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Hasten registration of foreign trained medical professionals


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15 hours ago, I am Groot said:

And how good is their English? And where exactly did they graduate from? And is that institution any good? Is their degree even real? Do you not think a certain amount of testing is in order here?

This is not true. They ARE lined up to get into the medical professions. The problem has been that the medical and nursing schools can only accept as many students as the government tells them they can, and the government(s) have been restricting the numbers for many years.

Some of them, certainly. From what I've heard from nurses their big issue is the hours. For doctors the big issue is all the paperwork. Perhaps fix these two issues.

 

Very incorrect.

Medical schools, or any professions not just medical, are restricted by the number of spaces each year. The schools only have so many openings each year, not by government decree but by physical space.

In Ontario, it seems to be money. The gripe is Bill 124 ,Protecting a Sustainable Public Sector for Future Generations Act, 2019, which limited pay raises to 1% for each of the following 3 years. The nurses want it repealed to bring back nurses.

 

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2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Very incorrect.

Medical schools, or any professions not just medical, are restricted by the number of spaces each year. The schools only have so many openings each year, not by government decree but by physical space.

The government authorizes the addition of more nursing and medical school positions, as they recently did in Ontario. The government also authorizes any expansion in hospital residencies, again, as they recently did in Ontario.

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

In Ontario, it seems to be money. The gripe is Bill 124 ,Protecting a Sustainable Public Sector for Future Generations Act, 2019, which limited pay raises to 1% for each of the following 3 years. The nurses want it repealed to bring back nurses.

Naturally. But that is not the real issue. Nurses get paid nicely. The real issue is working hours and that hospitals not only insist they work long hours but won't hire permanently if they can avoid it.

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14 hours ago, Army Guy said:

I did say the following I'm sure that hospitals could answer all of your questions, Relieving the federal government of this burden. Testing could be done any where really, and it would become very evident if a on the job training program was put in place. It's not like you can fake being a medical professional.

People have, in fact, managed to fake their way into medical institutions before. And I'm not sure we want the expense of having every hospital develop its own testing procedures and then implementing it. It could get quite complicated as each specialty would need different types of testing.

https://ottawa.ctvnews.ca/woman-who-posed-as-nurse-in-ottawa-sentenced-to-seven-years-1.5872340

14 hours ago, Army Guy said:

This has already been covered by the media, do you have a source that says they are wrong?

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-nursing-schools-cant-accommodate-increase-in-demand-at-time-when/#:~:text=Nursing schools across the country,getting out of the field.

https://www.shemmassianconsulting.com/blog/medical-schools-in-canada#:~:text=There's a myth that Canadian,36 percent.

 

14 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Again this was covered in the media, the nurses and doctors recently retired and current members, they interviewed that was they're requests, along with some others I'm sure. I'm sure they did not interview every nurse and doctor across the country so answer may very in each hospital or region.  

Every time I see or read or hear a nurse complaining her issue is the hours and working conditions, not the money. The union wants more money. The nurses want to work a regular shift and be hired on permanently somewhere.

https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/an-alarming-exodus-ontario-nursing-sector-slammed-with-staffing-shortage-as-many-rethink-careers-1.5522610

Edited by I am Groot
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41 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Every time I see or read or hear a nurse complaining her issue is the hours and working conditions, not the money. The union wants more money. The nurses want to work a regular shift and be hired on permanently somewhere.

That exact thought puzzles me every time I hear it in the news. How is possible to have a critical deficit of labor in the profession and insufficient job security and permanent positions at the same time? Is it because hospital CEOs really need automatic annual bonuses on their mega-salaries? Or could it be because the place doesn't make sense, like in common sense anymore?

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2 minutes ago, Nationalist said:

An immigrant doctor should be given a mandatory 1 year course

Certainly, there are great professionals coming from abroad. That is not the question. The question is, how can we know, with reasonable and sufficient confidence? Can we just send it off to the black box bureaucracy far far away (and detached, from reality) and hope that it'll figure it out? Would that be good enough, sure?

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6 minutes ago, myata said:

Certainly, there are great professionals coming from abroad. That is not the question. The question is, how can we know, with reasonable and sufficient confidence? Can we just send it off to the black box bureaucracy far far away (and detached, from reality) and hope that it'll figure it out? Would that be good enough, sure?

Dude...if the fail the course...they find another profession. Sorta like everyone else. 

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If the training and educational standards are met, I don’t care where they’re from provided their grasp of the English language is crystal clear and 100% understood.

If not, we have quite enough convenience store cashiers and cab drivers we can’t understand now.

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8 hours ago, I am Groot said:

The government authorizes the addition of more nursing and medical school positions, as they recently did in Ontario. The government also authorizes any expansion in hospital residencies, again, as they recently did in Ontario.

Naturally. But that is not the real issue. Nurses get paid nicely. The real issue is working hours and that hospitals not only insist they work long hours but won't hire permanently if they can avoid it.

Adding in the school year 21/22.  Well we are here and it didn't happen.  It is still 4 years before they graduate. You cannot just add 1200 students to a program, no matter what government says. There is a lot more than just sitting in classrooms and getting lectures. There is not enough equipment for more students and, there are not enough teachers (also medical staff) for extra students.

 

As for doctors, Like that is going to have an impact ??

"Ontario is adding 160 undergraduate seats and 295 postgraduate positions over the next five years, the largest expansion of undergraduate and postgraduate education in over 10 years."

 

My daughter is high level in a hospital. Always looking for nurses. The primary problem is shift work. No one wants to work the 12 hour shits and especially at night. Like any job, it take a long time to get the seniority to be able to pick your shifts (and time off and vacation times). So, they leave. They go to 9 to 5 clinics or at home services. Plus, who wants to work in small towns and remote communities?

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On 8/6/2022 at 9:15 AM, ExFlyer said:

Having hospitals authorize and certify medical staff would be very ominous and, I think, impossible. They don't have staff to do regular work let alone adding an on the job training burden.. Very stringent standards and procedures and processes would have to be set up to  ensure all hospitals in the  province (country) have the same procedures. This would be a nightmare as each province now has different standards. (My daughter graduated U of O  in Ontario, had exams for Ontario licence and moved to BC and had to re-write exams and still could not do as much in BC as she was doing in Ontario and now is in NWT which is completely different too).

Ontario is providing free tuition for nurses and PSW's.

Schools are full. The problem is that only about 1/2 graduate (some reports say as few as 1/3) the 4 year nurses program. Nurses, in Ontario have been losing staff for a decade. https://rnao.ca/sites/rnao-ca/files/RNAO_RN_NP_HR_Backgrounder.pdf

I would like to know where that 15,000 foreign medical people comes from.

So, more money and they would all come back??

Justin does not have health care authority. that is provincial.

Conscription in Canada? Pie in the sky at best. There is no way that would even be considered in Canada.

 

 

 

They have interns doing the same thing like an on the job training program, why can they not do the same thing, i mean on day one of an intern ship they are observing and offering "what to do" they are not treating anyone but learning...i guy walks off the street and says he is a SAR tech, how long would it take you to find out if he is was full of bull shit, maybe a couple of minutes...

Maybe that is something that could be solved have all our medical staff come under one standard, unless there is one standard more or less, and it is just the provinces flexing their muscle, or perhaps there are some provinces that produce better doctors and nurses. 

Perhaps the feds could step in with more funding to increase the number of students and schools. 

The article I read said Less hours, more money, and able to take vacations, more access to more mental health. Not saying it is the magic pill, but it has worked in many other sectors, look at the military, after it went into reducing numbers in the late 80's FRP they were offering some good money to anyone getting out, and when they let out to many, they offered big money to bring them back in...

Justin could offer money with conditions, like he has already...

I said a program like the ones the Germans used, their happened to be tied to conscription, we could still  pay for all medical professions education, for every year of education they require then it would be one year they would have to serve the government in places of the governments choosing. need a doctor in Yellowknife here he comes. The feds could build federal hospitals " or teaching hospitals so interns would have more places to train. You get the idea, it does not have to look like this plan, but right now any plan is better than the one we have now...and I'm sure someone a lot smarter than me could figure that all out. 

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3 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Adding in the school year 21/22.  Well we are here and it didn't happen.  It is still 4 years before they graduate. You cannot just add 1200 students to a program, no matter what government says. There is a lot more than just sitting in classrooms and getting lectures. There is not enough equipment for more students and, there are not enough teachers (also medical staff) for extra students.

 

As for doctors, Like that is going to have an impact ??

"Ontario is adding 160 undergraduate seats and 295 postgraduate positions over the next five years, the largest expansion of undergraduate and postgraduate education in over 10 years."

 

My daughter is high level in a hospital. Always looking for nurses. The primary problem is shift work. No one wants to work the 12 hour shits and especially at night. Like any job, it take a long time to get the seniority to be able to pick your shifts (and time off and vacation times). So, they leave. They go to 9 to 5 clinics or at home services. Plus, who wants to work in small towns and remote communities?

Well i can tell you this, if there is not action taken then we can expect it to only get worse....we have been grinning and bearing it for years now. something needs to get done. Funding and lots of it will get results.

 

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8 hours ago, RedDog said:

If the training and educational standards are met, I don’t care where they’re from provided their grasp of the English language is crystal clear and 100% understood.

If not, we have quite enough convenience store cashiers and cab drivers we can’t understand now.

If they meet standards why not just invest in language class, it would be cheaper than training a doctor from scratch, some of the problem is some of these people need a source of income to survive, while waiting for the government which we all now is super fawst at everything, and they are working in menial jobs to feed their families. Pay the guy to learn English or French would be easier than teaching him to be a doctor. 

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On 8/4/2022 at 1:34 PM, ExFlyer said:

There is this unspoken thought that if the government offers more money nurses would pop out of the woodwork. Many hospitals are already offering signing bonuses and=with not much success so...??

No shit, locally trying to hire 9 full time nurses for almost a year. The new hospital is under construction and the ones here are leaving faster than they can be replaced. Housing, signing bonuses, full expense paid moves... nothing seems to work.

Part of the problem is most of the new ones graduating are from places like this. The LAST thing they want is to come back. Young and want to experience the world so the much touted UNBC nursing program's kind of backfired.

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8 hours ago, Army Guy said:

They have interns doing the same thing like an on the job training program, why can they not do the same thing, i mean on day one of an intern ship they are observing and offering "what to do" they are not treating anyone but learning...i guy walks off the street and says he is a SAR tech, how long would it take you to find out if he is was full of bull shit, maybe a couple of minutes...

Maybe that is something that could be solved have all our medical staff come under one standard, unless there is one standard more or less, and it is just the provinces flexing their muscle, or perhaps there are some provinces that produce better doctors and nurses. 

Perhaps the feds could step in with more funding to increase the number of students and schools. 

The article I read said Less hours, more money, and able to take vacations, more access to more mental health. Not saying it is the magic pill, but it has worked in many other sectors, look at the military, after it went into reducing numbers in the late 80's FRP they were offering some good money to anyone getting out, and when they let out to many, they offered big money to bring them back in...

Justin could offer money with conditions, like he has already...

I said a program like the ones the Germans used, their happened to be tied to conscription, we could still  pay for all medical professions education, for every year of education they require then it would be one year they would have to serve the government in places of the governments choosing. need a doctor in Yellowknife here he comes. The feds could build federal hospitals " or teaching hospitals so interns would have more places to train. You get the idea, it does not have to look like this plan, but right now any plan is better than the one we have now...and I'm sure someone a lot smarter than me could figure that all out. 

Doctors internship (residency) happens after formal schooling and lasts 3 to 7 years.

There is one standard but, provinces are the health authorities in this country and they have additional requirements and standards. my daughter graduated from U of O and worked in Ontario for a while, moved to BC, and had to write the BC licence and was able to do less than in Ontario and now in the NWT, it is different again.

Ontario is paying nurses and PSW education.

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7 hours ago, herbie said:

No shit, locally trying to hire 9 full time nurses for almost a year. The new hospital is under construction and the ones here are leaving faster than they can be replaced. Housing, signing bonuses, full expense paid moves... nothing seems to work.

Part of the problem is most of the new ones graduating are from places like this. The LAST thing they want is to come back. Young and want to experience the world so the much touted UNBC nursing program's kind of backfired.

Your communities plight is not unique. My daughter is Yellowknife NWT and a constant part of the job is to find nurses and medical staff. They pay transportation, room and board, huge wages and benefits and they cannot get anyone to come up there.

It is not UNBC that is to blame. Young people just do not want to go to small towns and remote communities.

 

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20 hours ago, Nationalist said:

Dude...if the fail the course...

Just developing the curriculum for the level of confidence that is needed would be a formidable task. To add practical exams (how to do an injection, do you want to know that your doctor actually can?) that's more training stuff and how else bureaucracy. You're trying to solve the problem (not a fact that it'll work) by adding more convolution and more cost. Or rubberstamping in the bureaucratic office and there, crisis solved.

Again why does it need to be done convoluted, through the ear down back hole way (as pretty much anything here these days)? Why couldn't enough medical professionals be trained and have good permanent jobs here? Why cannot the system that's costing outrageous money to the taxpayer just do what it was intended to do, effectively, efficiently and competently? Where is the problem?

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6 minutes ago, myata said:

Just developing the curriculum for the level of confidence that is needed would be a formidable task. To add practical exams (how to do an injection, do you want to know that your doctor actually can?) that's more training stuff and how else bureaucracy. You're trying to solve the problem (not a fact that it'll work) by adding more convolution and more cost. Or rubberstamping in the bureaucratic office and there, crisis solved.

Again why does it need to be done convoluted, through the ear down back hole way (as pretty much anything here these days)? Why couldn't enough medical professionals be trained and have good permanent jobs here? Why cannot the system that's costing outrageous money to the taxpayer just do what it was intended to do, effectively, efficiently and competently? Where is the problem?

I'd have thought that's obvious. The Trudeau government isn't interested in your health. They're interested in the planet's health. They're gonna save the world...

By crapping on their citizens. 

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15 hours ago, Army Guy said:

If they meet standards why not just invest in language class, it would be cheaper than training a doctor from scratch, some of the problem is some of these people need a source of income to survive, while waiting for the government which we all now is super fawst at everything, and they are working in menial jobs to feed their families. Pay the guy to learn English or French would be easier than teaching him to be a doctor. 

There is no need whatsoever to learn French here since this is not France. French belongs in France.

Being clearly understood in English is vital in Canada and North America. French is irrelevant here.

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There is no incentive for the licensing bodies to streamline their processes. Every time a bad apple gets through they’re under pressure to tighten up standards etc. Of course the paradox is that a more difficult pathway to medical licensure does not necessarily mean better health care for Canadians if it cuts off the supply of good foreign doctors. Increasingly, international medical grads look at our fiendishly tedious system and say, forget it, I’ll go to NZ, Britain or Ireland instead. Ontario’s College is notoriously difficult to deal with, far less efficient than the British equivalent. BTW Britain has one medical licensing authority for 65 million people and we have 13 for 35. Some efficiencies could surely be made there? The current test of English used in Canada is IMO too stringent. We had an excellent candidate who had just passed her Canadian fellowship exam in English with no problem and then refused to do the test for provincial licensure because her friend who spoke better English than she did had just failed it. We were having the entire conversation about this in English which she spoke more than fluently enough for the job. 
 

Canada is running out of GPs, esp. in rural areas, and Canadian grads don’t want to work there. An increased supply of the following has to be provided immediately: private care, nurse practitioners, foreign doctors, telemedicine and much better incentives for local grads to try the outback. Otherwise more people are just going to die quietly at home without any medical intervention. 

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5 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

There is no incentive for the licensing bodies to streamline their processes.

That summarizes it pretty neatly. Everywhere, and anywhere in public management too. Now where would this take us in the next step? Anybody wants to find out?

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14 minutes ago, myata said:

That summarizes it pretty neatly. Everywhere, and anywhere in public management too. Now where would this take us in the next step? Anybody wants to find out?

Here’s one example. When applying for a new job I had to get letters of good standing from every jurisdiction I was ever licensed in. I had worked in the UK thirty years before that but they dug out my records and sent on the cert free of charge within a few days. By contrast, I never worked in Ontario, just held a license there, so there was really no conduct for them to review. After a considerable delay they wrote back saying they would do nothing until I sent them my credit card details. Needless to say, when dealing with outright foreigners they are far worse. 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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It's definitely not University's fault there's a shortage, they're all graduating nurses. UNBC predicted shortages and began the program over a decade ago.

But as usual the powers that be studied and yapped, talked made $1 million reports and did dick shit until this 'boomer retirement boom' and Covid turned it into an absolute crisis. Now the big cities are starting to see what's been happening in the ROC for decades.

I laugh when I see TV reports that the hospital in Clearwater has closed it's Emergency for X number of days. That's been happening so much for so long in all the smaller places they came up with a new word. The Emergency's not "closed", it's "on Diversion"... which means the same damn thing! Damn it I lived here for over a decade before I even heard of anyone local that survived a heart attack.

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1 hour ago, herbie said:

I laugh when I see TV reports that the hospital in Clearwater has closed it's Emergency for X number of days.

This is our problem isn't it? It's the third world right here, quality, accessibility, delivery. With executive mega salaries need to attract the brightest! out of any connection to the results delivered, same pattern. But we are trying so very hard to pretend that it's something else. Only temporarily, just fix it. No let's find another word, see the difference. Oh well...

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Sorry but it's nowhere near Third World. It's not nearly good enough but still better than what most have. WE have to quickly accredit and approve foreign trained doctors and nurse for the short term and start fixing the little things that make more people enter those professions, where they are needed, right f***ing now!

I'm not happy that when I brought the wife there was no doctor available, no nurse qualified to drain her lung and an ambulance sitting in the entrance with no one to take her to the big city until morning, no. Not the least but happy. But such supposedly occasional things are becoming too frequent. How will the new hospital be better if they can't staff this smaller one?

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Most of med school could be taught online. John Minarcik has been doing this in pathology for years free of charge and there’s no reason why anatomy, physiology, microbiology, pharmacology and biochemistry couldn’t be done this way too.
 

https://www.medicalschoolpathology.com

 

Much of clinical medicine could also be taught this way at a fraction of the current cost. The medical education industry needs a revolution yesterday. Yes, we need standards but we also need disruptive innovation. 

 

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