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Pax Americana


August1991

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Since 1989, when the Berlin Wall fell, America has ruled the world.

Europeans have had peace for the past 70 years - since 1945, in the living memory of most Europeans.

Can Americans sustain this world peace?

====

Many Americans believe in Pax Britannica, a creation of the 1815 Congress of Vienna. Kissinger did, in a way.

Edited by August1991
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After 1815, when civilised European States finally sent Napoleon abroad, Europe largely had peace for the next 100 years - until it commit suicide in the summer of 1914.

There were many arguments, uprisings, revolts between 1815 and 1914 - but people largely got along.

Since 1989, can America offer the rest of us the same?

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4 hours ago, Contrarian said:

They might need to let go of certain control in Europe which they are not ready to do just yet. 

France - Germany, old Europe, want their own, Americans -> and they have a somewhat point here, for now, in my view fear if they allow this, it might lead to closer relationship for the European Union with Russia. 

New Europe, the wing led by Poland, do not want to hear about this scenario and stand only with the Americans really. 

I think if American policy thinkers will eventually decide they need to step back in Europe, there will be issues for New Europe maintaining the same line. 

Errr...

Quote

PRAGUE, Sept 3 (Reuters) - An estimated 70,000 people protested in Prague against the Czech government on Saturday, calling on the ruling coalition to do more to control soaring energy prices and voicing opposition to the European Union and NATO.

 

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6 hours ago, Nationalist said:

PRAGUE, Sept 3 (Reuters) - An estimated 70,000 people protested in Prague against the Czech government on Saturday, calling on the ruling coalition to do more to control soaring energy prices and voicing opposition to the European Union and NATO.

Years ago during the "solidarity protests" in Vancouver two people at the front of the crowd carried signs that said 'Lesbian Mothers Against the Budget'. I'm sure modern right leaning papers would've ran the headline "Tens of Thousands Protest for Gay Adoption Rights in Vancouver".

They were protesting inflationary prices, and not just on fuel.

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34 minutes ago, herbie said:

Years ago during the "solidarity protests" in Vancouver two people at the front of the crowd carried signs that said 'Lesbian Mothers Against the Budget'. I'm sure modern right leaning papers would've ran the headline "Tens of Thousands Protest for Gay Adoption Rights in Vancouver".

They were protesting inflationary prices, and not just on fuel.

Indeed. And?

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On 10/18/2022 at 10:44 AM, Moonbox said:

I don't really understand what point you're trying to make with this thread....

Moonbox,

Your post terrifies me.

===

For the good of us all, you Americans dropped two bombs on Japanese cities.

For the good of us all, you Americans fought in Vietnam/Korea and the Soviet Union lost.

But now, America is not the police force of the world.

 

Edited by August1991
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7 hours ago, August1991 said:

Moonbox,

Your post terrifies me.

I don't understand your OP and what you're even trying to say.  That terrifies you?   ?

7 hours ago, August1991 said:

For the good of us all, you Americans dropped two bombs on Japanese cities.

For the good of us all, you Americans fought in Vietnam/Korea and the Soviet Union lost.

But now, America is not the police force of the world.

I'm not American, and don't think dropping two bombs on Japan was good for necessary or good for anyone considering Japan was already finished.  Japan notably surrendered after the Soviet Union declared war on them, rather than after they were bombed. 

The Americans lost the Vietnam war, and managed a stalemate in Korea. 

American is still (by far) the largest military in the world and that status has probably been cemented by the revelation that Russia's is a hollow, ineffective force.  

So I have to ask, what are you trying to say in this thread, specifically?  

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Point of interest...

In late September, both Nordstream pipelines were sabotaged. For about a week there was lots of news coverage. Germany, Sweden and Denmark launched a joint investigation. Jeffery Sachs, a world renowned economist and professor, postulates that the Americans did it. The Russians fixed one of the lines. Then...almost as abruptly as it began...the news of this went cold.

So just who done it? Well, lets follow the money.

Shortly after the news dried up, America began exporting NatGas and oil to Germany...at wildly inflated prices. So inflated, in fact, that Germany has started complaining about the price gouging.

So...who done it? They'll never say. Which in itself is rather condemning to the USA.

I guess the obvious question now is...

Anyone else miss Trump...right about now?

Edited by Nationalist
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10 hours ago, August1991 said:

I think this is the start to understand America.

You didn't lose the "Vietnam War".

You Americans fought a battle in Vietnam and won the Cold War.

I really don't understand what you're saying.  I'm not American.  

Saigon fell.  Vietnam has been a communist state ever since.  China (the major regional power) is also communist.  The Americans lost the war in Vietnam because they were never going to commit the lives and resources necessary to fight millions of communists there. 

Anyways, I still don't really get what you're trying communicate in this thread.  

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2 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Point of interest...

In late September, both Nordstream pipelines were sabotaged. For about a week there was lots of news coverage. Germany, Sweden and Denmark launched a joint investigation. Jeffery Sachs, a world renowned economist and professor, postulates that the Americans did it. The Russians fixed one of the lines. Then...almost as abruptly as it began...the news of this went cold.

Point of interest on your point of interest. 

Nordstream 1 was running at 25% capacity as of June.  As of August, it was completely shut down, with the Russians citing "maintenance" (though we know it was retaliation for sanctions and EU support for Ukraine).  By September 26, when the pipeline was blown, neither Nordstream pipeline hadn't been transporting any natural gas for over a month and the EU had already firmly committed to anti-Russian sanctions and weaning themselves off Russian gas.  

Jeffery Sachs' theory went cold because he provided no evidence for it, like he does with a lot of stuff he says.  Like with his claims of COVID-19 coming from Chinese bioweapon labs, he is more than happy to promote theories that cannot be supported.  This is why his economic "renown' is much diminished from 15-20 years ago, since the implementation of his economic theories have generally led to disaster around the world.  

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10 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Point of interest on your point of interest. 

Nordstream 1 was running at 25% capacity as of June.  As of August, it was completely shut down, with the Russians citing "maintenance" (though we know it was retaliation for sanctions and EU support for Ukraine).  By September 26, when the pipeline was blown, neither Nordstream pipeline hadn't been transporting any natural gas for over a month and the EU had already firmly committed to anti-Russian sanctions and weaning themselves off Russian gas.  

Jeffery Sachs' theory went cold because he provided no evidence for it, like he does with a lot of stuff he says.  Like with his claims of COVID-19 coming from Chinese bioweapon labs, he is more than happy to promote theories that cannot be supported.  This is why his economic "renown' is much diminished from 15-20 years ago, since the implementation of his economic theories have generally led to disaster around the world.  

Yet...nothing as far as who done it...since late September.

BTW...The Rona did obviously come from that Wuhan lab. Or do you still believe in the horseshit Fauci insisted on?

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4 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Yet...nothing as far as who done it...since late September.

We may never know.  It could have been the US.  It could have been Russia.  It could have been China.  It could have been Switzerland.  The pipeline was only 70 meters deep.  Recreational divers go 40 meters.  Technical divers can go over 100.  Robotic/drone submersibles are available commercially that go further. Anyone was capable of doing it.  The question is who was most likely. 

I look at the US and weigh the opportunity (what they had to gain) vs the risk.  If it was them, they blew up 50 meters of a pipeline that was shut down already and not likely to transport gas anytime in the near future.  It's not terribly to difficult to fix either, so what did this accomplish?  Balanced against that is the risk of getting caught blowing up allied infrastructure and causing an international incident.  

As for Russia, they had nothing to lose.  They'd already refused to send gas and they have a second pipeline sitting there at zero capacity as well.  If they get caught, what happens?  Does Europe get more angry with them than they already are?  ?  Balanced against this is the confusion, suspicion and angst they cause in the EU who they obviously consider(ed?) fractious and soft.  

4 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

BTW...The Rona did obviously come from that Wuhan lab. Or do you still believe in the horseshit Fauci insisted on?

Given the efforts made in the West to align themselves against China over the last few years, I'm not sure how you can convince yourself that western virologist are all in cahoots with the Chinese, or that their research concluding COVID 19 didn't come from a lab is falsified.  These sorts of contradictions, however, never seem to bother you. 

How do you feel about climate change, by the way?  You should look up how Jeff Sachs feels about this since he's so world-renowned and credible.   

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18 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

We may never know.  It could have been the US.  It could have been Russia.  It could have been China.  It could have been Switzerland.  The pipeline was only 70 meters deep.  Recreational divers go 40 meters.  Technical divers can go over 100.  Robotic/drone submersibles are available commercially that go further. Anyone was capable of doing it.  The question is who was most likely. 

I look at the US and weigh the opportunity (what they had to gain) vs the risk.  If it was them, they blew up 50 meters of a pipeline that was shut down already and not likely to transport gas anytime in the near future.  It's not terribly to difficult to fix either, so what did this accomplish?  Balanced against that is the risk of getting caught blowing up allied infrastructure and causing an international incident.  

As for Russia, they had nothing to lose.  They'd already refused to send gas and they have a second pipeline sitting there at zero capacity as well.  If they get caught, what happens?  Does Europe get more angry with them than they already are?  ?  Balanced against this is the confusion, suspicion and angst they cause in the EU who they obviously consider(ed?) fractious and soft.  

Given the efforts made in the West to align themselves against China over the last few years, I'm not sure how you can convince yourself that western virologist are all in cahoots with the Chinese, or that their research concluding COVID 19 didn't come from a lab is falsified.  These sorts of contradictions, however, never seem to bother you. 

How do you feel about climate change, by the way?  You should look up how Jeff Sachs feels about this since he's so world-renowned and credible.   

Huh...well the Russians could have just turned the taps off at their end, for one thing. I also have seen vids of Ol' Joe telling reporters that those pipelines will never operate, and I think it was Blinken who said this was a business opportunity for the States. 'Follow the money'. Joey screwed NATO when he surrendered to the Taliban, and he's screwing them all again with inflated fuel prices. I understand in Poland, folks are going to major coal depots to get personal supplies for the winter.

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/poland-where-coal-is-king-homeowners-queue-days-buy-fuel-2022-08-27/

They won't have warm homes, enough electricity, and of course, inflation is gonna go wacky on them. All avoidable.

What was it that geek Gates said? Oh ya...

Quote

For the Microsoft co-founder, the crisis that Europe is suffering due to the energy shortage "is good in the long term", because "people will not want to depend on Russian gas".

However, he himself acknowledged that he was wrong to believe that this transition would be quicker.

Instead, Bill Gates said that in his opinion this will take at least three decades. In his comments, Gates pointed out that many people are dependent on what we consume and our world revolves around it, so the change will not happen "radically". Therefore, "a plan to accelerate the process" is needed.

https://www.marca.com/en/lifestyle/world-news/2022/10/23/6355138946163fce2d8b45bd.html

How nice for Bill Gates...

This Libbie Green BS has to end. As does the war in Ukraine.

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45 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Huh...well the Russians could have just turned the taps off at their end, for one thing.

They already had.  Nord 2 never even started operating, and Nord 1 had been shut down for over a month.  Russia therefore had two useless heaps of metal strung out over thousands of kilometers, and literally nothing better to do with them than psyops.  

45 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

I also have seen vids of Ol' Joe telling reporters that those pipelines will never operate, and I think it was Blinken who said this was a business opportunity for the States.

Joe said he can make sure Nordstream 2 never operates.  It never has.  Political pressure from outside and at home in Germany made sure that pipeline was never turned on, no sabotage required.  

Blinken never said what you say he did either.  His actual quote was:

“It’s a tremendous opportunity to once and for all remove the dependence on Russian energy and thus to take away from Vladimir Putin the weaponization of energy as a means of advancing his imperial designs.”

These conversations would go a lot better for you if you would read beyond the click-bait headlines saying what you want to hear.  

45 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

'Follow the money'. Joey screwed NATO when he surrendered to the Taliban, and he's screwing them all again with inflated fuel prices. I understand in Poland, folks are going to major coal depots to get personal supplies for the winter.

Donald Trump negotiated the terms and timeline of the Afghanistan withdrawal.  That's a fact.  Joe Biden pushed the timeline back from May 1 to August, and it was still an absolute disaster.  

Poland is one of the most anti-Putin states in Europe, and will stoicly bear the discomfort.  Don't worry about them.  

45 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

How nice for Bill Gates...

This Libbie Green BS has to end. As does the war in Ukraine.

but then you're quoting die-hard green economists like Jeffrey Sachs to support your pro-Russian argument for Ukraine.  

Edited by Moonbox
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29 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

They already had.  Nord 2 never even started operating, and Nord 1 had been shut down for over a month.  Russia therefore had two useless heaps of metal strung out over thousands of kilometers, and literally nothing better to do with them than psyops.  

Joe said he can make sure Nordstream 2 never operates.  It never has.  Political pressure from outside and at home in Germany made sure that pipeline was never turned on, no sabotage required.  

Blinken never said what you say he did either.  His actual quote was:

“It’s a tremendous opportunity to once and for all remove the dependence on Russian energy and thus to take away from Vladimir Putin the weaponization of energy as a means of advancing his imperial designs.”

These conversations would go a lot better for you if you would read beyond the click-bait headlines saying what you want to hear.  

Donald Trump negotiated the terms and timeline of the Afghanistan withdrawal.  That's a fact.  Joe Biden pushed the timeline back from May 1 to August, and it was still an absolute disaster.  

Poland is one of the most anti-Putin states in Europe, and will stoicly bear the discomfort.  Don't worry about them.  

but then you're quoting die-hard green economists like Jeffrey Sachs to support your pro-Russian argument for Ukraine.  

Follow the money.

Quote

Blinken made the comments when asked what the US and Canada are doing to ease Europe’s energy crisis in the wake of the Nord Stream sabotage. Blinken said that Washington had been working for some time to provide Europe with more energy, and as a result, the US is now Europe’s biggest supplier of liquefied natural gas (LNG).

And we’re now the leading supplier of LNG to Europe to help compensate for any gas or oil that it’s losing as a result of Russia’s aggression against Ukraine,” Blinken said.

Over the years, the US worked hard to oppose Nord Stream 2 by imposing sanctions but failed to stop its construction. The project was paused by Berlin after Russia invaded Ukraine.

https://scheerpost.com/2022/10/03/blinken-says-nord-stream-sabotage-is-a-tremendous-opportunity/

These conversations would go well if you'd quit presenting half-truths. Misrepresenting peoples' words is cheap.

It is indeed a fact that Trump had negotiated a withdrawl. And had he directed it...the USA wouldn't have simply surrendered to the Taliban. They apparently would have kept that one air field as well...oh and probably not left all that equipment behind...or let soldiers get blown up. But ya...at least Biden stuck America's tail between its legs and ran away.

The Polaks "will stoicly bear the discomfort" huh? How nice of you to determine that for them. I somehow doubt you're correct.

Meh...you don't like Jeffery Sachs...'Loose the Pigeons!'

Edited by Nationalist
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48 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Follow the money.

Follow the logic.  Since no gas was flowing anyways, what changed by blowing up the pipeline?  What money are we following?  How can you get less than zero gas from these pipelines?  

48 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

These conversations would go well if you'd quit presenting half-truths. Misrepresenting peoples' words is cheap.

Your accusations might have a chance of landing if you could actually explain what's been misrepresented.  If you can't do that, then spare your breath.  ?

48 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

It is indeed a fact that Trump had negotiated a withdrawl. And had he directed it...the USA wouldn't have simply surrendered to the Taliban. They apparently would have kept that one air field as well...oh and probably not left all that equipment behind...or let soldiers get blown up. But ya...at least Biden stuck America's tail between its legs and ran away.

Easy to say that after the fact.  This sort of revisionism is always funny, where your successor follows your general plan and then you blame them when it turns out awful.  How do you figure the US was going to operate a major air base in Afghanistan surrounded by the Taliban on all sides?  

48 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

The Polaks "will stoicly bear the discomfort" huh? How nice of you to determine that for them. I somehow doubt you're correct.

The fact that the Poles are among the most anti-Russian people in Europe seems to be lost on you.  As usual, you'll believe what you prefer and little else.  

48 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

Meh...you don't like Jeffery Sachs...'Loose the Pigeons!'

You copied a headline off your 4chan feed but obviously don't know anything about the guy. The fact that you'd quote him here as an expert on European geopolitics but then (unprompted by anyone and totally unrelated) go off against the Liberal Green BS that he's been promoting for years is quite funny.  

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21 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Follow the logic.  Since no gas was flowing anyways, what changed by blowing up the pipeline?  What money are we following?  How can you get less than zero gas from these pipelines?  

Your accusations might have a chance of landing if you could actually explain what's been misrepresented.  If you can't do that, then spare your breath.  ?

Easy to say that after the fact.  This sort of revisionism is always funny, where your successor follows your general plan and then you blame them when it turns out awful.  How do you figure the US was going to operate a major air base in Afghanistan surrounded by the Taliban on all sides?  

The fact that the Poles are among the most anti-Russian people in Europe seems to be lost on you.  As usual, you'll believe what you prefer and little else.  

You copied a headline off your 4chan feed but obviously don't know anything about the guy. The fact that you'd quote him here as an expert on European geopolitics but then (unprompted by anyone and totally unrelated) go off against the Liberal Green BS that he's been promoting for years is quite funny.  

You should only post to these bottom feeders if you are absolutely bored.  Of course Sachs is THE liberal/green/WEF type of guy that the trollerati despises as much as they misunderstand him...

Prepare for another non-response to your painfully fact-laden and logical post...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Sachs

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2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Follow the logic.  Since no gas was flowing anyways, what changed by blowing up the pipeline?  What money are we following?  How can you get less than zero gas from these pipelines?  

Your accusations might have a chance of landing if you could actually explain what's been misrepresented.  If you can't do that, then spare your breath.  ?

Easy to say that after the fact.  This sort of revisionism is always funny, where your successor follows your general plan and then you blame them when it turns out awful.  How do you figure the US was going to operate a major air base in Afghanistan surrounded by the Taliban on all sides?  

The fact that the Poles are among the most anti-Russian people in Europe seems to be lost on you.  As usual, you'll believe what you prefer and little else.  

You copied a headline off your 4chan feed but obviously don't know anything about the guy. The fact that you'd quote him here as an expert on European geopolitics but then (unprompted by anyone and totally unrelated) go off against the Liberal Green BS that he's been promoting for years is quite funny.  

Dude...if someone full of "Liberal Green BS" and is able to opine that the US likely done it? Or is the primary suspect anyway. That doesn't strike you as odd? Sure it does. That's probably why now he is to be belittled by liberals.

I think I'll just follow the money...but thanks for the suggestion. 

Edited by Nationalist
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7 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Dude...if someone full of "Liberal Green BS" and is able to opine that the US likely done it? Or is the primary suspect anyway. That doesn't strike you as odd? Sure it does. That's probably why now he is to be belittled by liberals.

Why would it?  He mouths off on a lot of things he doesn't know anything about.  Even as an economist I don't put much stock in his opinions, given his multi-decade legacy of bluster followed by abject failure.  

Him being a climate crusader isn't actually relevant to the topic, but I did think it was funny/odd that you'd quote him as an expert on this topic (which he isn't) but then rant against the Liberal Green BS he spends most of his time promoting.  It's just another in a long list of contradictions you've made here, but we know from experience that you're just going to close your eyes and power through it.  

7 hours ago, Nationalist said:

I think I'll just follow the money...but thanks for the suggestion. 

You still haven't answered the question.  How does blowing up a pipeline that wasn't sending any gas make Europe need more American LNG than they already did? Russia was already refusing to send any gas, so how did blowing up an idle pipeline increase demand for American gas?  You can't send less than zero gas, can you?  

Ponder that while you're pretending you can "follow the money".  ?

 

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5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Why would it?  He mouths off on a lot of things he doesn't know anything about.  Even as an economist I don't put much stock in his opinions, given his multi-decade legacy of bluster followed by abject failure.  

Him being a climate crusader isn't actually relevant to the topic, but I did think it was funny/odd that you'd quote him as an expert on this topic (which he isn't) but then rant against the Liberal Green BS he spends most of his time promoting.  It's just another in a long list of contradictions you've made here, but we know from experience that you're just going to close your eyes and power through it.  

You still haven't answered the question.  How does blowing up a pipeline that wasn't sending any gas make Europe need more American LNG than they already did? Russia was already refusing to send any gas, so how did blowing up an idle pipeline increase demand for American gas?  You can't send less than zero gas, can you?  

Ponder that while you're pretending you can "follow the money".  ?

 

I don't need to ponder anything. I'll let the German people speak for themselves. 

https://www.timeturk.com/en/thousands-march-in-eastern-germany-to-protest-soaring-energy-prices/news-61755

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and what are the Germans saying that helps you "follow the money"? 

Almost 65% of them still support the sanctions against Russia, even though they believe it hurts them more than Russia according to the latest polls.  That number is higher in Poland and the Baltics.  

 

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