What evidence is there to support Canada being 'systemically racist'?

[Army Guy]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

No, my logic is more fluid and contextual. In the case you suggest it's evidence of pigheaded ignorance and I have little sympathy for it.  In the context I use surrounding a real issue like systemic racism it's just ignorance and a little more forgivable.

I mean it when I say people's angst is associated with their attachment to things and directions that veer away from the attachment hurts, like a scab coming off to soon.  I don't know why it's so hard for people to be more detached from institutions that made racism systemic without also acknowledging their liability for it where compensation or changes in our system are called for either by courts or thru negotiation.

Government institutions are by design intended to carry and transmit societies values beyond the lifespans of the individuals governed by them so it stands to reason institutions should also keep carrying societies liabilities forward as well.   

By this logic we would need to open the bank vault wide open, pay out for our mistakes with slavery, of both black, white yellow, the list is long, pay out the Chinese for the railroad, the Irish for how we treated them coming over during the famine, what about how the different classes where treated, how did we treat nations we were at war with, Boar, Germans, Turks, Italians, Japanese so far there is no line in the sand where to stop... you've opened pandoras box...

the list could go on and i'm sure everyone would be entitled to a payout and apology somewhere along the road... and while we are at it, we could dig into Indigenous transgressions against other indigenous nations, settlers, how far do you want to go.  lets face it everyone on this planet are one racist mother truckers are we not.   

[eyeball]

3 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

how far do you want to go.

Within living memory seems reasonable. I can see how that might in cases span 2 - 3 generations, where the abuse or dispossession of grandparents for example resulted in pain or dysfunction that's lasted up until the present or the loss of heritage and representation etc.

[Army Guy]

1 minute ago, eyeball said:

Within living memory seems reasonable. I can see how that might in cases span 2 - 3 generations, where the abuse or dispossession of grandparents for example resulted in pain or dysfunction that's lasted up until the present or the loss of heritage and representation etc.

bullshit, half these Indigenous treaties date back centuries, and it seems our government honors or should i say try's to when it is convenient.  So why do we honor some treaty and not transgressions we as a nation have made against others why do we need to just single our one race or creed, to pay out. or are we doing that next year, maybe during an election. 

[MajorJo]

It is called fake woke sheep imo...

[Zeitgeist]

Eyeball is under the illusion that if he pays some kind of temporary reparations levy with other Canadian taxpayers, suddenly the activists will say, “Ah, you guys have really made amends.  All good now, you can cease the payouts.”

That’s not how it goes.  The game is to milk the cow to death.  There will never be enough settlement of treaties or compensation for perceived past injuries for some people, and they’re the squeaky wheels pushing over statues and sitting around a flaming garbage can stopping trains or putting up banners on church alters.  They’re in charge, the proof being the now debunked mass murder Indigenous grave stories that caused a year of Canadian flags at half mast.  Right now, on top of the previous residential school payouts, the human rights tribunal is talking $40,000 per person with no cap on future payouts.

People have natural bullshit detectors.  Let me see: no taxation, free education, free healthcare, free higher education, and significant government funding of reserve infrastructure while asking nothing of Indigenous…Oh and it isn’t the government that wants to keep the Indian Act.  Yes injustices happened that shouldn’t be downplayed.

The apologies and free stuff can’t go on forever.  That wouldn’t be fair, no matter how indignant you are about land that was misappropriated 250 years ago.  The Loyalists had their land seized in the US, yet I don’t know any great great great great grandchildren demanding the return of pasture in Massachusetts.

Setting groups up with race-based special status is dubious and creates two-tier citizenship.  In the long run it’s a failed policy.  I certainly wouldn’t throw additional money at it unless a court issues an order based on evidence supporting a particular land claim or claim of abuse.  Those judgements are case by case, which is fair.

Edited October 27, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[eyeball]

52 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Eyeball is under the illusion that if he pays some kind of temporary reparations levy with other Canadian taxpayers, suddenly the activists will say, “Ah, you guys have really made amends.  All good now, you can cease the payouts.”

Have you noticed several times now where I've said this will take a couple generations? Does that really sound temporary?

Speaking of illusions you believe you live in a totalitarian dictatorship that's on par with Stalin's and Hitler's.

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

Have you noticed several times now where I've said this will take a couple generations? Does that really sound temporary?

Speaking of illusions you believe you live in a totalitarian dictatorship that's on par with Stalin's and Hitler's.

Again, I’m not the taskmaster who wants to strip rights from people because of medical or political views. That’s your thing.  I just don’t want to saddle my kids with endless payouts to identity politics money pits for selected victim groups.  I do think if it’s really important to you, you should write a fat personal cheque.  ?

Edited October 27, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[I am Groot]

13 hours ago, eyeball said:

I doubt the SCC will spend a moment's time considering this as an argument when it comes to them finally having to settle things in the case of 1st Nations.

Yes, because the SCC is so careful to consider only absolute, rock-solid evidence like oh, oral history.

13 hours ago, eyeball said:

Eventually it'll be indigenous aspirations that guide our government and institution's stance toward everyone.  The process will even be systemic in nature but it'll still take a few generations.

As far as I can tell indigenous aspirations are to have us pay them more money forever.

[scribblet]

8 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Yes, because the SCC is so careful to consider only absolute, rock-solid evidence like oh, oral history.

As far as I can tell indigenous aspirations are to have us pay them more money forever.

I would say that's the end game,  or, we give it all back then pay exorbitant rent.

[eyeball]

11 hours ago, I am Groot said:

As far as I can tell indigenous aspirations are to have us pay them more money forever.

Just think of it as a royalty.

Just like Ottawa does.

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, eyeball said:

Just think of it as a royalty.

Just like Ottawa does.

Your stance is what’s running Canada into the ground.  $40 billion of taxpayer money (which government doesn’t have, so it’s actually debt) is going to be paid out to Indigenous on top of previous “reparations”, and it’s highly likely that it won’t stop there.  The Canadian government won’t protect the workers who are footing the bill for this and the constant attacks on the country’s legitimacy.

You remind me of the permissive parent who wakes up one day wondering why nothing good has come of free range parenting.

Indigenous enjoy more perks than any group in Canada and less is asked of them than any group in Canada.  Of course many Canadians don’t know their history or how we ended up here.  They don’t understand that Indigenous warred against each other, many intermarried with settlers, and settler society existed quite peacefully alongside Indigenous societies in Canada until the Indigenous became vastly outnumbered by immigrants.  We’re still constantly bringing in immigrants and no one any longer calls this colonialism, because governments always believe that they are progressive when they use settlement as a means of paying government bills.

I suspect Eyeball would’ve been a staunch supporter of residential schools as a way to “help” Indigenous a century ago.  At the time free public education was highly valued and residential schooling was the way to provide it.  Indigenous still leave remote communities to live near high schools. The educators a century ago were settlers and education reflected their values, which were considered good by the mainstream electorate.

You promote shooting yourself in the foot, presumably as some kind of penitence, but the payouts will only reinforce dependence and more demands.  It’s stupid, but you think it’s good.  It’s no less paternalistic than residential schools.  The exercise just brings the country steps closer to bankruptcy and turns control of the country over to people who want to dismantle it.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[Nationalist]

2 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Your stance is what’s running Canada into the ground.  $40 billion of taxpayer money (which government doesn’t have, so it’s actually debt) is going to be paid out to Indigenous on top of previous “reparations”, and it’s highly likely that it won’t stop there.  The Canadian government won’t protect the workers who are footing the bill for this and the constant attacks on the country’s legitimacy.

You remind me of the permissive parent who wakes up one day wondering why nothing good has come of free range parenting.

Indigenous enjoy more perks than any group in Canada and less is asked of them than any group in Canada.  Of course many Canadians don’t know their history or how we ended up here.  They don’t understand that Indigenous warred against each other, many intermarried with settlers, and settler society existed quite peacefully alongside Indigenous societies in Canada until the Indigenous became vastly outnumbered by immigrants.  We’re still constantly bringing in immigrants and no one any longer calls this colonialism, because governments always believe that they are progressive when they use settlement as a means of paying government bills.

I suspect Eyeball would’ve been a staunch supporter of residential schools as a way to “help” Indigenous a century ago.  At the time free public education was highly valued and residential schooling was the way to provide it.  Indigenous still leave remote communities to live near high schools. The educators a century ago were settlers and education reflected their values, which were considered good by the mainstream electorate.

You promote shooting yourself in the foot, presumably as some kind of penitence, but the payouts will only reinforce dependence and more demands.  It’s stupid, but you think it’s good.  It’s no less paternalistic than residential schools.  The exercise just brings the country steps closer to bankruptcy and turns control of the country over to people who want to dismantle it.

Is Canada systemically racist?

Lol...that's absurd. Of course not.

Was Canada ever systemically racist? Sure...I believe there was a time, before this was officially Canada, that slavery was permitted.

But for natives...no. history clearly shows that it was at the insistence of the natives, that the reservation system came into being. This was a very short sighted demand the natives made, and it's caused all sorts of problems since.

So instead of addressing the root cause of the issue, we've attempted to put a thousand band aids on it.

Ya gits wut ya pays fer.!

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Is Canada systemically racist?

Lol...that's absurd. Of course not.

Was Canada ever systemically racist? Sure...I believe there was a time, before this was officially Canada, that slavery was permitted.

But for natives...no. history clearly shows that it was at the insistence of the natives, that the reservation system came into being. This was a very short sighted demand the natives made, and it's caused all sorts of problems since.

So instead of addressing the root cause of the issue, we've attempted to put a thousand band aids on it.

Ya gits wut ya pays fer.!

Well slavery was banned by Ontario’s first governor, Simcoe, upon the founding of Upper Canada and it was banned in the British Empire in 1832, long before the founding of Canada, but Canadians don’t know their history and assume that US history is Canadian history.  

Edited October 28, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[eyeball]

6 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I suspect Eyeball would’ve been a staunch supporter of residential schools as a way to “help” Indigenous a century ago.

I suspect you would have killed them all off so you could wash your hands of them.

It's not too late you know.

[Zeitgeist]

56 minutes ago, eyeball said:

I suspect you would have killed them all off so you could wash your hands of them.

It's not too late you know.

You’d like that, huh?  I guess everyone who disagrees with you is a Nazi?

[eyeball]

9 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You’d like that, huh?  I guess everyone who disagrees with you is a Nazi?

No I wouldn't, but where else can you possibly go with the reasoning you bring to things?

It should be increasingly obvious to anyone why this process of reconciliation is going to go on for decades and generations.  After grinding through courts and Parliaments it will eventually result in a new constitution.  We'll be dead by then and we'll be the stuff of apologetics and naysayers who simply don't want to get it.

Don't look up but you're in the middle of a spurt of social and cultural evolution that is to big and protracted to discern clearly from within it. I doubt the people coming out of the Dark Ages into the Enlightenment could see what was happening or where it would lead to either but it still happened.  No doubt there were people who hated  the idea of progress then too.  Too bad our monkey ancestors didn't just leave you up in the trees when we ventured down to the ground below.

[Zeitgeist]

8 minutes ago, eyeball said:

No I wouldn't, but where else can you possibly go with the reasoning you bring to things?

It should be increasingly obvious to anyone why this process of reconciliation is going to go on for decades and generations.  After grinding through courts and Parliaments it will eventually result in a new constitution.  We'll be dead by then and we'll be the stuff of apologetics and naysayers who simply don't want to get it.

Don't look up but you're in the middle of a spurt of social and cultural evolution that is to big and protracted to discern clearly from within it. I doubt the people coming out of the Dark Ages into the Enlightenment could see what was happening or where it would lead to either but it still happened.  No doubt there were people who hated  the idea of progress then too.  Too bad our monkey ancestors didn't just leave you up in the trees when we ventured down to the ground below.

You still don’t see how you’re a monkey ancestor perpetuating discrimination through special treatment for selected groups.  Your great grandkids will continue to pay for this.  

Edited October 28, 2022 by Zeitgeist

[eyeball]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You still don’t see how you’re a monkey ancestor perpetuating discrimination through special treatment for selected groups.  You’re great grandkids will continue to pay for this.  

Eliminating discrimination through special treatment for the discriminated.

If there's a need one day for special treatment for white people I'm quite certain they will get it too.  It's just human nature.

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, eyeball said:

Eliminating discrimination through special treatment for the discriminated.

If there's a need one day for special treatment for white people I'm quite certain they will get it too.  It's just human nature.

Stop perpetuating the idea of different levels of humans based on race.  

[I am Groot]

19 hours ago, eyeball said:

Just think of it as a royalty.

Just like Ottawa does.

Royalties have an end date. 

[eyeball]

5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Stop perpetuating the idea of different levels of humans based on race.  

I'm not, I'm introducing the idea of one species based on a nation called Earth. And yes I would like it very much if you'd get your stupid countries off our planet.  We were here first.

But don't worry, I can accept it will take generations to get where we're going. Feel free to tear your hair out over it.

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Royalties have an end date. 

Ha, go tell that to Mr Wonderful!

 

In any case be careful how you sling that argument lest you give anyone a notion to ask why that shouldn't also be the case for Canada.

Instead, try negotiating a better sharing arrangement.  

[Zeitgeist]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

Ha, go tell that to Mr Wonderful!

 

In any case be careful how you sling that argument lest you give anyone a notion to ask why that shouldn't also be the case for Canada.

Instead, try negotiating a better sharing arrangement.  

You still can’t explain why some people deserve to live off the work of others.  Why should one ethnic group be given items free and not have to contribute anything?  Because of a claim to have been somewhere first?  When?  Everyone has to be somewhere.  It’s a sick game that entrenches the dependence of some ethnic groups on others without regard to individual differences or ability.  Only a fool would want to continue such an arrangement at his own expense, let alone expand it, so again I say, If you think you owe an ethnic group money for the actions of your ancestors against that group’s ancestors, write a fat personal cheque.  

[eyeball]

35 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

You still can’t explain why some people deserve to live off the work of others.  

They don't, that would be slavery.

Quote

Why should one ethnic group be given items free and not have to contribute anything?  Because of a claim to have been somewhere first?  When?

Not when, where. Here in North America.  They contributed a continent.

Quote

Everyone has to be somewhere.  It’s a sick game that entrenches the dependence of some ethnic groups on others without regard to individual differences or ability.  Only a fool would want to continue such an arrangement at his own expense, let alone expand it, so again I say, If you think you owe an ethnic group money for the actions of your ancestors against that group’s ancestors, write a fat personal cheque. 

It's actually a result of inaction on the part of our ancestors.  In the case of BC at least, the King of England made it perfectly clear that settlers and the officials dispatched to govern BC were to secure treaties ceding indigenous title to the Crown.  That didn't happen throughout almost all of BC and so here we are to day having to negotiate treaties now complicated by the mistaken belief settlers had that they could do pretty much anything they wanted.

You're perfectly correct to note that everyone has to be from somewhere. By the very same token the powers that be a way back in the day knew they couldn't just waltz on in someone else's 'somewhere' without due process to make it legal.

[Zeitgeist]

7 hours ago, eyeball said:

They don't, that would be slavery.

Not when, where. Here in North America.  They contributed a continent.

It's actually a result of inaction on the part of our ancestors.  In the case of BC at least, the King of England made it perfectly clear that settlers and the officials dispatched to govern BC were to secure treaties ceding indigenous title to the Crown.  That didn't happen throughout almost all of BC and so here we are to day having to negotiate treaties now complicated by the mistaken belief settlers had that they could do pretty much anything they wanted.

You're perfectly correct to note that everyone has to be from somewhere. By the very same token the powers that be a way back in the day knew they couldn't just waltz on in someone else's 'somewhere' without due process to make it legal.

It wasn’t all someone’s.  Get real.  For two centuries the land seemed endless. The issues arose mostly from the early 1800’s onwards in central Canada with mass migrations.  Property wasn’t much of a concept for most Indigenous and most settlements were temporary.  I won’t get into the conflicts among Indigenous groups.  To make a claim for land that hasn’t already been claimed today requires proof of continuous exclusive occupation.  Good luck with that.  The Indian bloodline and benefits that derive from such status persist, but then the game is avoiding intermarriage with non-Indigenous to maintain tax free status and perks.  It’s archaic but it’s what Indigenous currently want.  Taxpayers fund health, education and infrastructure for Indigenous.  The cost is outrageous and more is asked.  It should be about self-sustaining and self-determining communities.  It’s mostly an unhealthy system of welfare, dependence, and self-imposed apartheid.   Throwing more money at it is insane.