Was the Liberal Party a Criminal Organization?

[August1991]

This is what Gomery said:

The LPCQ as an institution cannot escape responsibility for the misconduct of its officers and representatives. Two successive Executive Directors were directly involved in illegal campaign financing, and many of its workers accepted cash payments for their services when they should have known that such payments were in violation of the Canada Elections Act.

This is what Martin said:

Just hours after the report was tabled in the House of Commons, Martin announced the Mounties will investigate Gomery's findings that there was a kickback scheme run by a friend of former prime minister Jean Chretien to funnel cash to the Liberal party

Martin said the Liberals will broaden efforts to clean up a scandal that has left the party "aghast."

The prime minister banned 10 prominent members from the Liberal Party, including Alfonso Gagliano.

Martin told reporters: "This is not the Liberal way. This is not the history of the Liberal party and it is not the way that Liberals believe that political parties or government should operate."

The Liberals will also repay 1.14 million dollars to the federal government. The money was diverted from taxpayers to the party in Quebec.

This is what Harper has said:

OTTAWA – Conservative leader and Leader of the Opposition Stephen Harper released the following statement today regarding the Prime Minister’s comments in Kelowna:

"The Liberals need to apologize to Canadians for the Sponsorship corruption, and the Liberal party needs to come clean about the tens of millions of Sponsorship dollars which are still missing.

A Conservative government will ask the appropriate authorities to take action against the Liberal party to recover the missing money."

[fellowtraveller]

The Liberals will also repay 1.14 million dollars to the federal government. The money was diverted from taxpayers to the party in Quebec.

Which raises the obvious question of: since when is the criminal allowed to determine the extent of the crime, then decide what his penalty will be? And please, the money wasn't 'diverted', it was stolen and remains stolen to this day.

Why hasn't the RCMP long long ago seized every financial record in the Quebec and national party filecases, and followed the money?

Too late now, the shredders will have done their work.

What a sorry and pathetic episode in our history. And it will go basically unpunished.

[Riverwind]

Which raises the obvious question of: since when is the criminal allowed to determine the extent of the crime, then decide what his penalty will be? And please, the money wasn't 'diverted', it was stolen and remains stolen to this day.

My understanding is Gomery came up with the figure.

[scribblet]

Stephen Harper has refused to make an apology for his "Organized Crime" remark, and rightly so.

After all, Gagliano has been connected to the Mafia Bonanno family, and he is the one most closely connected to the Adscam corruption. SH did not say Martin was connected to organized crime--only that the Liberal Party's theft of tax dollars was associated with organized crime; and that is a given with the above statement.

I do not think they will carry the threat of a law suit any further as it only emphsizes to the public the rotteness they would rather have fade away.

[Guest eureka]

Martin's lawyers have written to Harper challenging him to repeat his charges outside the House.

Your Gagliani connection will not hold. Gagliani was fired by the Liberals when his role in Adscam came to light.

[Leafless]

Exactly how much the Liberals misappropiated and what is owed back to Canadians will probably never be known.

Here is an article to help refresh your memories concerning ADSCAM allegations.

http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/O.../pf-989946.html

[mcqueen625]

It seems the federal Liberal Party feels entitled to do whatever it is they please and should not be held accountable by Canadian's. They are not even offering an apology to Canadian's with an election looming, all they seem to be doing is trying to act indignant at being caught with their proverbial hands in the cookie jar, and attacking the Conservatives and anyone elese that suggests they are not fit to govern Canada. As for telling us what they will do for us if re-elected, they seem to having nothing on the plate except more of teh same old corruption. Rather than cleaning up the mess Martin is contributing to it.

After 12 years, it is time for a change, and I would suggest that all of this fear-mongering which seems to be Martin's only defense against the Conservatives is nothing but smoke and mirrors to get back in power. Martin can speculate and fear monger all he wants but for the last 12 years it was not the Conservatives who wer defrauding and stealing taxpayer's money, it was the Liberal's and I don't really care what their lofty motivation was. The point is Stephen Harper has never been given a chance to govern, and until he is given a chance to see what he can do to clean up this mess, speculation and fear-mongering is just that speculation and fear mongering.

Certainly Martin has done nothing to clean it up, in fact the Liberal mindset of entitlement has just continued under Martin's watch, and as for taking responsibility for any of it, he simply tries to distance himself from it. martin talks about being the only one who can defend our scared trust Medicare, and what do we have? We have private hospitals opening charging a membership fees and annual dues for those who can afford to pay for private healthcare. Now we have the owner of this private hospital planning to build 37 more membership hospitals right across Canada. All this while our supposed defenders of Public care sit idly by and allow it to happen. It won't be long before Medicare disappears and is replaced with private healthcare facilities, and for those of us who cannot afford care or the insurance that cover's such care, we will simply die outside it's doors, and Martinites will be paying their membership fees to be looked after medically.

[August1991]

After all, Gagliano has been connected to the Mafia Bonanno family, and he is the one most closely connected to the Adscam corruption.

Here is the link:

Alfonso Gagliano has held titles in Canada that include labor minister, deputy House leader, ambassador to Denmark and minister of public works.

In New York he held a different kind of title, according to secret FBI documents obtained by the Daily News: "made" member of the Bonanno crime family.

Gagliano was identified as a longtime soldier in the Bonanno crime family by Frank Lino, a former Mafia capo-turned-informer.

NY Daily News

Your Gagliani connection will not hold. Gagliani was fired by the Liberals when his role in Adscam came to light.

And that's the end of the story?

----

Frankly, IMV, the New York Daily News is hardly a reputable source to base such a strong accusation. But where is all the other money? What does all this mean? Clearly, Paul Martin wants to put all this behind him.

Harper was correct with his accusation. It directed attention back at Adscam at a moment when all eyes were focused on the motion of confidence. No one else in the Conservative Party could have attracted the same attention.

As it was, the media almost ignored the point. It was only when the PMO thought it could use the phrase as evidence of "another Harper gaffe" that the media picked up on it.

The PMO knows how to push and pull the levers but it misses the broader picture (and maybe has a thin skin). They should have just ignored the whole thing.

[Canuck E Stan]

Harper mentioned organized crime. He did not mention the Mafioso as being behind the Liberals as so many are suggesting.

This from an article by John Lawrence in his The Conservative Voice site.

In 2001, the Canadian government tabled legislation in regards to organized crime and terrorism. Bill C-24 passed in both Houses and received royal assent on the 18th of December, 2001. The bill was aimed at biker gangs, and was meant to allow our justice system to deal more harshly with these gangs by being able to characterize them as organized criminal organizations.

There were several very specific changes to our organized crime statutes, and among them was the definition of what constituted a criminal organization. Please read carefully. The following can be found on the Justice Department website. It reads:

The new anti-organized crime legislation will simplify the definition of criminal organization. The definition will:

a) reduce the number of people required to constitute a criminal organization from five to three;

no longer require prosecutors to demonstrate that members of the criminal organization were involved in committing crimes for the criminal organization in the last five years. Instead, prosecutors will be able to focus on the evidence relevant to the crimes for which the offender is on trial; and

c) broaden the scope of the offences which define a criminal organization (currently limited to indictable offences punishable by five or more years) to all serious crimes.

Among the changes that it introduced to our criminal law was making participation in a criminal organization an offence. The new offences will target anyone who:

a) participates in or contributes to activities that help a criminal organization achieve its criminal objectives. This offence can include, for example, people who recruit others to join a criminal organization or who facilitate illegal transactions of a criminal organization. The maximum penalty for this offence will be five years;

is involved in committing indictable offences for the benefit of criminal organizations. The maximum penalty for this offence will be 14 years; and

c) is a leader of a criminal organization. These persons will include anyone within the criminal organization who instructs another person to become involved in a criminal offence. This offence carries a maximum penalty of life imprisonment.

If you are still not sure that the sponsorship scandal fits this bill, please remember that there were at least three people charged in the scheme, that these people were facilitating illegal transactions knowingly, and that defrauding the people of Canada of millions of dollars and using that money to assist in financing a national election campaign is a serious crime.

Adscam and those involved are thereby enveloped into the definition of a criminal organization and conspiracy, the definitions being written by the Liberal Party of Canada. Since those who were behind Adscam and those who benefited were all connected in some way or another to the federal Liberal Party, it is safe to say that the government of Prime Minister Paul Martin indeed has ties to organized crime.

Now understanding Bill C-24 and its implications, the real question that the media should be asking of the government is why those involved and facing trial are not and were not being tried as conspirators in an organized criminal enterprise.

Don Martin?

[shoop]

Did they double-dog dare him? Who gives a f**k if Martin's lawyers sent a letter to Harper?

Martin's lawyers have written to Harper challenging him to repeat his charges outside the House.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Yaro]

Did they double-dog dare him? Who gives a f**k if Martin's lawyers sent a letter to Harper?

It betrays the statement for what it was, the worst kind of gutter politics, and it betrays Harper for what he is, a classless imbecile no more capable of reforming Ottawa then any other chimp.

[shoop]

I don't understand what "betrays" means in the way you use it. The Liberals have already gone on record that they are going to run a negative campaign, so why should the Conservatives run clean?

"Classless imbecile" - nice. That is bound to raise the level of debate.

It betrays the statement for what it was, the worst kind of gutter politics, and it betrays Harper for what he is, a classless imbecile no more capable of reforming Ottawa then any other chimp.

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[Guest eureka]

I don't know who gives what, shoop, I do know that Harper will keep his mouth tightly closed on this subject in public.

It has to be the most classless utterance of Harper's classless career. It is revelation of the incompetence and lack of intelligence of the Conservative leader. As a Conservative, you should feel free to be embarrassed by your leader and to insist on a change before the Party is laughed out of existence.

[sharkman]

So this is the worst thing Harper has ever said? I'm seeing that a lot from liberal supporters in general, but this knee jerk reaction happens every time he says something controversial. Liberal supporters were absolutely 'shocked' when Harper talked about Martin and child porn.

But they are only words Harper is using, not actions like the Liberals have been doing, throwing millions at Quebec in some convoluted scheme to 'buy' its place in Canada, and now throwing billions at voters in the hope they don't smell the stench of Liberal corruption. But all Liberal supporters can seem to do is be shocked at the words of Harper. How can words be worse than that?

[tml12]

So this is the worst thing Harper has ever said?  I'm seeing that a lot from liberal supporters in general, but this knee jerk reaction happens every time he says something controversial.  Liberal supporters were absolutely 'shocked' when Harper talked about Martin and child porn.

But they are only words Harper is using, not actions like the Liberals have been doing,  throwing millions at Quebec in some convoluted scheme to 'buy' its place in Canada, and now throwing billions at voters in the hope they don't smell the stench of Liberal corruption.  But all Liberal supporters can seem to do is be shocked at the words of Harper.  How can words be worse than that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Harper is only campaining on the Liberals disgusting record...there really isn't much else for the Liberals to attack. They are not going to attack something on conservative.ca because they wouldn't want to give people a reason to go there.

[shoop]

Only if you feel free to be disgusted by the $1.14 Million the Liberals stole and *might* payback.

It has to be the most classless utterance of Harper's classless career. It is revelation of the incompetence and lack of intelligence of the Conservative leader. As a Conservative, you should feel free to be embarrassed by your leader and to insist on a change before the Party is laughed out of existence.

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[Guest eureka]

I did not say it was the worst thing he has said. I said it was the most classless. Every time he opens his mouth on policy issues he says far worse things.

[Canuck E Stan]

Martin in BC

Just days before the almost certain launch of a federal election campaign, Martin offered a preview of the "messages" voters can expect to hear.

"This election campaign is not talking about where we have come from, it's about talking about where we are going as a nation," he said. "We are very proud of what we have done in the past but just watch what we're going to do in the future."

Now that's very scary.

[wellandboy]

Harper's statement was hardly classless and actually understates the corruption in the Liberal Party, particularily in Quebec. The misdeeds were criminal and were organized, in fact highly organized. It's that simple. We'll let Canadians decide.

[shoop]

Well, don't even bother trying to reason with Eureka.

Simply a blind Liberal who shows no respect for others and hurls insults at every opportunity.

Harper's statement was hardly classless and actually understates the corruption in the Liberal Party, particularily in Quebec. The misdeeds were criminal and were organized, in fact highly organized. It's that simple. We'll let Canadians decide.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[scribblet]

It is the liberals who lack class when it has been revealed that they plan on running a negative campaign. The liberals are hardly a class act when it comes to getting down and dirty, they are the masters at it. I'm expecting this to the dirtiest campaign yet. The conservative took the high road the last time and it didn't work, they would be wise to get far more agressive this time and not pull any punches. I don't like to say, get down to their level, but if the liberals plan on winning with negative agressive campaigning, then conservatives will have to reply in kind.

Liberals have allready started the dirty tricks in Gary Lunn's riding. The riding is getting telephone calls from a telemarketer who claims they are phoning on behalf of Gary Lunn; then partway through the conversation states that Gary does NOT support Harper.

The mistake they made was phoning Gary Lunn's house; he got their phone number, is going to call the RCMP and the press...

bet the press doesn't mention it.

[Argus]

Did they double-dog dare him? Who gives a f**k if Martin's lawyers sent a letter to Harper?

It betrays the statement for what it was, the worst kind of gutter politics,

Oh? Well then, since that would without question make the Tories more like the Liberals I assume that means you're happy?

[shoop]

I think the Liberals are in trouble. The CPC has got to respond to the Liberals negative stuff, and they will. This income trust story is gonna have legs. The two attempts the Liberals have made to create controversy about the Conservatives have gone no where. Maybe the sympathetic liberal press won't be so sympathetic this time around.

It is the liberals who lack class when it has been revealed that they plan on running a negative campaign.  The liberals are hardly a class act when it comes to getting down and dirty, they are the masters at it.  I'm expecting this to the dirtiest campaign yet.  The conservative took the high road the last time and it didn't work,  they would be wise to get far more agressive this time and not pull any punches.  I don't like to say, get down to their level, but if the liberals plan on winning with negative agressive campaigning, then conservatives will have to reply in kind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[Argus]

I don't know who gives what, shoop, I do know that Harper will keep his mouth tightly closed on this subject in public.

It has to be the most classless utterance of Harper's classless career.

Oh please. Stop with the indignation. If class mattered to you you'd not be such a strong Liberal supporter.

It is revelation of the incompetence and lack of intelligence of the Conservative leader.

Hmm, no one has ever questioned Harper's intelligence; well, no one of any substance anyway.

Three Italians, meeting in a quiet restaurant, furtively looking around for cops, turning up the heat to help check for hidden microphones, exchanging stolen money and bribes across the table in cash stuffed envelopes...

Naaah, that doesn't sound like organized crime!

And aside from Gagaliano's connection to organized crime (I notice he never threatened to sue the NY Daily News) we have his pal Guiseppe (big Joe) Morselli whose car was blown up, and, what was the third guy, who asked for police protection after an argument with Guiseppe? Protection from what?

Your indignation is patently phony. If you had any sense of values you'd be so disgusted at the Liberals' behaviour and so concerned about their mafia-like money laundering, bribery and possible mob connections you'd be attacking them too.

[szkw1]

Wow some people have very short memories. Need i remind you CP lovers that the last Conservative Gov't was the most corrupt in Canadian history. How many mebers went to jail?