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Drax (UK): "green" burning of Canada's old growth forests


myata

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1 hour ago, Nefarious Banana said:

Think of the forestry workers every time you reach for the toilet paper.  

That logic is no different from think of the bombers of the pond when you eat fish. Its not only about what but how too. Time changes, circumstances change you can't pretend that you're in some time bubble blow up everything in sight because here, the license and that's what they did three centuries back. This how we got here no cod remember could take as much as needed with a basket. And we'll be out of forests too (old growth, primary - almost done) and salmon too this way, and why not?

Flying over Vancouver could see very clearly (if looking, important) all that pretty tales of sustainable-renewable forestry are worth. Can guess that Drux tales just another spin on the same old: squeeze out of it as much dough as possible NOW and to f@$king hell with the posterity.

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1 hour ago, myata said:

That logic is no different from think of the bombers of the pond when you eat fish. Its not only about what but how too. Time changes, circumstances change you can't pretend that you're in some time bubble blow up everything in sight because here, the license and that's what they did three centuries back. This how we got here no cod remember could take as much as needed with a basket. And we'll be out of forests too (old growth, primary - almost done) and salmon too this way, and why not?

Flying over Vancouver could see very clearly (if looking, important) all that pretty tales of sustainable-renewable forestry are worth. Can guess that Drux tales just another spin on the same old: squeeze out of it as much dough as possible NOW and to f@$king hell with the posterity.

Your childlike grasp of the BC forest industry is somewhat amusing in a sad sort of way.

You have a great day !

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Myata does not comprehend that logs is just a generic word. There aren't any Old Growth Ancient Holy poplars or tree limbs or sawdust.
Maybe volunteer to come put out the fires we get here when the leftover sawdust from the gyppo mill that closed 30 years ago spontaneously ignites every so often. Understand the biomass plant they built took much longer clearing it all and went way over budget to get the foundation on actual ground at the other one closed 25 years ago.

But she did point out one thing: that biomass used up shitloads of grant money, supplied power only to the mills  -they never even considered backfeeding to the town itself - , 99% of the original workers were from Spain, when it did startup hired only a few locals and shut down after a year when the feed supply (read that as grant money) ran out. Eventually sold to a conglomerate with the local Band's grant money and no one doubts will shut down again the minute that runs out.
You can drive 1 mile out of town and for the next 50 past piles of wood scrap, stumps, broken trees bulldozed into piles and set on fire every winter and that fuel fully wasted. Not turned into pellets, not burned at the bio-mass plant.

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6 hours ago, myata said:

An epitome of (near) future Canada? According to the database only a couple of dozen of old growth forest areas left in the entire "ad mare", as much as half unsustainable tiny patches. A fine job for less than two centuries of prosperity.

 

In BC:

"There are about 11.1 million hectares of old growth forest in B.C. which make up about 20% of B.C.'s publicly managed forest areas."

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/industry/forestry/managing-our-forest-resources/old-growth-forests/old-growth-values

"The province says there are currently 13.7 million hectares of old growth in British Columbia, and 10 million of those hectares are protected or not economical to harvest"

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/old-growth-trees-british-columbia-1.6045289

 

In Canada

"Canada is often singled out at the international level for not preserving sufficient old forests, even though more than 40% of our primary forests remain largely intact."

https://www.fao.org/3/xii/0042-b1.htm

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5 hours ago, myata said:

Wait, in this 21st century, why do you need to raze (sure "harvest") entire forests even if the trees cannot be used? Can you be more efficient (less lazy and dumb) in this century? Or because they did it like that some centuries back and you're too lazy (etc) to think again, expensive? Drop a bomb in the pond to catch a few fish, as a blueprint for "renewable" future.

Time for you to learn about logging and logging practices.

I can assure you they are as efficient as they can be.

https://www.woodbusiness.ca/how-technology-is-transforming-bcs-forest-industry-5248/

https://biv.com/article/2014/05/canadian-forestry-companies-leaner-more-efficient

 

When you start a topic, find out what it is actually about not some imaginary bubble in your brain.

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51 minutes ago, herbie said:

Myata does not comprehend that logs is just a generic word. There aren't any Old Growth Ancient Holy poplars or tree limbs or sawdust.
Maybe volunteer to come put out the fires we get here when the leftover sawdust from the gyppo mill that closed 30 years ago spontaneously ignites every so often. Understand the biomass plant they built took much longer clearing it all and went way over budget to get the foundation on actual ground at the other one closed 25 years ago.

But she did point out one thing: that biomass used up shitloads of grant money, supplied power only to the mills  -they never even considered backfeeding to the town itself - , 99% of the original workers were from Spain, when it did startup hired only a few locals and shut down after a year when the feed supply (read that as grant money) ran out. Eventually sold to a conglomerate with the local Band's grant money and no one doubts will shut down again the minute that runs out.
You can drive 1 mile out of town and for the next 50 past piles of wood scrap, stumps, broken trees bulldozed into piles and set on fire every winter and that fuel fully wasted. Not turned into pellets, not burned at the bio-mass plant.

Who and where and what are you talking about?

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Not gonna say the specific region, but ask around your area of BC. And I'm not gonna say ALL these projects are bad, one finger joint mill here sustained itself for 15 years and made a shitload of difference for hundreds of local native and non-native employees. A pellet plant down the road has been running quite a while and more are around.
But there's an entire industry of finding grant money in rural BC and no thought given to sustainability in any it seems. We'll just get another grant for something else and milk that until it runs out... seems to be the attitude.

I'll also point out that the old gyppo mills were ones that declared bankruptcy and left an absolute mess for the public to clean up. Not grant scammers but 'real smart business guys' like Trump...

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9 hours ago, herbie said:

that logs is just a generic word

Seriously need very large fonts here! (urgent!!)
only 11% of the logs delivered to the two Drax plants in the past year were classified as the lowest quality

9 hours ago, herbie said:

You can drive 1 mile out of town and for the next 50 past piles of wood scrap, stumps, broken trees bulldozed into piles and set on fire every winter

That was the whole point. Will the beautiful operation run without taxpayer money and razing real, high quality forests? A big question, but CEO bonuses already paid and IPO ahead you know what that means, right? Officer of the government sustainability proudly scratching her a$$ - another job well done. All hail "renewable" (no, never learn, just never sigh).

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4 hours ago, herbie said:

I'll also point out that the old gyppo mills were ones that declared bankruptcy and left an absolute mess for the public to clean up

Gotta squeeze till its dry and to fraking hell with the cod. Seems to be the national business model. Pays for prosperity though.. for a while (as a substitute of consciousness and integrity).

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Most of B.C.’s coastal forests are considered to be old growth if they contain trees that are more than 250 years old. Have you been to BC coast? Have you thrown a look around? How much of the clearcuts count as "old growth" in this great picture? Ask you sustainable forestry expert!

Note the creative ingenuity of the definition for the good, public cause. So you can raze 1000 hectares of primary forest, leave couple of trees standing and it would still qualify for "more than 40% intact". High five, "sustainable-renewable" solved, easy.

In fact of the significant areas of 300 and over years old that were never logged (note the difference) barely more than a handful left ad mare, some tiny decorative hardly sustainable patches. It's living, dripping dough how could you pass it by? The national business.

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7 hours ago, myata said:

Gotta squeeze till its dry and to fraking hell with the cod. Seems to be the national business model. Pays for prosperity though.. for a while (as a substitute of consciousness and integrity).

Again, you obviously have no idea of the logging business and the requirements to replant after logging.

7 hours ago, myata said:

Most of B.C.’s coastal forests are considered to be old growth if they contain trees that are more than 250 years old. Have you been to BC coast? Have you thrown a look around? How much of the clearcuts count as "old growth" in this great picture? Ask you sustainable forestry expert!

Note the creative ingenuity of the definition for the good, public cause. So you can raze 1000 hectares of primary forest, leave couple of trees standing and it would still qualify for "more than 40% intact". High five, "sustainable-renewable" solved, easy.

In fact of the significant areas of 300 and over years old that were never logged (note the difference) barely more than a handful left ad mare, some tiny decorative hardly sustainable patches. It's living, dripping dough how could you pass it by? The national business.

Wow, are you ever wrong about everything you posted.

Stupid uninformed comments from a totally uninformed person.

Like so much of what you post, people are telling you how wrong you are and yet, you keep on with foolish incorrect assumptions and statements.

Even your use of "ad mare" is improper and incorrect as there are no old growth areas "ad mare".

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8 hours ago, myata said:

Most of B.C.’s coastal forests are considered to be old growth if they contain trees that are more than 250 years old. Have you been to BC coast? Have you thrown a look around? How much of the clearcuts count as 'old growth' in this great picture?  Ask your sustainable forestry expert!

Your every post on this subject shows your ignorance.  BC forestry is renewable and sustainable.  Your deflection to Drax is used to cover your real intent to stop logging period.  

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30 minutes ago, Nefarious Banana said:

your real intent to stop logging period.

How about: laziness, dumbness plus enormous, all-encompassing greed?  For two hundred years, can you show one forest that you planted from scratch and managed sustainably and renewably to be the wonder of the world? Instead of worthless pledges and wordplay too thin to cover ubiquitous clearcuts?

Show one 1,000-year old forest that you "renewed" successfully the word so cute just jumps on the tongue.

Ship it all to China, fast! Before the price drops another cent.

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1 hour ago, myata said:

How about: laziness, dumbness plus enormous, all-encompassing greed?  For two hundred years, can you show one forest that you planted from scratch and managed sustainably and renewably to be the wonder of the world? Instead of worthless pledges and wordplay too thin to cover ubiquitous clearcuts?

Show one 1,000-year old forest that you "renewed" successfully the word so cute just jumps on the tongue.

Ship it all to China, fast! Before the price drops another cent.

Stupidity becomes you . . . . 

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1 hour ago, myata said:

How about: laziness, dumbness plus enormous, all-encompassing greed?  For two hundred years, can you show one forest that you planted from scratch and managed sustainably and renewably to be the wonder of the world? Instead of worthless pledges and wordplay too thin to cover ubiquitous clearcuts?

Show one 1,000-year old forest that you "renewed" successfully the word so cute just jumps on the tongue.

Ship it all to China, fast! Before the price drops another cent.

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.  As usual.

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On 10/3/2022 at 3:30 AM, myata said:

The licenses were granted provincially (BC) but the attitude is surely, national. The cod is gone, the salmon is going, and forests are on the way. The happy mindless party has to go on.

Canadian politicians are paid a lot. Like possibly / probably in no other democratic country but hey, aren't them democracies all different so why not have one that pays outrageously edging on obscene? And for all that who can figure out this little adage:

Hi there, we're green environmental blah power company that uses sawdust and byproducts that anyways blah so can we have a license to cut a few of your last primary forests?

Makes sense right? Incentives out of UK's taxpayer pocket naturally flow to BC provincial forestry integrity office running hard to catch up, but of course! Take it all (the famous Canadian generosity). And have it at half price too, will ya? What kind of country is that? What kind of democracy?

This is a scandal nothing less: a foreign "green energy" company cuts Canadian forests to burn to generate "green" electricity (and get juicy taxpayer credit). Trees that have been growing for centuries, long before parties and ministers burnt in flash. Taxpayers there pay out, taxpayers here couldn't care less red twin or blue twin, CEO get pretty bonuses, great green chat everybody happy - and no forests.

Drax: cuts down primary forests in Canada (BBC)

There is a lot of fiction in that one.  A small number of trees are used to make pellets for pellet stoves, which is a fairly clean fuel.  It burns nicely.  I had a pellet stove for a number of years up north and loved it.  Just had to clean the stove every week.

Of course the number of pellet stoves is relatively small in the province.  Most people use natural gas, oil, or electricity to heat their home.  I'm sure they are not cutting excessive numbers of trees down in BC.   There is already a certain percentage of the old growth forests that are preserved where no logging is permitted. 

Most logging is for lumber.  The world needs homes and that is the main industry in BC.  Most of Canada is built with lumber.  It is a sustainable industry and is not in danger of running out as you and environmental radicals claim.  It is well-managed by the Ministry of Forests in BC.

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Myata has no idea about how forestry things work. I ran the Internet Cafe in town for over 20 years and from late April to July there were lineups of tree planters, 90% of the place's yearly revenue. I even had posters of Mr Peanut around town with "Planters Welcome" and directions.
There's even signs posted telling you when cuts were replanted, the ones along the highway marked 1992 were recently cut back further from the road to protect the fibre lines and create firebreaks so we don't get more forest fires the size of Belgium...

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14 hours ago, herbie said:

Myata has no idea about how forestry things work.

And one more time: how many 1,000 year old forests have been "renewed"? Can you show just one, new? With 99.9% destroyed for how long now? please do the math you know so much.

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2 hours ago, myata said:

And one more time: how many 1,000 year old forests have been "renewed"? Can you show just one, new? With 99.9% destroyed for how long now? please do the math you know so much.

Firstly, there are no 1000 year old forests. The odd 1000 year old tree here and there but no forests.

Secondly, all cutting is "renewed". Re-planting is mandatory, as others have told you.

Thirdly, "99.9% destroyed? Where did you pluck that willnot from??

No math required, only a wee bit of research. Something new for you I understand, but it does help maintain credibility....which you lose so quickly and so frequently.

Edited by ExFlyer
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45 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Secondly, all cutting is "renewed". Re-planting is mandatory, as others have told you.

This is just bullshit of course. You can't say that anything has been "renewed" until you can show it in the reality not on stupid paper. So again (st-d?): how many primary forests have been renewed around Vancouver, coast etc?

Whole country is living is some imaginary dreamspace when one honest look is enough to take in the reality. No lessons are enough, none working. Sure, there will be a wake up. A hard one, very likely in such cases.

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48 minutes ago, myata said:

This is just bullshit of course. You can't say that anything has been "renewed" until you can show it in the reality not on stupid paper. So again (st-d?): how many primary forests have been renewed around Vancouver, coast etc?

Whole country is living is some imaginary dreamspace when one honest look is enough to take in the reality. No lessons are enough, none working. Sure, there will be a wake up. A hard one, very likely in such cases.

Dig it up yourself. Reforesting is going on all the time and is very successful

2nd and 3rd growth timber is being cut and used to build the houses you are living in.

The only one in "dreamspace" is you. In your case it truly is "imaginary dreamspace".

It astounds me how one person can be so wrong about so many things and will not go to the trouble to better themselves by doing proper research. But hey, that is you over and over again LOL

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On 10/3/2022 at 8:03 AM, ExFlyer said:

Canada has nothing to trade or sell except it's resources.

All, or most, manufacturing has moved out of the country as it is no longer economical to make things here.

We even have to import workers to feed ourselves because Canadians do not want to work on farms.

This is not a government (now and back then) issue, it is a Canadian mentality (superiority?) issue.

OK Flyer...that's mostly BS.

Our Libbie leadership, including Harper unfortunately, sold our intellectual capabilities down the road.

Same goes for our manufacturing.

As for farmers, my family owned one of the last large farming operation is southern Alberta. All that land is now mostly owned by corporate farms. McCain and such. The independent farmers are a dying breed. I'm not sure who's fault that is, but the farmers don't like this development.

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17 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

OK Flyer...that's mostly BS.

Our Libbie leadership, including Harper unfortunately, sold our intellectual capabilities down the road.

Same goes for our manufacturing.

As for farmers, my family owned one of the last large farming operation is southern Alberta. All that land is now mostly owned by corporate farms. McCain and such. The independent farmers are a dying breed. I'm not sure who's fault that is, but the farmers don't like this development.

What is BS?

I said "Canada has nothing to trade or sell except it's resources. "

You seem to be agreeing with what I said.

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This is a sad example of the extremist idealism of many young people in schools and outside schools.  They have not been taught a realistic view of the world and our own province.  Some kind of false religion I would call mother earthism prevails in their mind.  Once their mind gets to that point, there is no amount of reasoning with them that will convince them of reality.  That is why we have the Greta Thunbergs and their massive followings by younger people.  Perhaps some will change their mind as they grow older and learn how the real world operates.  Others will cling to their radical ideas and oppose things which most of the world realize are essential and normal, like the energy oil and gas industry, forestry, etc.  The problem arises when enough of these extremists get into positions of power such as in the Trudeau government where Trudeau actually appointed an environmental extremist who climbed buildings or towers for Greenpeace.  This is the danger.  This is costing Canada billions in losses by the destruction of the oil and gas industry.  And costing Canadians billions of dollars with carbon taxes and radical environmental regulations.  This lowers the standard of living of all Canadians as we are now paying about $2.25 per litre for gas in B.C., the highest price in north America.  We should have had more refineries and pipelines in B.C. long ago.  The demand is there but the supply is not.

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9 minutes ago, blackbird said:

This is a sad example of the extremist idealism of many young people in schools and outside schools.  They have not been taught a realistic view of the world and our own province.  Some kind of false religion I would call mother earthism prevails in their mind.  Once their mind gets to that point, there is no amount of reasoning with them that will convince them of reality.  That is why we have the Greta Thunbergs and their massive followings by younger people.  Perhaps some will change their mind as they grow older and learn how the real world operates.  Others will cling to their radical ideas and oppose things which most of the world realize are essential and normal, like the energy oil and gas industry, forestry, etc.  The problem arises when enough of these extremists get into positions of power such as in the Trudeau government where Trudeau actually appointed an environmental extremist who climbed buildings or towers for Greenpeace.  This is the danger.  This is costing Canada billions in losses by the destruction of the oil and gas industry.  And costing Canadians billions of dollars with carbon taxes and radical environmental regulations.  This lowers the standard of living of all Canadians as we are now paying about $2.25 per litre for gas in B.C., the highest price in north America.  We should have had more refineries and pipelines in B.C. long ago.  The demand is there but the supply is not.

The problem with myata is he/she starts somewhere, get denounced, gets educated by others and wanders off to somewhere else (often to diss a ceo) then disregards those that do have valid information and try to educate him/her. Then blames others for her /his lack of education and reality :)

Oh, that is what you meant LOL

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