voted for Doug Ford

mostly just in desperation to get rid of the Liberals and their agenda inciting a cost of living crisis

but I cannot support the use of Section 33 to deny workers the right to strike

this is just another case of governments in this country invoking extreme legislation without due justification

Doug could still pull through, but he needs to talk to these groups plainly and not have any hidden agenda.  Lay out the economic facts while also recognizing the low increases CUPE has had.  Be an honest broker then leave it in CUPE’s hands.  If after that the strike continues, it won’t last once public opinion shifts against labour, but right now I think many people are somewhat sympathetic to CUPE.

[Dougie93]

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The bottom line is that they are doing the daily grind that has to be done to run education, just like healthcare workers or people who work in grocery stores.  If they don’t deserve decent pay, who does?  The investment bankers, lawyers, and senior government bureaucrats?  Shit runs downhill, and the frontline workers are covered in it.

Christian conservatives

Jesus of Nazareth would never side with the governments & corporations

against the desperate trying to pay the rent

Jesus of Nazareth rounded upon the money lenders in the temple, in righteous fury

 

[I am Groot]

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You don’t know the toll then of trying to keep students online and on camera and engaged with lessons and accountable for work all day, especially as many of these workers had their own kids online in the other room.

All of those students had adult supervision nearby, or were old enough to realize if they didn't pay attention they'd fail their tests. It's likely pretty hard trying to keep them engaged at the best of times anyway given how boring most school lessons are.

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 The switches to in-person learning were worrisome as they were for all essential workers.  But the teachers aren’t CUPE workers.  CUPE is secretaries, custodians, and for some boards also educational assistants who work with special needs students.

Which means they simply took the two years off with pay, right?

5 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

The bottom line is that they are doing the daily grind that has to be done to run education, just like healthcare workers or people who work in grocery stores.  If they don’t deserve decent pay, who does?  The investment bankers, lawyers, and senior government bureaucrats?  Shit runs downhill, and the frontline workers are covered in it.

There's that 'deserve' word I keep hearing so often these days. But I don't believe workers deserve any kind of pay but what their skills and the scarcity of those skills can command. If they feel they can make more money elsewhere more power to them. Our public sector people, as a general rule, make way more money than their private sector counterparts and I'm not eager to set an example all the rest, including the teachers would seize upon to demand fat pay raises.

And no doubt CUPE members lost whatever sympathy they'd have had from the PC government when their Marxist leaders (who still support Venezuela) declared themselves to be the 'real resistance' to the Ford government before it was even sworn in.

[Dougie93]

12 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Doug could still pull through, but he needs to talk to these groups plainly and not have any hidden agenda.  Lay out the economic facts while also recognizing the low increases CUPE has had.  Be an honest broker then leave it in CUPE’s hands.  If after that the strike continues, it won’t last once public opinion shifts against labour, but right now I think many people are somewhat sympathetic to CUPE.

Doug Ford is no honest broker

he sided with Justin Trudeau to crush decorated Canadian veterans upon Parliament Hill

now he turns upon the lowest paid workers

God is mercy for the righteous

 judgment for the wicked

rise up, yonder Christians

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

normally I would not protest on behalf of CUPE

but the invocation of Section 33 simply to crush collective bargaining rights is so extreme

in this case I will make an exception, on principle alone

I highly doubt KRS-1 or any of the other SJW revolutionaries in that video would ever vote Conservative just in order to get rid of a progressive government like Kathleen Wynne

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

civil war for the soul of our nation

this is the struggle to save civilization

love thine enemies, Jesus of Nazareth said

I also enjoy Immortal Technique but he sure don’t love his enemies or quote the bible. In fact he’d probably tell you something like the bible and lines like “love your enemy” are all part of the oppressors plot to get subjugated people to accept their oppression. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by BeaverFever

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, BeaverFever said:

I also enjoy Immortal Technique but he sure don’t love his enemies or quote the bible. In fact he’d probably tell you something like the bible and lines like “love your enemy” are all part of the oppressors plot to get subjugated people to accept their oppression. 

Jesus of Nazareth was castigated by the mob as he was led to crucifixion at Golgotha

He loved them none the less

thus how the power of Christ compels me to love mine enemies, even as they nail me to the cross

[BeaverFever]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Doug could still pull through, but he needs to talk to these groups plainly and not have any hidden agenda.  Lay out the economic facts while also recognizing the low increases CUPE has had.  Be an honest broker then leave it in CUPE’s hands.  If after that the strike continues, it won’t last once public opinion shifts against labour, but right now I think many people are somewhat sympathetic to CUPE.

The problem is that Conservatives don’t believe workers should have the right to unionize or that unions should have the right to strike or that employees should be forced to bargain with their employees. Since the time of the very first worker collectives, the Conservative parties have only believed that if you don’t like your job you should quit and go work someplace else.  This makes it very difficult for them to follow the advice above.
 

Despite what I’ve said above, the Ontario Conservative party used to actually understand this, having basically governed Ontario continuously for pretty much the first 4 decades of the post-ww2 era. This was due in large part to their mastery of political brokerage between Ontarios many diverse industrial and social interest groups. But the days of great conservative premiers ended with Bill Davis and now all they seem to produce are angry and heavy-handed hardliners like Harris and Ford. 

Edited November 5, 2022 by BeaverFever

[BeaverFever]

7 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Jesus of Nazareth was castigated by the mob as he was led to crucifixion at Golgotha

He loved them none the less

thus how the power of Christ compels me to love mine enemies, even as they nail me to the cross

Boy you’ll never hear that from KRS or Immortal !

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

Boy you’ll never hear that from KRS or Immortal !

I am none the less driven by a supernatural force, like a mountain at my back, to turn the other cheek

[ExFlyer]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

You don’t know the toll then of trying to keep students online and on camera and engaged with lessons and accountable for work all day, especially as many of these workers had their own kids online in the other room.  T....

These are admin staff, clerks, office staff and custodial staff and assistants. Not teachers.

[ExFlyer]

38 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

The problem is that Conservatives don’t believe workers should have the right to unionize or that unions should have the right to strike ....

Fact is, it was the conservatives that introduced the Trade Union Act on April 18, 1872.

Conservatives have been the union friend since.

https://canadianlabour.ca/uncategorized/why-unions-history-labour-canada/#short-week

Edited November 5, 2022 by ExFlyer

[Zeitgeist]

40 minutes ago, BeaverFever said:

The problem is that Conservatives don’t believe workers should have the right to unionize or that unions should have the right to strike or that employees should be forced to bargain with their employees. Since the time of the very first worker collectives, the Conservative parties have only believed that if you don’t like your job you should quit and go work someplace else.  This makes it very difficult for them to follow the advice above.
 

Despite what I’ve said above, the Ontario Conservative party used to actually understand this, having basically governed Ontario continuously for pretty much the first 4 decades of the post-ww2 era. This was due in large part to their mastery of political brokerage between Ontarios many diverse industrial and social interest groups. But the days of great conservative premiers ended with Bill Davis and now all they seem to produce are angry and heavy-handed hardliners like Harris and Ford. 

Bill Davis is really the gold standard.  I don’t think he thought much about party alliance except in terms of being a responsible steward of taxpayers’ contributions.

There’s nothing wrong with Ford being fiscally conservative if he can explain the long-term benefits and the importance of keeping our powder dry going into probable recession.

Having said that, real bones should be thrown to CUPE on the understanding that we’re all taking a haircut and more sacrifice may be asked.  Good politicians communicate sensible, fair-minded policies.  Lecce sounds like a phoney when he talks about quality education.  Of course everyone wants quality education.  

Edited November 5, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Nationalist]

6 hours ago, BeaverFever said:

A lot of these jobs require some training and education, for example Educational Assistants. 

Are you saying there aren't enough out of work teachers?

[Dougie93]

44 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Bill Davis is really the gold standard. 

the times made the man

there was middle ground then

Glenn Gould's Toronto the Good predated Marshal McLuhan's information war

magnificent as they both may be